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Sooo... does this mean a Red Corsairs CSM blob that I bring back to the table with the 'More where they came from' strat can no longer advance and charge because it loses the legion trait?
Q: If a unit is added to my Battle-forged army during the battle,
is it ever considered to be part of a Detachment?
A: No, units that are added to your army during the battle
are never part of any Detachment (this means they will
never benefit from any Detachment abilities).
Concerning units that are removed and then set up again elsewhere: Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the[...] More Where They
Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), [...]. These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units
being repositioned on the battlefield.
Concerns tactical restraint but addresses distinctions between reinforcements and added units: “no part of (tactical reserves) applies to units that are added to your army during the battle (such as those that require reinforcement points to be added); these units cannot be set up anywhere (on the battlefield or otherwise) during deployment because they do not exist until the point where the rule that ‘creates’ them is used, and that point is always after deployment has finished.”
Colour me confused...
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
Anyone who didn't know oblits were a typo and were going to be 115 was pretty dumb. That being said it's obvious the 115 points was written prior to CA 2018 and was waaaaayyyy overpriced.
And i'm still not seeing anywhere about locking renegades chapters into one god. I just triple checked. There isn't even a Vigilus ablaze FAQ on the FAQ site, the first one in the list is shadowspear. The Chaos FAQ only locks world eaters and Emperors Children into a specific god.
Lastly, yeah i believe Lord Discordants now get legion traits. My Corsairs LD is happy to be able to advance and charge...too bad demon engines still don't get it. I guess we can't all be Eldar/IG and asking for some rules consistency is too much.
Thank you. For some reason it's not listed on the FAQ page, unless you switch to a language other than english, then it's there.
Removed - BrookM
In their own commentary they've stated that the legion/renegade traits "allow you to play your own chapter, just pick whichever trait feels fit's your custom chapter closest" this has always been the case. No other army, not a single one, outside chaos has restrictions put on which chapter/faction/legion/ect trait you can pick. Once again chaos getting the shaft. Seriously what harm would there be in letting people play whichever trait they want in an army for their own chapter? Every single army in the game is built that way so that you can homebrew your own fluff and paint your dudes however you see fit, then just pick the trait which best fits your fluff as long as you follow the rules of the trait.
You can paint your dudes however you want. You aren't getting shafted. You do, however, have play the rules as GW writes them and not benefit from things they didn't intend. The flawless host has been in the fluff for a while now. They have been a Slaanesh dedicated warband the entire time. You can paint your guys however you and and use them as Flawless host- they just have to be Slaanesh. Just like Emperor's Children have to be Slaanesh marked.
Nobody is getting shafted. To think you could just cherry pick units, strats, etc and use a god dedicated warbands rules is what is/was ridiculous.
This is a great move by GW. Keeps the game aligned with the fluff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 20:59:24
Snugiraffe wrote: Sooo... does this mean a Red Corsairs CSM blob that I bring back to the table with the 'More where they came from' strat can no longer advance and charge because it loses the legion trait?
Q: If a unit is added to my Battle-forged army during the battle,
is it ever considered to be part of a Detachment?
A: No, units that are added to your army during the battle
are never part of any Detachment (this means they will
never benefit from any Detachment abilities).
Concerning units that are removed and then set up again elsewhere: Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the[...] More Where They
Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), [...]. These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units
being repositioned on the battlefield.
Concerns tactical restraint but addresses distinctions between reinforcements and added units: “no part of (tactical reserves) applies to units that are added to your army during the battle (such as those that require reinforcement points to be added); these units cannot be set up anywhere (on the battlefield or otherwise) during deployment because they do not exist until the point where the rule that ‘creates’ them is used, and that point is always after deployment has finished.”
Colour me confused...
Debatable certainly.
Whilst they "represent" new units. They aren't reinforcements, so wouldn't immediately assume that rules for reinforcements apply. You aren't adding a new unit to your army explicitly.
Ok so I'm a little behind on things (haven't done anything in 40k since a while before the first vigilus book), and I was just wondering if anything had been shaken up with regards to Raptors and Warp Talons (who were both garbage and unusable back then, unfortunately, as I like them as fluffy units).
The main issue being neither were able to reliably get into combat, and neither had enough killiness to really do much. I think plasma-raptors were the only vaguely useful option at the time?
But after Ablaze and todays' de-nerfing, there's been some changes it seems...
