Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

HQ:

Shas 'el 50 base

Drone controller with 2 gun drones: (20)
Twin-linked plasma rifle (20): 90

90 points

ELITES:

2 identical teams of 3 suits, each with twin linked plasma rifles and drone controller with 2 drones - 450 (225 points per team)

HEAVY SUPPORT:
2 x broadside battlesuits: 150
2 x Broadside Battlesuits: 150
2 x broadside battlesuits: 150

TROOPS:

9 Fire Warriors with leader - 100 (Pulse carbines)
9 fire warriors with leader - 100 (Pulse rifles)
9 fire warriors with leader - 100 (pulse rifles)
9 fire warriors with leader - 100 (Pulse rifles)
9 fire warriors with leader - 100 (all with pulse rifles)

= 1490

The goal of the list is to be all-round for most situations. 6 Broadsides to deal with vehicles, 45 infantry to deal with light infantry, crisis suits and commander to deal with 'elite' units like those with feel no pain, 2+ armor, space marines, etc.

Let me know what you guys think

Ok, first off, you are seriously lacking range and firepower for your suits, most of the time you are going to be over 12" away so that means you would only be firing one plasma shot per suit. If you wish to stick with the drones, then go Deathrain ( TL misle pod) as this will boost your range, number of shots, and give you a little added light vehicle killing boost.

Second, the Broadsides must and I mean MUST have ASS, this is mandatory, as many missions require you to move onto the board and with ASS you can move and shoot those TL S 10 awesomeness. You are probably going to want to lose some firewarriors to get them some devilfish as static gun lines with all the deepstriking stuff these days just makes it very hard to use. I would also probably make one suit squad Fire knife, meaning plasma rifle, missle pod, multi-tracker, with the team leader having 2 shield or gun drones, as this unit is battle proven, reliable and very diverse in its uses.

Anyways, things to think about...

1) ASS on Broadsides. XV88's come out of Tau factories with these things.
2) If your suits are getting in close, throw in some fusion blasters and flamers into the mix.

I've never played gunline Tau before, but on paper, it can look very dangerous. Just watch out for the speedy units that can multiple-assault your gunline on turn 2.

If you want to be competitive, don't play Tau. Ba-dum ch!

But in all seriousness, my Khorne army would probably rip this list up once they got into CC. You might consider a few kroot or another light, expendable unit to screen your gunline, because once you have enemy troops in there, it's all over.

This... Isn't going to work.

Ok, how shall I begin?

HQ:

He's actually not that bad. he's cheap, and you found a way to shave points. except the TL plasma is 30, not 20, and he won't be able to do anything really useful - TL plasma is a subpar item for tau in 5th - expensive, not enough shots, and the enemy will be in cover much of the time anyways.

Elites:

I don't like to criticize suit builds since people tend to feel strongly about this topic, but if you must use plasma, use fireknife (plasma/missiles/trackers). It's more versatile, it's actually cheaper, it has more shots, you can actually have a shot at killing av12 with it... really, it's just better all around.

Troops:

Oh man. Time for a lesson here.

ok, a guardsman is 4 points, and has ld 8 with his 10 pt sarge.

a firewarrior is more than twice that, and is ld7 base.

both are t3, and in cover, the guardsman has the same save you do. your only advantage is your superior pulse rifle.

my point is this: there are two option for a fw squad. the first is hiding in a devilfish, which is the most competitive option by far. the other is massed and on foot, with shas'ui's and markerlights to get the greatest gain out of being dismounted, which risks getting shot, getting assaulted, - and let's hope you don't face down a wall of rhinos from a mech army or something, where your only advantage, your pulse rifle, is useless, assuming the enemy doesn't flaunt his side facings at you for no good reason.

my point is that gunline is not competitive for tau. You need devilfish, bad. If you MUST run a dismounted squad, as in a hybrid list, make damn sure they have a shas'ui for leadership, and bonding to keep them on the table.

