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Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I don't know if TW has anything in the way of rank bonus, but I think you're looking at (or playing) overly simplistically if you think it's "all about making damage with as much models as you can".


No, I'm talking about the visual aspect of the game. When you deploy your units in formation on the board, the gameplay has directly an influence about how it looks, since you will use formations that give you an advantage in game. That's why I'm talking about the formations with deep ranks and a smaller front as much as possible.

I'm not denying the tactical value of using these formations, far from it - I used them as well in my days playing WFB, especially on the competitive scene -, but it really looks poorly on the table when you abuse even a little. It doesn't look like massive battles like in Total War Warhammer, especially when the units begin to charge massively into each other - you can clearly see the ranks quickly disappearing and becoming a huge anarchic melee blob...just like in AoS.

And yes, it was even worse in earlier versions when a rank of 4 soldiers was enough to gain the bonus in combat resolution...so instead of 5x4 formations, you had 4x4...or even deeper than that. It resulted in weird squares of units that didn't give a feeling of massive formations at all (which is why they changed it to ranks of 5 needed to gain the bonuses instead in later editions).


Like I said, I'm not letting nostalgy blinds my eyes and say WFB was all pink and nice. It wasn't. The visuals are actually something that really bothered me, and I will be saying that Total War Warhammer is the best representation of massive battles in the WFB universe, especially visually. It's a good thing that while inspired from WFB, it's not working like WFB at all. And I'm saying it again - it looks more like an AoS game, in terms of visuals.

Because let's be clear : you can use formations and ranks in AoS as well. It even has some tactical advantages. It's just that it's not dictated by some artificial bonuses you gain in combat resolution, like in WFB. To me, the visual of AoS hordes clashing into each others are way more accurate of a true mass battle than WFB would ever be. Fact is, regimental formations like in WFB are so rigid that you can easily abuse game mechanic to have silly situations like a lone cat right in the middle of the way of a huge 40 soldiers unit effectively blocking their advance and even getting hard to kill because just a few models will be able to attack, even though they outnumber it widely.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/08 10:16:12


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





I think in the end just agree to disagree on that, because I much preferred the WHFB aesthetic of densely packed units in formation smashing up against other densely packed units in formation over the loose individual models of AoS.

That's not nostalgia, that's why I played the game, it's not like we didn't have other loose formation games around at the same time.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think in the end just agree to disagree on that, because I much preferred the WHFB aesthetic of densely packed units in formation smashing up against other densely packed units in formation over the loose individual models of AoS.

That's not nostalgia, that's why I played the game, it's not like we didn't have other loose formation games around at the same time.


Both game mechanics are different and have different results visually, indeed. There is nothing wrong saying you'd prefer one over the other. I'm just explaining you my point of view after your previous answer.

If the Old World really is a mass battle game system, I sure hope they won't simply copy and paste WFB last rules, because to me it will just bring back all the problems from before - it will certainly be pleasing the old players who never wanted to change, but I'm not sure it will be that appealing to the others. I don't especially want to live another WFB's slow and unavoidable decline again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 10:23:31


 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

chaos0xomega wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Yes, all those things exist, but the majority of the fluff, novels, books, roleplaying games, etc. are pretty squarely centered on The Empire and a landsknecht with a halberd as someone else said.


No they are not. The Empire Halberdier is a single unit of the army and actually not that many of the novels contain even one.


Paging Dr. Literal. Dr. Literal, you're wanted in the thread.



If you had bothered to actually look at what I was showing / linking to or read the fething post and not act like a prize dick you might have understood the fething point I was making that your narrow beam focus on what you want Warhammer to be about may not be what many find within it or indeed ihas ever been mostly about. AS I SAID we all find different things in - you like the smaller, less obvious elements of the world - AND THATS FINE - but FFS you are not the ruler of the world and decide what is or is not Warhammer. There is plenty in the world of both Warhammer and the Mortal Realms for all tastes

As I was showing by actual visual evidence, discussion and not smart ass snarky remarks desgined to provoke.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/08 11:39:00


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Sarouan wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think in the end just agree to disagree on that, because I much preferred the WHFB aesthetic of densely packed units in formation smashing up against other densely packed units in formation over the loose individual models of AoS.

That's not nostalgia, that's why I played the game, it's not like we didn't have other loose formation games around at the same time.


Both game mechanics are different and have different results visually, indeed. There is nothing wrong saying you'd prefer one over the other. I'm just explaining you my point of view after your previous answer.