For a start, today (i think it was today) they removed the nerf that prevented FLY units from being able to move over other models, so they can now get to the back lines etc just as they used to which is nice.
Also in Ablaze I noticed a couple useful Warlord Traits -
Cult of the Damned - reroll charges within 6"
Raptorial - +2 to charge rolls
Either of these would seem to help out Talons especially, and removed the points tax of having to take a daemon detachment for the khorne locus (freeing up a bunch of points for other things). Means jumping your warlord in with the talons though, but I mean... you're chaos, if you're not biting people's faces off you're doing it wrong!
Not sure it's anywhere near enough to make Talons/Raptors usable, but thought I'd reopen the discussion. I read back a few pages and I hadn't seen anything much mentioned lately
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nightlord1987 wrote: Where is the updated Cultist datasheet (and legion trait nerf) for us with the old codex?
I thought this would make it into the FAQs.
Cultists were changed? Havent seen any referance to this anywhere. And the Legion Trait nerf? Only thing I saw is it now gives a trait to Lords Discordant, which would seem to be a buff? What else have I missed lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 20:25:28
Snugiraffe wrote: Sooo... does this mean a Red Corsairs CSM blob that I bring back to the table with the 'More where they came from' strat can no longer advance and charge because it loses the legion trait?
Q: If a unit is added to my Battle-forged army during the battle,
is it ever considered to be part of a Detachment?
A: No, units that are added to your army during the battle
are never part of any Detachment (this means they will
never benefit from any Detachment abilities).
Concerning units that are removed and then set up again elsewhere: Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the[...] More Where They
Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), [...]. These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units
being repositioned on the battlefield.
Concerns tactical restraint but addresses distinctions between reinforcements and added units: “no part of (tactical reserves) applies to units that are added to your army during the battle (such as those that require reinforcement points to be added); these units cannot be set up anywhere (on the battlefield or otherwise) during deployment because they do not exist until the point where the rule that ‘creates’ them is used, and that point is always after deployment has finished.”
Colour me confused...
Debatable certainly.
Whilst they "represent" new units. They aren't reinforcements, so wouldn't immediately assume that rules for reinforcements apply. You aren't adding a new unit to your army explicitly.
I was wondering the same thing. From C:CSM:
"If your army is Battle-forged, all Daemon Prince, Infantry, Bikers and Helbrute units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain a Legion Trait so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion."
The way I read it was, we have a rule about Legion traits that applies to very specifically to detachments. This rule does not apply to any unit that is not in a detachment.
Another funny one, for Despoilers of the Galaxy: "If your army is battle-forged, all Troops units in Chaos Space Marine Detachments gain this ability."
So it looks like we can now take Twin-Linked Lascannons on Hellforged Contemptors, and can also take big guns on both arms for them now. And can add a havoc launcher without replacing anything. Does this make this unit worthwhile?
Chaos Decimator with dual Butcher cannons is 140. Contemptor with dual Butcher cannons is 166. The decimator has 1 more attack, heals, and has the Daemon keyword. The Contemptor has an extra WS and BS, but they both degrade, and so does its movement. It can heal from melee kills and has a better invul in melee. And it can get Legion traits, meaning as alpha legion they are pretty nasty.
EDIT: Missed that the Contemptor went down in cost. It's 138, not 166.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 00:21:51
New Chaos Space Marine codex errata. Page 1, bottom right column.
Well gak.
Probably final nail in the Oblits as is.
Oblits are just fine at 115 points. It makes their weapons profile balanced as compared to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, and their survivability per point. And then they gain huge benefits from strat and buff synergy. They could be 130pts and still be worth using.
If you play a legion that can mark slaanesh, yes. If you play anything other than slaanesh, they're massively overcosted. Which shows the balance issues when you determine point costs based on strategems, especially stratagems that are faction locked. If it was a general strategem any chaos player could use it might be a different story. Same issue with eh LD being great....but only if you play black legion, otherwise it's half as survivable.
Either of these would seem to help out Talons especially, and removed the points tax of having to take a daemon detachment for the khorne locus (freeing up a bunch of points for other things). Means jumping your warlord in with the talons though, but I mean... you're chaos, if you're not biting people's faces off you're doing it wrong!