That said, if you have to run gunline, you will want kroot. they are cheap, they can hide in cover, they can outflank and assault or claim things... If you can't afford or don't want devilfish, you'll need them, bad.

Fast Attack:

n/a.

Heavy Support:

A broadside spamlist is basically what makes this list distinctive... as noted above, get A.S.S. Not much to say here. These guys will be hard to kill, at least.

Overall:

The basic issue here is simply that your suit configs are bad and your troops will all die very quickly -and they have no way to claim the other guy's objectives! one 9 man squad with carbines is a joke.

You need to fix the troops (get the right upgrades, get kroot) and optimize those suits (because they sure aren't right now) if you want this list to work. You will still have issues with fast assaulting armies, pie plate heavy armies, and a decently played mech army could potentially curb stomp you since you don't have enough s7 (missile pod) shots around- smoke launchers make a big difference vs. those railgun shots.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:This... Isn't going to work.

Ok, how shall I begin?

HQ:

He's actually not that bad. he's cheap, and you found a way to shave points. except the TL plasma is 30, not 20, and he won't be able to do anything really useful - TL plasma is a subpar item for tau in 5th - expensive, not enough shots, and the enemy will be in cover much of the time anyways.

Elites:

I don't like to criticize suit builds since people tend to feel strongly about this topic, but if you must use plasma, use fireknife (plasma/missiles/trackers). It's more versatile, it's actually cheaper, it has more shots, you can actually have a shot at killing av12 with it... really, it's just better all around.

Troops:

Oh man. Time for a lesson here.

ok, a guardsman is 4 points, and has ld 8 with his 10 pt sarge.

a firewarrior is more than twice that, and is ld7 base.

both are t3, and in cover, the guardsman has the same save you do. your only advantage is your superior pulse rifle.

my point is this: there are two option for a fw squad. the first is hiding in a devilfish, which is the most competitive option by far. the other is massed and on foot, with shas'ui's and markerlights to get the greatest gain out of being dismounted, which risks getting shot, getting assaulted, - and let's hope you don't face down a wall of rhinos from a mech army or something, where your only advantage, your pulse rifle, is useless, assuming the enemy doesn't flaunt his side facings at you for no good reason.

my point is that gunline is not competitive for tau. You need devilfish, bad. If you MUST run a dismounted squad, as in a hybrid list, make damn sure they have a shas'ui for leadership, and bonding to keep them on the table.

That said, if you have to run gunline, you will want kroot. they are cheap, they can hide in cover, they can outflank and assault or claim things... If you can't afford or don't want devilfish, you'll need them, bad.

Fast Attack:

n/a.

Heavy Support:

A broadside spamlist is basically what makes this list distinctive... as noted above, get A.S.S. Not much to say here. These guys will be hard to kill, at least.

Overall:

The basic issue here is simply that your suit configs are bad and your troops will all die very quickly -and they have no way to claim the other guy's objectives! one 9 man squad with carbines is a joke.

You need to fix the troops (get the right upgrades, get kroot) and optimize those suits (because they sure aren't right now) if you want this list to work. You will still have issues with fast assaulting armies, pie plate heavy armies, and a decently played mech army could potentially curb stomp you since you don't have enough s7 (missile pod) shots around- smoke launchers make a big difference vs. those railgun shots.

Ditto.

Not to be cruel, but your army would very likely be shredded, listen to Milquetoast Thug.

Thanks for the advice guys I do have some devilfishes that I've never used, and now that someone's explained it to me I'm going the fireknife variant is definitely better, though I do like to have a team leader with a hard wired drone controller and 2 drones to give the squad extra wounds.

Is this any better?

HQ:

Commander

Shas 'el 50 base

Hard-wired Drone controller with 2 gun drones: (20)
Plasma rifle (20)
Target Lock (5)
Missile Pod (12)

107 points

ELITES:

2 identical teams of 3 fireknife suits. Team leader with drone controller and 2 drones - 422

HEAVY SUPPORT:
2 x broadside battlesuits: 150
2 x Broadside Battlesuits: 150
2 x broadside battlesuits: 150

450

= 979 points, leaving the rest for other things.

