Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2021/02/02 20:46:16
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
kodos wrote:this more or less confirms that the stuff we have seen was not made for ToW but for Total War and GW just used it to tease
same as the map GW showed was the Total War map (a reason why there is a more detailed/different Norsca) with new Icons on it
Looking closely at the Norsca coastline, its peninsulas, islands and bays, the revealed map and the map used in Total War are not actually that similar, and certainly different. Albion even more.
Lord Damocles wrote:Imagine being that chump who turned up with a horse, when everybody else is riding armoured polar bears and daemon bulls made of metal...
The Lumineth have guys rocking up on horses while others ride not-kangaroos, cow-lion hybrids or are themselves foxy wind spirits, so, yeah, sure.
2021/02/02 20:52:45
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
kodos wrote:this more or less confirms that the stuff we have seen was not made for ToW but for Total War and GW just used it to tease
same as the map GW showed was the Total War map (a reason why there is a more detailed/different Norsca) with new Icons on it
Looking closely at the Norsca coastline, its peninsulas, islands and bays, the revealed map and the map used in Total War are not actually that similar, and certainly different. Albion even more.
Lord Damocles wrote:Imagine being that chump who turned up with a horse, when everybody else is riding armoured polar bears and daemon bulls made of metal...
The Lumineth have guys rocking up on horses while others ride not-kangaroos, cow-lion hybrids or are themselves foxy wind spirits, so, yeah, sure.
But I feel like the Lumineth on horses are more haughty than the kung-aroos. Sure, I imagine the treestriders have special bonds with their mounts (since they have that old mustache look to them), but the horse guys can be like "look at us, we're what Teclis intended. We ride on the same mounts as our elven ancestors. Jealous?"
Meanwhile, horses are common in the Old World
2021/02/03 00:16:21
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I've read a lot of really interesting points here, and I'm honestly surprised that there seem to be so many WHFB fans that successfully and happily migrated over to AoS. That's very cool!
My cousin posed a very interesting question to me yesterday. He asked me what I would do if ToW came out with shiny new models but kept the current GW pricing guidelines.
Now, my opinion here so please don't take it as me preaching gospel, but I personally believe that the vocally negative internet had a LOT to do with the decline in sales of WHFB. People constantly bemoaned the price of a fantasy army, usually without even bothering to purchase and build a fantasy army. I once read a 40K tournament player's post commenting on how stupid the prices for WHFB were, apparently without that person realizing the irony of their 40K army costing roughly $200 more than the 'equivalent' fantasy army.
With that being said, I don't see how ToW can be successful in the modern market if they choose to follow the current GW pricing strategy for new 40K or AoS models. If people were complaining (however erroneously IMO) about price in 2012, how much worse will that be if they update the prices to modern equivalents? Not only does a true mass battle game require more models, but if you priced basic troops models at $50 - $60/ 10, elite models at $60/ 5, and monsters for anywhere between $110 to $150, the game is 100% dead on arrival. No one but the most wealthy of WHFB fans would be able to afford to build an army. Even with FW likely to be handling ToW and trying to pass it off as a niche title in the market, I don't think people are going to be thrilled to pay 30K costs for their armies either.
Add that to the fact that there is honestly more exciting things happening in the rank 'n file world now than there was in the past with games like Kings of War, the 9th Age, and Conquest (my personal favorite) all stepping in to fill the giant rank 'n file hole at a much lower price point than WHFB was even before it's decline, and I'm not so sure how excited I am for a return to the Old World.
Don't get me wrong, I love WHFB, and I love the Old World, but I'm tempering my expectations with the idea that GW simply won't know how to price the game. Hopefully I'm wrong, though. Consider my fingers crossed!
Here's the thing about price complaints - people complain about the prices, but then, if the models and the game are good enough, they buy the models anyway. Hence the success of AoS which, while being stupidly expensive, seems to be doing alright.
Prices may have had some of the blame for the death of WHFB, because there were cheaper alternatives available from other companies for many of the factions and so some people bought those instead, but I couldn't say whether there was enough of that to have a serious impact on GW's bottom line.
But going by the complaints that I saw online over the last few editions, the rules were by far a bigger contributor to the game's decline than the price of the models. If GW can put out AoS-quality models suitable for rank-and-file play, and can work up a ruleset that people want to play again, the price of the models will be no more a barrier than it is for AoS.
2021/02/03 00:29:15
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Argive wrote: The real question for me is if WTW3 will have cathay.. I always wanted to have not-samurais in table top as an option
Araby has the most chance since they did have a warmaster army.
Cathay, Araby, Nippon, etc.... could happen, but I'd see them as being akin to the Vampire Pirates in that they'd be a "once we've done the rest" kind of release at the very end if sales are really good. The CA team are certainly fans of Warhammer and clearly want to do the game and have put a lot into it. So there's every chance that if they can find the excess money to invest and if their is projected good profits and time to develop they might well step outside and do a few exotics that never got armies or only got limited releases and such.