Not sure it's anywhere near enough to make Talons/Raptors usable, but thought I'd reopen the discussion. I read back a few pages and I hadn't seen anything much mentioned lately
Cultists were changed? Havent seen any referance to this anywhere. And the Legion Trait nerf? Only thing I saw is it now gives a trait to Lords Discordant, which would seem to be a buff? What else have I missed lol.
Jumping in a Lord with Warp Talons will allow the WTs to take the edge of any overwatch fire for the Lord. There's some nice builds available now, especially the Black Legion chainlord.
Cultists now get the 'Mere Mortals' rule, stating they do not benefit from legion traits. Which is absolutely in line with the fluff. Sadly, you still get to pay 5 pts/model for them.
Legion traits for Lords Discordant is hilarious. I'm finding it hard to believe that that was intentional. But I can't think of any other reason to change the wording for whom legion traits apply to.
@techsoldaten: Nice catch with the ObSec It's like the recycled CSM are just a bunch of renegades who turned up to the fight by accident and don't have orders or battlefield intel. Like partycrashers or something. You just can't have a decent barbecue anywhere near the Maelstrom these days...
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
Anyone who didn't know oblits were a typo and were going to be 115 was pretty dumb. That being said it's obvious the 115 points was written prior to CA 2018 and was waaaaayyyy overpriced.
And i'm still not seeing anywhere about locking renegades chapters into one god. I just triple checked. There isn't even a Vigilus ablaze FAQ on the FAQ site, the first one in the list is shadowspear. The Chaos FAQ only locks world eaters and Emperors Children into a specific god.
Lastly, yeah i believe Lord Discordants now get legion traits. My Corsairs LD is happy to be able to advance and charge...too bad demon engines still don't get it. I guess we can't all be Eldar/IG and asking for some rules consistency is too much.
Thank you. For some reason it's not listed on the FAQ page, unless you switch to a language other than english, then it's there.
Removed - BrookM
In their own commentary they've stated that the legion/renegade traits "allow you to play your own chapter, just pick whichever trait feels fit's your custom chapter closest" this has always been the case. No other army, not a single one, outside chaos has restrictions put on which chapter/faction/legion/ect trait you can pick. Once again chaos getting the shaft. Seriously what harm would there be in letting people play whichever trait they want in an army for their own chapter? Every single army in the game is built that way so that you can homebrew your own fluff and paint your dudes however you see fit, then just pick the trait which best fits your fluff as long as you follow the rules of the trait.
You can paint your dudes however you want. You aren't getting shafted. You do, however, have play the rules as GW writes them and not benefit from things they didn't intend. The flawless host has been in the fluff for a while now. They have been a Slaanesh dedicated warband the entire time. You can paint your guys however you and and use them as Flawless host- they just have to be Slaanesh. Just like Emperor's Children have to be Slaanesh marked.
Nobody is getting shafted. To think you could just cherry pick units, strats, etc and use a god dedicated warbands rules is what is/was ridiculous.
This is a great move by GW. Keeps the game aligned with the fluff.
everything you said is incorrect. Either you didn't read, didn't understand, or didn't bother.
No one is advocating cherry picking unis, strats, ect. Nowhere did i say or even imply that you should be able to pick emperors children trait, brazen bull strategems, and relics from red corsairs. Simply that you should be able to use all of a legion/chapters rules exactly as written, without being locked in to that specific chapters lore, as GW themselves even stated you could. Or did you miss the part where GW has in every release stated that those chapters/factions/cults ect aren't meant to represent only those but to represent a style of play, so if you play your own chapter you can pick any of the current trait sets to represent them.
Tell me, are bad moon orks restricted to only shootey units? that's fluffy, they should be by your logic.
No it's not a great move, it kills personalized warbands/chapters/ect. You sound like one of those guys who thinks every army must be painted exactly how their pictured on the GW box art and throws a fit if a guy shows up with an army painted orange with his own chapter lore and uses the salamanders rules. "BUT THEY"RE NOT GREEN! THAT"S NOT FLUFF!!!" People like you wreck the hobby.
Nothing about not forcing a god choice is cherry picking or breaks the game in any way. So what, you can't play your own renegade legion? you can't play any legion other than those listed, not for rules reasons but because you're hung up on the name just like whatever unthinking fool at GW made this rule? To think that creating an arbitrary restriction that only applies to chaos armies with no purpose and that kills players ability to lore up their own chapter for their dudes is ridiculous. Or are you advocating they go change all the other armies to remove all ability to customize how you play? "oh can't use aberrents in pauper prince factions because in the story pauper princes don't have aberrents." and crap like that?