I'm not sure how to organize my troops: I'm thinking that maybe I should run something like this but let me know what you think:

12 fire warriors and shas'ui in a devilfish 210
12 fire warriors and shas'ui in a devilfish 210
14 Kroot - 98

That should be 1497 points

I also have 22 more kroot, 2 krootox, 2 shapers, 33 fire warriors, 4 devilfish, a piranah, and 11 stealth suits

IMO.. Wait, this entire post is IMO. Anyway, IMO,

If you have 20 Kroot, use 20 Kroot, all in one squad. Add hounds if you can (I scratch built mine out of kroot). These units, when in natural cover, have a tendancy to scare the hell out of people, and don't cost you a whole lot of points.

I personaly like stealths, but that preferance more then anything else.

As for suit builds, TL plasma isn't particularly bad for the plain old 25pt suits. You toss on a flamer for the 3'd spot and you get a 'in your face' suit that can deal with almost anyone's infantry. Just don't cry if the eat it every game. I agree with the above though, that a commander should always have 2 weapons and a MT. I like plasma/fusion.

Being a player who played 2k Tau games without a transport and won, it's not impossable (not the best, but not impossable). However, you got to get them in cover & you have to protect them. Keeping them alive becomes a core stratagy, shooting assault troops, transports or 'ignore cover' units first. To be compeditive, however, learn how to use 'fish right. Which starts with giving them disruption pods, always.

Unless your facing a treadhead IG, you won't need 6 BS in 1500pts. Drop 2 and get some more troops.

And although people will likely yell at me for this, you could also stand to reduce the number of suits your bringing, Drop 1 suit from each, bond them (so they can regroup after the drones die), and use the left over points to get more troops.

Then play a few times with different configurations. It took me 4 games to figure out how to get used to using a 'fish.

Thanks, I'll be sure to try that

Don't let these guys tell you that gunline Tau is useless, if someone plans to fight gunline tau then yes it will get shredded however as everyone is gearing up for dealing with mech armies (IG, Eldar, Rhino spam) staring down a bristling gunline is actually more than many people are prepared to deal with.

however in order to make a gunline work at all you need markerlights being able to boost the bs of a critical shot or remove coversaves from smoke obscured rhinos is just too good to ignore.

My suggestion would be to possibly drop the kroot for pathfinders and instead of buying an additional devilfish just use the pathfinder fish to cart a squad of FCW's around.

Ah you're right that is a good idea, thanks

Gunline Tau IS Useless, Considering ANYBODY that reaches your gun line is going to SHRED YOU TO PIECES. You mess people up for the first couple turns, but turn 3 when those Space Marines get out of their rhino, fire their bolt pistols, and assault you, it's game over man, game over.

And that's not even considering all the pain you're going to recieve, what with everything out in the open and exposed.

Well time to enter my 2 cents.

Tau hand rhino's their arse. Even the normal gun can immobilize them. Yes it is harder now but it still works.

As for weapons on Suits. Having one unit set up with MP/BC/MTx2 w/ TLMP TL and the other squad with PR/BC/MTx3 is the best option. It's cheaper this way and each one has it's role. MP's for vehicles and PR for Termies.

Your Broadside MUST HAVE (ass). You can retreat and still fire. That should be enough reasons.

It also depends on size of the game. De-mechanized Tau work better at smaller point values. 400-1000 they (least in my experiance) actualy work better then mechanized.

One must remember you can't play a Tau Infantry list the same way you'd play guard. You have to pay a lot more attention to how you deploy, and not be afraid to move you guys if nessisary.

I've use Tau Infantry and come up the victor against 'nids, guard, drop-marines and others. If you are going to go with Infantry, you need to pack some missilepods to take out transports though. My double missile suit has more then made up her points in several games.