If the Old World really is a mass battle game system, I sure hope they won't simply copy and paste WFB last rules, because to me it will just bring back all the problems from before - it will certainly be pleasing the old players who never wanted to change, but I'm not sure it will be that appealing to the others. I don't especially want to live another WFB's slow and unavoidable decline again.


I can agree with that. More than anything I want it to do well, the same way I want any other game to do well, but especially since it's a game I used to enjoy.

   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think in the end just agree to disagree on that, because I much preferred the WHFB aesthetic of densely packed units in formation smashing up against other densely packed units in formation over the loose individual models of AoS.

That's not nostalgia, that's why I played the game, it's not like we didn't have other loose formation games around at the same time.


Both game mechanics are different and have different results visually, indeed. There is nothing wrong saying you'd prefer one over the other. I'm just explaining you my point of view after your previous answer.

If the Old World really is a mass battle game system, I sure hope they won't simply copy and paste WFB last rules, because to me it will just bring back all the problems from before - it will certainly be pleasing the old players who never wanted to change, but I'm not sure it will be that appealing to the others. I don't especially want to live another WFB's slow and unavoidable decline again.


I can agree with that. More than anything I want it to do well, the same way I want any other game to do well, but especially since it's a game I used to enjoy.



Won't they want to sell new stuff to old players as well as new so it will need at least cosmetic changes - same with the models themselves?

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Charging Dragon Prince





West Lafayette, IN

 Mr Morden wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think in the end just agree to disagree on that, because I much preferred the WHFB aesthetic of densely packed units in formation smashing up against other densely packed units in formation over the loose individual models of AoS.

That's not nostalgia, that's why I played the game, it's not like we didn't have other loose formation games around at the same time.


Both game mechanics are different and have different results visually, indeed. There is nothing wrong saying you'd prefer one over the other. I'm just explaining you my point of view after your previous answer.

If the Old World really is a mass battle game system, I sure hope they won't simply copy and paste WFB last rules, because to me it will just bring back all the problems from before - it will certainly be pleasing the old players who never wanted to change, but I'm not sure it will be that appealing to the others. I don't especially want to live another WFB's slow and unavoidable decline again.


I can agree with that. More than anything I want it to do well, the same way I want any other game to do well, but especially since it's a game I used to enjoy.



Won't they want to sell new stuff to old players as well as new so it will need at least cosmetic changes - same with the models themselves?


Because nobody ever owned a second army. Or a third. Or... well, you get the point.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in de
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




 Kalamadea wrote:
savemelmac wrote:

Second, do you mind sharing one of your last army lists from WHFB that you used? I don´t mean exactly the points, just what units and from which edition? That might be a better representation of what some of the people in this thread expect to find in the new game.


Played Chaos throughout 6th/7th and a small Wood Elf army in 6th, but mostly Chaos Mortals either Undivided or Mark of Khorne.

Army was often some variation of:
2-3 blocks of warriors, a block of foot Chosen, a big block of Marauders w/hand weapon &Shield would form the main line. Chaos Lord on horse leading Knights on one side, sometimes Chosen Knights, sometimes Chosen Knights of Khorne if I wanted to be mean, especially in 7th when Frenzy wasn't as crippling. Usually a couple chariots, 2-4 Spawn, unit of Furies to go after warmachines and some Beastmen to flank. Everything ellse was a sometimes-take: Sometimes take a demon prince, sometimes a Hellcannon. Loved my Archaon model but never did actually get to use him. I'd try out various Demon units or Beasts units, had a Shaggoth that I loved but could rarely afford, always wanted Dragon Ogres but hated the metal models, the plastics were amazing but came out too late

Wood elves were an eclectic mix of stuff I got secondhand: old plastic archers and plastic Blood Bowl "wardancers", a high elf lord on dragon painted in greens and browns, a treeman and some dryads and waywatchers. Nothing cohesive, it was only used for funsies games.


That sounds rather decent and about very similar to what I was playing, though I mostly tended to not use more than one block of warriors in favour of more knights. I faced to many cannons and mortars for that as my primary opponents played dwarves, imperium and skaven...

I know that Kings of War exists, but I know no one playing it. There actually is a Warhammer Armies Project group nearby, but that still is not the same as the "proper" GW game with all its support. And seeking the models on ebay is sometimes rather exhaustive.

It will be interesting how GW incorporates the existing players and models into the new game. Whether they try to invalidate old armies, or rather keep a big part of the models and units they already have for AoS that could easily be ported to WTOW or start something completely new.
   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut




 Just Tony wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think in the end just agree to disagree on that, because I much preferred the WHFB aesthetic of densely packed units in formation smashing up against other densely packed units in formation over the loose individual models of AoS.