There's no valid reason i shouldn't be able to play with all the emperors children rules but paint my dudes gold and call them the Sphincter Surfers of Aguilon 12, using the EC rules to represent how they're so eager they always fight first. Nothing about that is doing anything that breaks rules or manipulates rules to get an advantage. And that's what you seem to be failing to seperate, you seem to be under the impression that not following these asinine fluff rules get's some advantage, it doesn't, it's mearly to help foster people to create their own attachment to their armies. But now GW is setting a precedent that they haven't done with literraly any other army, where they're writing rules to disallow creating your own lore. Again something they've not done with any other army in the game.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 20:59:41
Nightlord1987 wrote: Where is the updated Cultist datasheet (and legion trait nerf) for us with the old codex?
I thought this would make it into the FAQs.
Cultists were changed? Havent seen any referance to this anywhere. And the Legion Trait nerf? Only thing I saw is it now gives a trait to Lords Discordant, which would seem to be a buff? What else have I missed lol.
Vigilus Ablaze and the updated CSM Codex have a rule that Cultists don't benefit from Legion Traits as well as lowering the max number of Cultists in a unit. Not sure why Nightlord thought they would make it into the FAQ, though.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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New Chaos Space Marine codex errata. Page 1, bottom right column.
Well gak.
Probably final nail in the Oblits as is.
Oblits are just fine at 115 points. It makes their weapons profile balanced as compared to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, and their survivability per point. And then they gain huge benefits from strat and buff synergy. They could be 130pts and still be worth using.
If you play a legion that can mark slaanesh, yes. If you play anything other than slaanesh, they're massively overcosted. Which shows the balance issues when you determine point costs based on strategems, especially stratagems that are faction locked. If it was a general strategem any chaos player could use it might be a different story. Same issue with eh LD being great....but only if you play black legion, otherwise it's half as survivable.
No. Even without strats being factored in, they are almost exactly internally balanced against other similar unit options at 115pts. I say they would be worthwhile at 130 due to strats, but they don't need strats to be worthwhile at 115. Unless you want to claim that ALL of Chaos's heavy options are bad. Which may well be true, but I'm not convinced.
New Chaos Space Marine codex errata. Page 1, bottom right column.
Well gak.
Probably final nail in the Oblits as is.
Oblits are just fine at 115 points. It makes their weapons profile balanced as compared to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, and their survivability per point. And then they gain huge benefits from strat and buff synergy. They could be 130pts and still be worth using.
If you play a legion that can mark slaanesh, yes. If you play anything other than slaanesh, they're massively overcosted. Which shows the balance issues when you determine point costs based on strategems, especially stratagems that are faction locked. If it was a general strategem any chaos player could use it might be a different story. Same issue with eh LD being great....but only if you play black legion, otherwise it's half as survivable.
No. Even without strats being factored in, they are almost exactly internally balanced against other similar unit options at 115pts. I say they would be worthwhile at 130 due to strats, but they don't need strats to be worthwhile at 115. Unless you want to claim that ALL of Chaos's heavy options are bad. Which may well be true, but I'm not convinced.
just compare the points vs output of oblits vs havocs, or oblits vs broadsides, or oblits vs well...literally almost any heavy shooting oriented unit. I'm not saying they should be 65, that was stupidly too cheap, to the point that anyone using 65 points was not the kind of person worth playing against as it was obviously a typo. But 115 is also too expensive. somewhere around 95 points seems to be a general consensus of where they should be.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 22:39:52
New Chaos Space Marine codex errata. Page 1, bottom right column.
Well gak.
Probably final nail in the Oblits as is.
Oblits are just fine at 115 points. It makes their weapons profile balanced as compared to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, and their survivability per point. And then they gain huge benefits from strat and buff synergy. They could be 130pts and still be worth using.
If you play a legion that can mark slaanesh, yes. If you play anything other than slaanesh, they're massively overcosted. Which shows the balance issues when you determine point costs based on strategems, especially stratagems that are faction locked. If it was a general strategem any chaos player could use it might be a different story. Same issue with eh LD being great....but only if you play black legion, otherwise it's half as survivable.