I agree about the AS System. I used to run with Shields, but with LOS and the better cover these days, the need to shuffle to one side or the other to get a shot comes up to often to ignore this equipment.

I still think Kroot are well worth their points for one squad of 20. I've (almost) never had them not live up to their small amount of points by eating enemies and/or claming objectives.

Also, this kind of build is one of the circumstances where I'd seriously suggest running a stealth team that isn't just there to outflank - a big point of the unit is to draw fire for tau gunlines so the troops can keep fighting longer. you could also tack markerlights on the unit as well.

i agree with most all above, except with the kroot, make it a 12 man squad and 6 hounds. this is the most point effective solution.
also, if you are planning on deepstriking your suits, just in case you are, pathfinders DF let you reroll, it's most useful with stealth suites, but will work there too.

I agree with the Stealths and Pathfinder notes. However, when it comes to the Kroot, I disagree.

While the hounds are indeed 1pt cheaper then Kroot, and do have a better inut, the gun is worth the extra 6pts.

I find that one of the most valuble uses of the Kroot are as a firesquad. With a full 20 Kroot, they are able to put out ~10str4 hits at 24" around the terrain they occupy. It makes people more hesitent not to shoot or assault them, taking fire away from your Firewarriors.

I think there is a big problem with terminology here.

Tau gunline is the most powerful iteration of tau. But I only mean gunline in the sense that they aren't mechanized. The best units in the tau dex are crisis suits, broadsides, and pathfinders. These units either can't ride in transports or don't want to. The best troops in the book are kroot which are similarly on foot.

I'd never advocate taking more than 6 fire warriors, but firewarriors aren't really what makes a gunline. Tons of broadsides and pathfinders, screened by kroot with crisis suits JSJing seems pretty much like a gunline to me. And it s a pretty darn good 5th edition list.

To the OP...

You've already heard about the missile pod plasma rifle multitracker combo. That's what I use on all my suits. I used to use twin linked missile pods but then i tried pathfinders and got hooked on them, now I don't want twin-linked because a couple of my crisis teams will be BS5 every turn.

The crisis teams don't need drones in my experience.

I can't tell which support system you picked on the broadsides, but many people really like ASS. It is pretty useful for dawn of war missions (but keep in mind the first turn of dawn of war is played in night fight conditions) and also for adjusting your position during the game.

Your troops need a complete rework. What i would advocate would be to just run a single fire warrior unit. Use points shaved from this section to buy a pathfinder unit, and have the fire warriors 'requisition' the mandatory devilfish. The rest of your points should be spent on kroot units. You can outflank with them, or just use them to screen your expensive shooty units. Take at least 5 kroot hounds per kroot unit. They are vitally important for winning combats. Their initiative 5 allows them to strike before or at least simultaneously with almost every unit in the game, then when you take wounds back, you apply those wounds to the hounds, this allows your kroot to always fight with their full compliment of attacks, even with their low initiative of 3. It is really very important that they be able to attack or you will lose combat badly.

Those changes should really increase the power level of your list.

...

I strongly disagree. Except, perhaps, in a small pts value game, There're rairly enough good cover for several large units of Kroot, and small units of Kroot are not able to stand to the units avalible to other armies.

Twin linked suits allows them to engage units that are out of sight of the pathfinder, while the pathfinders multiple hits are used on something more useful, like increasing 2 12-large Firewarrior squads up to BS 5.

While I wouldn't say, Shep, your list wouldn't work, I don't think it's the best way to use the Tau Codex, and is not really a change to the OP's list, as a compleatly different army.

Damn double posting

Shep wrote: The best troops in the book are kroot which are similarly on foot.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
A THOUSAND TIMES NO.

Canonness Rory wrote:

Shep wrote: The best troops in the book are kroot which are similarly on foot.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
A THOUSAND TIMES NO.

and breathe.....

Please do not tell me you think that fire warriors of any variety are a more competitive choice than a unit of outflanking kroot with kroot hounds.