On the subject of price it is a barrier, but at the same time in a wargame I think the key isn't so much the total price of the hobby, but rather the price to reach engagement. Old Worlds rules didn't work great at 500 point matches and below 1K were still somewhat limited. With a gaming population that was increasingly losing beginners and being left with experienced players you had a steady shift toward more and more big games at the 2K point level. Which meant newbies had a BIG wall to overcome. The low point games weren't as fun and they had a long long way to reach a full army. Many burned out along the way.
GW seems to really recognise that and that's why we have underworld, warcry, killteam, meeting engagements etc... Many of which not just as included in the core book, but with their own separate game and marketing. So newbies are aware of those small point value games as are experienced players. It creates hype and because the rules are built around them they also work. Warcy works with a single box of models as does Underworlds. Sure best armies might use more, and there in lies the temptation. By creating staged expansion points players reach 500 and 1K points of models before they know it. Suddenly that jump to 2K isn't all that bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 00:34:03
Yup, they absolutely need to ensure that the game works at small points levels, but I think that's a lesson that they've well and truly learnt with their other games by now.
The other caveat I think would be that units need to be functional at smaller sizes, as well. Once upon a time, units of 10-12 models were perfectly viable, but over time units got bigger and bigger. That looks impressive on the table, but really limits peoples' choices when they are building armies. Larger units should have a payoff, but shouldn't be essential.
2021/02/03 00:53:20
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
The rules and the pricing issues WHFB had in its final edition were related. Due to how certain rules worked, it was ideal for many armies to be running multiple blocks of infantry with 40+ models often in a 5-wide, many-deep formation that looked silly but played effectively while also being frustrating to experience from the other side. And actually building out those units got very expensive very quickly even with cheap kits. Not to mention the practicality expense of physically building, transporting, and playing with those models.
This also took place in the height of the Kirby era; GW was a model company that proudly did no market research and believed buyers were generally collectors who played the games on the side if at all. There was little to no support for armies unless they were getting a new book, which no one knew was coming until two weeks before, and were expected to last for an indeterminate amount of time regardless of how good or bad they were. There was a general hopelessness that manifested in the community, that things simply were not going to get better and would quite likely continue to get worse.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 03:37:33
Argive wrote: The real question for me is if WTW3 will have cathay.. I always wanted to have not-samurais in table top as an option
Araby has the most chance since they did have a warmaster army.
Cathay, Araby, Nippon, etc.... could happen, but I'd see them as being akin to the Vampire Pirates in that they'd be a "once we've done the rest" kind of release at the very end if sales are really good. The CA team are certainly fans of Warhammer and clearly want to do the game and have put a lot into it. So there's every chance that if they can find the excess money to invest and if their is projected good profits and time to develop they might well step outside and do a few exotics that never got armies or only got limited releases and such.
On the subject of price it is a barrier, but at the same time in a wargame I think the key isn't so much the total price of the hobby, but rather the price to reach engagement. Old Worlds rules didn't work great at 500 point matches and below 1K were still somewhat limited. With a gaming population that was increasingly losing beginners and being left with experienced players you had a steady shift toward more and more big games at the 2K point level. Which meant newbies had a BIG wall to overcome. The low point games weren't as fun and they had a long long way to reach a full army. Many burned out along the way.
GW seems to really recognise that and that's why we have underworld, warcry, killteam, meeting engagements etc... Many of which not just as included in the core book, but with their own separate game and marketing. So newbies are aware of those small point value games as are experienced players. It creates hype and because the rules are built around them they also work. Warcy works with a single box of models as does Underworlds. Sure best armies might use more, and there in lies the temptation. By creating staged expansion points players reach 500 and 1K points of models before they know it. Suddenly that jump to 2K isn't all that bad.
I fully expect them have a similar set up to 40k in terms of pointage and game size.
Perhaps a KT/ RPG veriant for small individual infantry model - I remember in 6E WHFB there was a skirmish version. Never played it but looked fun.
Then a small 500-1500pts game and then full scale for 2k +
However as this is a FW project. What is 30k like currently in terms of game size design? Chances are it will follow that route.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Carlovonsexron wrote: I wonder if the new Total war game and the old world game will release alongside each other.
Ot feels like a missed opportunity to anything else.
What do you mean ?
TWWH2 works with conjunction with the first game. As in whatever races you have in the first game you can play them in WH2 too. Just not in the game 2 specific vortex campaign.
I fully expect WH3 to work in much similiar way.
I think its incredibly intelligent game design as it gives so much life to the game and you don't mind paying DLC coz new stuff keeps getting added to the game.