No. Even without strats being factored in, they are almost exactly internally balanced against other similar unit options at 115pts. I say they would be worthwhile at 130 due to strats, but they don't need strats to be worthwhile at 115. Unless you want to claim that ALL of Chaos's heavy options are bad. Which may well be true, but I'm not convinced.
just compare the points vs output of oblits vs havocs, or oblits vs broadsides, or oblits vs well...literally almost any heavy shooting oriented unit. I'm not saying they should be 65, that was stupidly too cheap, to the point that anyone using 65 points was not the kind of person worth playing against as it was obviously a typo. But 115 is also too expensive. somewhere around 95 points seems to be a general consensus of where they should be.
Nah man I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. I literally ran those numbers, along with a lot of other ones, about 20 pages back in this thread. And what was found is that Oblits measure up almost exactly to havocs and combi-plasma terminators, point for point, in both firepower and durability while at 115. Havocs have slightly more firepower depending on their weapon, but slightly less durability. Combi-plas terminators have a bit more firepower and durability, but less range. They all line up really appropriately with slightly different strengths/weaknesses, but all of them averaging out about the same. If oblits are any cheaper, then they are flat out better. And that's BEFORE you account for all the buffs they can get due to having <Daemon>, and before you account for stratagems.
One big change that does somewhat hurt Oblits is that they have to roll new stats for their guns every time they shoot, so no rolling god numbers and then using Endless Cacophony to shoot again with the same stats. Same thing happened to Ork Lootas (they have to roll for number of shots each time they shoot, including with Showin' Off).
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 25 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
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The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
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rayphoton wrote: What is the build for this "Black Legion Chain Lord" I keep seeing pop up?
BL chaos lord with ghorisvex teeth relic chainsword from vigilus ablaze and flames of spite WLT, mark of khorne. You can use him on a bike, or with JP. Use VOTLW on him, and the dark apostle prayer soultearer portent for +2 to wound. You get 6 attacks hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1s. Any 4+ to wound will do 2 MW, in addition to normal damage. Use the khorne fight again stratagem to get more attacks. Possible variation is on juggernaut of khorne, you lose VOTLW, but you gain more attacks from the mount. Cast diabolic strength on him for another attack, replace his bolt pistol for another chainsword, for another attack, which only does 1 MW on a 4+ to wound.
115 points for Oblits
Renegades are locked to specific gods.
For those that have been playing their oblits at 115? Do you still feel like they're worth the investment?
Where did you find that renegades are locked to specific gods? I can't find the errata for vigilus ablaze, which I imagine would be the right one.
In the vigilus ablaze FAQ. For me, it's the first one amongst 40kFAQs on the Warhammer community website.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The way I understand the CSMFAQ, legion traits now apply to "Characters", so Lord Discordants benefit from them.
With a built in +1 to-hit, I'm really tempted by a flawless host supreme command.
Anyone who didn't know oblits were a typo and were going to be 115 was pretty dumb. That being said it's obvious the 115 points was written prior to CA 2018 and was waaaaayyyy overpriced.
And i'm still not seeing anywhere about locking renegades chapters into one god. I just triple checked. There isn't even a Vigilus ablaze FAQ on the FAQ site, the first one in the list is shadowspear. The Chaos FAQ only locks world eaters and Emperors Children into a specific god.
Lastly, yeah i believe Lord Discordants now get legion traits. My Corsairs LD is happy to be able to advance and charge...too bad demon engines still don't get it. I guess we can't all be Eldar/IG and asking for some rules consistency is too much.
Thank you. For some reason it's not listed on the FAQ page, unless you switch to a language other than english, then it's there.
Removed - BrookM
In their own commentary they've stated that the legion/renegade traits "allow you to play your own chapter, just pick whichever trait feels fit's your custom chapter closest" this has always been the case. No other army, not a single one, outside chaos has restrictions put on which chapter/faction/legion/ect trait you can pick. Once again chaos getting the shaft. Seriously what harm would there be in letting people play whichever trait they want in an army for their own chapter? Every single army in the game is built that way so that you can homebrew your own fluff and paint your dudes however you see fit, then just pick the trait which best fits your fluff as long as you follow the rules of the trait.
You can paint your dudes however you want. You aren't getting shafted. You do, however, have play the rules as GW writes them and not benefit from things they didn't intend. The flawless host has been in the fluff for a while now. They have been a Slaanesh dedicated warband the entire time. You can paint your guys however you and and use them as Flawless host- they just have to be Slaanesh. Just like Emperor's Children have to be Slaanesh marked.