Shep wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:

Shep wrote: The best troops in the book are kroot which are similarly on foot.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
A THOUSAND TIMES NO.

and breathe.....

Please do not tell me you think that fire warriors of any variety are a more competitive choice than a unit of outflanking kroot with kroot hounds.

Fire Warriors, OF ANY VARIETY, are a more competitive choice than a unit of outflanking kroot with kroot hounds. ESPECIALLY with kroot hounds.
Kroot have their uses, yes, close combat is not among them.

I'm personaly a fan of outflanking Kroot w/ hounds. (again, at least 1/2 the time their guns are their best asset) But there are plenty of armies that trick won't work against if you don't provide a credable anti-infantry threat from the front. Drop-poding marines or a IG who knows how to deploy come to mind.

Canonness Rory wrote:Fire Warriors, OF ANY VARIETY, are a more competitive choice than a unit of outflanking kroot with kroot hounds. ESPECIALLY with kroot hounds.
Kroot have their uses, yes, close combat is not among them.

I don't usually do so much cross posting, and if someone has the wrong idea and is insanely passionate about it I usually let it go, but you're really passing off some bad advice to a newish tau player so, i'll bite and go one more time.


In my play experience (I am a tournament player, I play 2-5 games per week, I own a tau army, the other 5 members of my gaming group are generally viewed as 'hardcore' and competitive list minded) fire warriors are absolutely awful. They are overcosted, they have no ability to kill tanks (and a great deal of serious players are running fully mechanized lists) Their leadership is too low, and they do not do well when advancing towards an objective, either inside a devilfish or on foot.

Kroot have the same leadership, the same save in cover, point for point equivalent shooting versus infantry, harder to make take morale tests at 25%. A unit of 10 kroot with 5 kroot hounds can consistently beat space marine combat squads, eldar jetbikes, ork lootas, imperial guard infantry squads (even blobbed stubborn squads), and any vehicle in the backline with rear armor 10 will take between 3-8 glancing hits. Enough to silence, and possibly stack permanent damage.

The synergy with a shooty tau army is fantastic. Spread objectives at far corners on both sides of the table, and your opponent has no idea where you will come from. they will have to rush your superior shooting, and then the kroot will arrive from reserve behind them, on the objective, killing soft backline units.

As I explained before, kroot hounds are what make a kroot unit able to beat so many different units in assault. Just scroll up if you need to see it again.

I'm a big advocate of people playing with units that work for them, and that many different types of units can perform the same role. But this is a case where I just have to halt anyone from trying to make an army built around fire warriors.

My first game at the Vegas GT last year with my ork army was against a tau player who had built a list to beat orks. It contained 50 fire warriors. He explained to me that he took them so that he could beat the new ork army. He was a great sport, but i tabled him and got a 20 point massacre result. My army was 3x30 boys units and 2x15 loota units with killa kan support. He pulled the 'best case scenario' matchup on game one of a tourney, and was tabled. How well do you think those fire warriors held up against a mechanized army?

To make it perfectly clear. No troop choice in the Tau codex is particularly good. Many different codexes have more flexible and more powerful troops. But among the bad choices, taking kroot with hounds gives you the most maneuverability and the highest chance of actually doing something. I am absolutely 100% on this.

how come no one has suggested hammerheads? I'm very passionate about my hammer heads and you might want to consider replacing two broadsides for a tooled out one IMO. It will be necessary for dealing with horde army's as it has a strength 6 large blast.

I'm going to have to agree with Shep 100% here.

Outflanking kroot isn't really that great though (kroot in general ESPECIALLY WITH Kroot Hounds are good) they are pretty random, but are great otherwise.

And I ignored this list the find round go because it was that bad =(.

Don't focus on heavies so hard! Get your troops and HQ and build from there. You don't need 6 XV88's lol...