The WH2 engine and the game itself runs perfectly when compared to Troy or 3K IMO. In terms of how it takes into account physics, mass etc. (there are a lot of stupid things dont get me wrong... but its darn good game)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 04:08:34
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Overread wrote: Araby has the most chance since they did have a warmaster army.
I wish, I wish, I wish.
Unlike Cathay, Nippon or Ind, which are way over to the east, Araby is kinda right smack bang in the middle of everything once you have a map that covers Naggarond through to the Chaos Dwarf areas. To not include them seems like a really bad thing, as their absence is conspicuous (moreso when you consider all the locations in Araby that you can move through/conquer without there being an Araby nation to defend them!).
It'd be like having a map that included various regions of Lothern, but specifically excluded the Wood Elves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 05:36:04
November 2019 wrote:You get the idea – this is a long way off. Years. More than two. Like three or more. Definitely not soon.
TW3, on the other hand is ramping up for release this year (notably there are no other TW games on the radar, just DLC for Troy and Three Kingdoms, and CA has at least three separate TW teams). The current week of teasers is either for the very last DLC of TW2, the preorder bonus for TW3 or TW3 itself. Its been in development quite a bit longer and at the very worst is going to hit the beginning of next year (barring extraordinary delays)
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 05:52:01
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/02/03 12:02:19
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
I have to admit I'm saddened by that, but not so much for me (though I am keen to see what minis come out, and I'm hopeful that the earlier setting means less renaissance pools and puffs on the soldiers) but for the hobby as a whole- there's gonna be people who want in on the table top game if they had the option, for sure.
Nostromodamus wrote:I just want TW3 to have demons. fething sucks to play Chaos and not have Chaos entities.
That's all but guaranteed. Might be more info today I think.
Carlovonsexron wrote:I wonder if the new Total war game and the old world game will release alongside each other.
Ot feels like a missed opportunity to anything else.
Highly unlikely - Old World is way off; the last Total War due soon. Everything about TW has been a missed opportunity; the first instalment came out when Warhammer Fantasy was thrown out, the last will be released before GW brings it back. Theoretically some future DLCs could coincide, but not counting on it too much. Wonder if GW has some info on popularity of factions via CA, though that may be difficult to accurately interpret (with e.g. Bretonnia being a free addition, Norsca both sold and given for free as a pre-order bonus, etc, while playtime says more about faction rules and playstyles than aesthetics and relevant playstyles on the tabletop).
2021/02/03 15:15:02
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
There are an awful lot of "Normal dudes in furs" plus Winged Lancers in there, which makes me happy for the whole "Kislev will still have normal stuff" possibility.
2021/02/03 15:27:11
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
There are an awful lot of "Normal dudes in furs" plus Winged Lancers in there, which makes me happy for the whole "Kislev will still have normal stuff" possibility.
Yep. They're still the same style of the Kislev the setting already had, just with a few extra new unit additions. Settles the whole "They're gonna change the historical WHFB factions to make them more unique!" thing I think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 15:31:18
2021/02/03 15:30:01
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Re: Concept art, from the WarCom article about TWW3:
Regular readers of Warhammer Community will know that the Games Workshop creative studio is hard at work on Warhammer The Old World, a project that will see the return of the world-that-was to the tabletop, and their designs have fed directly into the development of Total War: Warhammer III. Check out this exclusive piece of concept art for the Kislevite Gryphon Legion for a taste of what they’ve been working on.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2021/02/03 15:35:40
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
If its the former, isn't AOS like super popular and successful for GW? Even if you're an old world fan, like myself, if nothing else, a lot of the new armies are really cool.
2021/02/03 15:54:55
Subject: Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
Cathay reveal is super cool, and it's funny that these factions that were footnotes in WHFB are finally getting fleshed out.
I'm really hoping that this means Ogres will be in it too, since the Ogre Strongholds are along the Silk Road to Cathay and they feature prominently as mercenaries escorting the caravans.
catbarf wrote: Cathay reveal is super cool, and it's funny that these factions that were footnotes in WHFB are finally getting fleshed out.
Wondering if GW will use the Old World to develop some of the more 'alternate history' human armies like Kislev, Cathay etc. while they can use Chaos kits in both systems (or even all three, like the Daemons). I mean, is there anything from the new Slaanesh release that wouldn't fit into the old world? Compared to the minis obviously developed for the AoS setting, like the new Luminälfs or Warcry chaos bands.
~~~ I Love The Power Glove. It's So Bad. ~~~
2021/02/03 16:06:44
Subject: Re:Warhammer The Old World : Bretonnia page 63
I am still not convinced that choosing armies that hardly existed as posterboys for game based on nostalgy values is a good idea but I hope it goes well.
That place is the harsh dark future far left with only war left.
Eldar- 4436 pts