Nobody is getting shafted. To think you could just cherry pick units, strats, etc and use a god dedicated warbands rules is what is/was ridiculous.
This is a great move by GW. Keeps the game aligned with the fluff.
everything you said is incorrect. Either you didn't read, didn't understand, or didn't bother.
No one is advocating cherry picking unis, strats, ect. Nowhere did i say or even imply that you should be able to pick emperors children trait, brazen bull strategems, and relics from red corsairs. Simply that you should be able to use all of a legion/chapters rules exactly as written, without being locked in to that specific chapters lore, as GW themselves even stated you could. Or did you miss the part where GW has in every release stated that those chapters/factions/cults ect aren't meant to represent only those but to represent a style of play, so if you play your own chapter you can pick any of the current trait sets to represent them.
Tell me, are bad moon orks restricted to only shootey units? that's fluffy, they should be by your logic.
No it's not a great move, it kills personalized warbands/chapters/ect. You sound like one of those guys who thinks every army must be painted exactly how their pictured on the GW box art and throws a fit if a guy shows up with an army painted orange with his own chapter lore and uses the salamanders rules. "BUT THEY"RE NOT GREEN! THAT"S NOT FLUFF!!!" People like you wreck the hobby.
Nothing about not forcing a god choice is cherry picking or breaks the game in any way. So what, you can't play your own renegade legion? you can't play any legion other than those listed, not for rules reasons but because you're hung up on the name just like whatever unthinking fool at GW made this rule? To think that creating an arbitrary restriction that only applies to chaos armies with no purpose and that kills players ability to lore up their own chapter for their dudes is ridiculous. Or are you advocating they go change all the other armies to remove all ability to customize how you play? "oh can't use aberrents in pauper prince factions because in the story pauper princes don't have aberrents." and crap like that?
There's no valid reason i shouldn't be able to play with all the emperors children rules but paint my dudes gold and call them the Sphincter Surfers of Aguilon 12, using the EC rules to represent how they're so eager they always fight first. Nothing about that is doing anything that breaks rules or manipulates rules to get an advantage. And that's what you seem to be failing to seperate, you seem to be under the impression that not following these asinine fluff rules get's some advantage, it doesn't, it's mearly to help foster people to create their own attachment to their armies. But now GW is setting a precedent that they haven't done with literraly any other army, where they're writing rules to disallow creating your own lore. Again something they've not done with any other army in the game.
Are you for real dude? Seriously?
Nobody is saying you have to paint your guys a certain way. I never said anything like that if you would actually look at what was posted. Paint schemes don't matter. Picking a warbands because you like the rules to represent your own warband is great! Do it! However, certain warbands and legions, in fluff, are dedicated to a single god. You gotta take that into account.
What I am saying is that you want to play Flawless host, a slaanesh marked warband, you should have to mark them of slaanesh. Maybe I didn't explain it. Same as emperor's children have to marked of slaanesh. You can't come up with your own lore, bio's for the commanders, unit markings, paint scheme, etc. But if you want to use the rules of a certain chapter, legion, warband, etc, you have to mark them appropriately.
How is that a big deal?
Its not.
Nobody is saying you have to paint your guys in a codex approved manner or can't come up with your own lore. Get a grip.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/30 20:59:58
Nobody is talking about the big nerf that Castellans received? Raise ion shields can now no longer buff invul save to better than a 4++. And Castellans are now 100 points more expensive. We may see less Castellans now in lists, and even those with them have 100 points less to play with, and the Castellans are slightly easier to destroy now.
This increases the viability of vehicles a lot more now. So, conversely, a daemon engine theme list just got stronger now because one of its biggest "counters" just got nerfed.
Combine this with legion traits applying to Characters now, so LD also got a buff. Daemon Engine lists are looking more and more interesting.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Nobody is talking about the big nerf that Castellans received? Raise ion shields can now no longer buff invul save to better than a 4++. And Castellans are now 100 points more expensive. We may see less Castellans now in lists, and even those with them have 100 points less to play with, and the Castellans are slightly easier to destroy now.
This increases the viability of vehicles a lot more now. So, conversely, a daemon engine theme list just got stronger now because one of its biggest "counters" just got nerfed.