That's not nostalgia, that's why I played the game, it's not like we didn't have other loose formation games around at the same time.


Both game mechanics are different and have different results visually, indeed. There is nothing wrong saying you'd prefer one over the other. I'm just explaining you my point of view after your previous answer.

If the Old World really is a mass battle game system, I sure hope they won't simply copy and paste WFB last rules, because to me it will just bring back all the problems from before - it will certainly be pleasing the old players who never wanted to change, but I'm not sure it will be that appealing to the others. I don't especially want to live another WFB's slow and unavoidable decline again.


I can agree with that. More than anything I want it to do well, the same way I want any other game to do well, but especially since it's a game I used to enjoy.



Won't they want to sell new stuff to old players as well as new so it will need at least cosmetic changes - same with the models themselves?


Because nobody ever owned a second army. Or a third. Or... well, you get the point.


Don't forget all the armies in the closet they have bought that they will paint one day.....

Not like wargamers show restraints when it comes to purchases. As long as the game is fun and the factions are interesting people just buy and buy. That fantasy died because people were content with what they already had don't match up with many people I have met in this hobby. Most are planning their third or fourth army before they have completely assembled their first.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Just Tony wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I think in the end just agree to disagree on that, because I much preferred the WHFB aesthetic of densely packed units in formation smashing up against other densely packed units in formation over the loose individual models of AoS.

That's not nostalgia, that's why I played the game, it's not like we didn't have other loose formation games around at the same time.


Both game mechanics are different and have different results visually, indeed. There is nothing wrong saying you'd prefer one over the other. I'm just explaining you my point of view after your previous answer.

If the Old World really is a mass battle game system, I sure hope they won't simply copy and paste WFB last rules, because to me it will just bring back all the problems from before - it will certainly be pleasing the old players who never wanted to change, but I'm not sure it will be that appealing to the others. I don't especially want to live another WFB's slow and unavoidable decline again.


I can agree with that. More than anything I want it to do well, the same way I want any other game to do well, but especially since it's a game I used to enjoy.



Won't they want to sell new stuff to old players as well as new so it will need at least cosmetic changes - same with the models themselves?


Because nobody ever owned a second army. Or a third. Or... well, you get the point.
True - I have a few thousand unpainted models.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot





Shaggoth was one of the best minis they ever made imo.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





JWBS wrote:
Shaggoth was one of the best minis they ever made imo.



Just a shame that when beasts got their update, the same sculptor wasn’t handed the task of making Kholek and the brass bull.
Would have loved to have had models for them along the same aesthetic line.

Still hoping we see a Kholek model in one system or another.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Sarouan wrote:
[

Like I said, I'm not letting nostalgy blinds my eyes and say WFB was all pink and nice. It wasn't. The visuals are actually something that really bothered me, and I will be saying that Total War Warhammer is the best representation of massive battles in the WFB universe, especially visually. It's a good thing that while inspired from WFB, it's not working like WFB at all. And I'm saying it again - it looks more like an AoS game, in terms of visuals.


Out of curiosity. Why would old world mass battles be so different than what medieval wars were? Our world melee between 2 enemy forces wasn't chaotic mess but organized lines facing each other. And there was good reasons for that...

Are you interested in seeing how battle would REALLY look like or how fantasy chaos that has nothing to do with actual combat looks like?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 12:37:52


2021 painted/bought: 59/44 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

tneva82 wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
[

Like I said, I'm not letting nostalgy blinds my eyes and say WFB was all pink and nice. It wasn't. The visuals are actually something that really bothered me, and I will be saying that Total War Warhammer is the best representation of massive battles in the WFB universe, especially visually. It's a good thing that while inspired from WFB, it's not working like WFB at all. And I'm saying it again - it looks more like an AoS game, in terms of visuals.


Out of curiosity. Why would old world mass battles be so different than what medieval wars were? Our world melee between 2 enemy forces wasn't chaotic mess but organized lines facing each other. And there was good reasons for that...


It often started like that but often disolved into chaos - control over forces was always difficult and even now is not perfect by any stretch. A good general could command effectively but a poor would quickly loose any control he had and unexpected events could throw even the best battle plans and generals into chaos.

Throw in strange war machines, magic as well as terrifying and often flying monsters and its likely a more fluid, confusing and dangerous affair!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/08 12:43:35


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Villanous Scum






Going to lock this thread for a while as it seems to have gone off the tracks for News and Rumours and is getting overly heated.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
 
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