Combine this with legion traits applying to Characters now, so LD also got a buff. Daemon Engine lists are looking more and more interesting.
And the Plague Hulk now has Legion, so it can be taken in CSM detachments! I'm not sure it's worth it of course. It's like 50% more expensive than the defiler, but it's got t8, 5+++, and nice weapons.
Huge buff to the Lord Dischordant to get access to Legion traits. Flawless Host will have him triggering Death to the Imperfect on a 5+ even without any other boosts. The Flawless Host Prince we discussed earlier will actually get outperformed by such a Lord.
LD has the same weaknesses as before. Yes he got buffed, but I think he will always be balanced by the fact that he is a 12W T6 character that can be targeted.
You probably won't win the game just with spamming 3 LDs. But as part of a daemon engine theme list, that has possibilities. And it would be because of the entire lists effort, not just the LDs on their own.
I don't think anyone was surprised by the Oblits points FAQ. It was obviously a printing error. They are reasonably priced within lists built in a certain way. You have to build around them if you bring Oblits, and they are priced based on a unit of 3 can do with strategems and support added on. Let's not forget that Castellans got nerfed. Again, the meta may change into one where Oblits get to shine more compared with previously.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/30 04:12:49
I am curious if LD can actually be competitive. Not as in "the absolute best thing ever" but as in "can be featured in competitive lists as part of chaos soup and be genuinely helpful". That -1 ALLD really does seem like in a trio he could be really good.
I am very excited about that new Slaanesh Mirror as well, splashing advance+charge onto them from an allied detachment. I think I am pretty heavily leaning into a supreme command alpha legion with 3 LDs, a cheap daemons slaanesh bat with a mirror and a DP and then either the standard TS Ahriman + 2 DPs or a CP red corsairs group.
Pretty much universally good changes for Chaos here. Oblit changes were always going to happen and as pointed out they are still really good.
A few huge meta things that favour us imo:
1. Castellan nerf, helping our daemon engines and dreadnoughts survive, while improving our shooting across the board vis a vis the Knight.
2. Flyer nerf means it's harder to control the board with those oppressive 5+ flyer lists. Especially good for daemon engines but also useful for melee infantry.
3. Eldar + Ynnari nerf. DE no longer can benefit from the awesome CWE powers and Ynnari got kicked in the nuts.
4. Flying units can now charge across screens. This one means more Smash Captains to deal with but at the same time makes our own DPs, Jump Lords and Raptors/Talons better.
Could summoning actually be good now that a MoP can move + summon? I don't know. There's still a problem of a 9" charge. It could be good with a blob of 30 PBs or Horrors for board control / shooting respectively. Bloodletters you still definitely want in a detachment with the icon strat but maybe if you just want to bring a Greater Daemon it could work out (if you have the buffs to get the roll).
Eldenfirefly wrote: Nobody is talking about the big nerf that Castellans received? Raise ion shields can now no longer buff invul save to better than a 4++. And Castellans are now 100 points more expensive. We may see less Castellans now in lists, and even those with them have 100 points less to play with, and the Castellans are slightly easier to destroy now.
This increases the viability of vehicles a lot more now. So, conversely, a daemon engine theme list just got stronger now because one of its biggest "counters" just got nerfed.
Combine this with legion traits applying to Characters now, so LD also got a buff. Daemon Engine lists are looking more and more interesting.
And the Plague Hulk now has Legion, so it can be taken in CSM detachments! I'm not sure it's worth it of course. It's like 50% more expensive than the defiler, but it's got t8, 5+++, and nice weapons.
.defiler does seem better. The Plague hulk does have the advantage that it can be summoned, with might have some synergy with MoP/ greater possessed.
Also I just realised that a MoP can summon and then occupy a Skull Altar. 16" +1 attack aura for <KHORNE DAEMON> units worth it? Could be hilarious with a unit of Possessed.
everything you said is incorrect. Either you didn't read, didn't understand, or didn't bother.
No one is advocating cherry picking unis, strats, ect. Nowhere did i say or even imply that you should be able to pick emperors children trait, brazen bull strategems, and relics from red corsairs. Simply that you should be able to use all of a legion/chapters rules exactly as written, without being locked in to that specific chapters lore, as GW themselves even stated you could. Or did you miss the part where GW has in every release stated that those chapters/factions/cults ect aren't meant to represent only those but to represent a style of play, so if you play your own chapter you can pick any of the current trait sets to represent them.
Tell me, are bad moon orks restricted to only shootey units? that's fluffy, they should be by your logic.
No it's not a great move, it kills personalized warbands/chapters/ect. You sound like one of those guys who thinks every army must be painted exactly how their pictured on the GW box art and throws a fit if a guy shows up with an army painted orange with his own chapter lore and uses the salamanders rules. "BUT THEY"RE NOT GREEN! THAT"S NOT FLUFF!!!" People like you wreck the hobby.
Nothing about not forcing a god choice is cherry picking or breaks the game in any way. So what, you can't play your own renegade legion? you can't play any legion other than those listed, not for rules reasons but because you're hung up on the name just like whatever unthinking fool at GW made this rule? To think that creating an arbitrary restriction that only applies to chaos armies with no purpose and that kills players ability to lore up their own chapter for their dudes is ridiculous. Or are you advocating they go change all the other armies to remove all ability to customize how you play? "oh can't use aberrents in pauper prince factions because in the story pauper princes don't have aberrents." and crap like that?
There's no valid reason i shouldn't be able to play with all the emperors children rules but paint my dudes gold and call them the Sphincter Surfers of Aguilon 12, using the EC rules to represent how they're so eager they always fight first. Nothing about that is doing anything that breaks rules or manipulates rules to get an advantage. And that's what you seem to be failing to seperate, you seem to be under the impression that not following these asinine fluff rules get's some advantage, it doesn't, it's mearly to help foster people to create their own attachment to their armies. But now GW is setting a precedent that they haven't done with literraly any other army, where they're writing rules to disallow creating your own lore. Again something they've not done with any other army in the game.
I get both sides of the problem here - I've always loved that Chaos has so many flavours you end up spoilt for choice and when putting together your own theme or even a full bio for your army, nothing gets you as much freedom as playing Chaos.
But the problem with the legion traits – especially the new ones (I'm looking at you The Purge) – is how they will interact with other god-specific abilities we can get. Let's take The Purge as an example. Before the god-lock, you could get:
Slaaneshi Oblits – light up an enemy target for the full to hit re-rolls and then use EC to blast the target (any target, likely) into dust. Oh, and give the Oblits delightful agonies to improve your chances to rinse and repeat next turn. Yeah, I was looking forward to this one.
The Purge Zerkers – light up a target for the full re-rolls to hit and, again, you're getting double-tap for a nice increase in damage output.
I bet people here can come up with more examples of buff-stacking (Flawless Host Berzerkers + prescience, anybody?), but I suppose you get the drift. All that said, nobody is stopping you from creating your own lore at all. And if you want certain units in your army to behave a certain way, you can still go for multiple detachments. Even more so if the lore is your primary reason to play – don't forget that narrative play exists where you're not limited by the rule of three.
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
I don't get what the deal is. Of the 13 legion/renegade options to choose from, only 6 of them are locked to a specific god. There are plenty of list building options for those who want to build a custom warband.
GW will have balanced the 4 new renegade traits around the fact that they were intended to be god-locked. This is not some balance patch that came out a year after release, this is in the first FAQ.
saint_red wrote: I don't get what the deal is. Of the 13 legion/renegade options to choose from, only 6 of them are locked to a specific god. There are plenty of list building options for those who want to build a custom warband.
GW will have balanced the 4 new renegade traits around the fact that they were intended to be god-locked. This is not some balance patch that came out a year after release, this is in the first FAQ.
I'd hazard the issue boils down to some people wanting to stack the most advantageous traits with god specific units/strats that are now prohibited due to a mark lockdown. They wanted flawless host zerkers or w/e but that is no longer an option.
Whilst I don't think the change is unreasonable at all, people losing options after having had them for a month is always going to leave a bitter taste, especially if they were players who didn't read into the fluff to see this coming.
To be fair, it was a rather obvious oversight, and anyone who went on and actually bought/built anything for that sole purpose without even waiting for the FAQ (who is, as a rule, about 2-4 weeks after book drops these days) was a dumbass.
I mean, I wanted to have Tzeentch Purge oblits to combo up with my TS, but I had the basic wisdom (or decency) to understand its probably not intended and wait for the FAQ.
With all the different legion/renegade option, its hardly as if core CSM are lacking options even if a few are god-locked.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.