@Shep - You are so WRONG about not taking Fire Warriors. Personally, as a chaos player, I think the fire warriors are an excellent choice, preferably on foot moving forward in an attempt to capture a far-side objective. Mind you, I am saying they are an excellent choice as an opponent playing Chaos, since they would give me a great opportunity for me just to walk all over you. So my vote is for Fire Warriors! times 50.. that's pretty sweet.

Well, for the poor OP, We are left with one particular question. Do you want a Tau list that's not going to lose every game (ie somewhat compeditive) or do you want a 'everything I take is to win and nothing else matters' list?

While I don't have extensive experiance with kroot heavy lists to tell if they work well, I don't think their always the best, nor do I think that Firewarror squads can't compeate. I've killed my fair share of mechanized lists with my Tau, and my fire-warriors are the bedrock of my army.

But even if you could absolutely prove to me Kroot were always a better choice then firewarriors, I wouldn't do a no-fire warrior army. One has to ask why you want to play an army in the firstplace. I chose Tau because I liked the firewarrior.

As a final note, your ability to stomp a 50-firewarrior player with your ork list is all but irrelivent to this question. Not a single one of us has sugested he take 50 firewarriors.

Shep wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Fire Warriors, OF ANY VARIETY, are a more competitive choice than a unit of outflanking kroot with kroot hounds. ESPECIALLY with kroot hounds.
Kroot have their uses, yes, close combat is not among them.

I don't usually do so much cross posting, and if someone has the wrong idea and is insanely passionate about it I usually let it go, but you're really passing off some bad advice to a newish tau player so, i'll bite and go one more time.


In my play experience (I am a tournament player, I play 2-5 games per week, I own a tau army, the other 5 members of my gaming group are generally viewed as 'hardcore' and competitive list minded) fire warriors are absolutely awful. They are overcosted, they have no ability to kill tanks (and a great deal of serious players are running fully mechanized lists) Their leadership is too low, and they do not do well when advancing towards an objective, either inside a devilfish or on foot.

Kroot have the same leadership, the same save in cover, point for point equivalent shooting versus infantry, harder to make take morale tests at 25%. A unit of 10 kroot with 5 kroot hounds can consistently beat space marine combat squads, eldar jetbikes, ork lootas, imperial guard infantry squads (even blobbed stubborn squads), and any vehicle in the backline with rear armor 10 will take between 3-8 glancing hits. Enough to silence, and possibly stack permanent damage.

LOL! I don't know where you bought your dice, but please order me some. Kroot beating orks in HTH is the funniest thing I've heard all day. Yes you specified lootas, so if some ork player decides to take one of the silliest units in his 'dex the Kroot squad you have 'tooled out for hand to hand' might eke out a win. I'm sorry, but I can't even fathom this scenario.

Shep wrote:The synergy with a shooty tau army is fantastic. Spread objectives at far corners on both sides of the table, and your opponent has no idea where you will come from. they will have to rush your superior shooting, and then the kroot will arrive from reserve behind them, on the objective, killing soft backline units.

As I explained before, kroot hounds are what make a kroot unit able to beat so many different units in assault. Just scroll up if you need to see it again.

I'm a big advocate of people playing with units that work for them, and that many different types of units can perform the same role. But this is a case where I just have to halt anyone from trying to make an army built around fire warriors.

So taking a mediocre skirmish unit provides good synergy? This is similiar to a principal referred to as target denial. In target denial, you try to avoid a particular type of unit (usually vehicles) to make your opponents units less than optimal (anti-vehicle units). So in an army that has little to no competency in close combat, you advocate taking close combat units? I would understand having one unit to serve as a counter charge threat/screen or an outflanking objective grabber. But basing your army around it is ludicrous.

Shep wrote:My first game at the Vegas GT last year with my ork army was against a tau player who had built a list to beat orks. It contained 50 fire warriors. He explained to me that he took them so that he could beat the new ork army. He was a great sport, but i tabled him and got a 20 point massacre result. My army was 3x30 boys units and 2x15 loota units with killa kan support. He pulled the 'best case scenario' matchup on game one of a tourney, and was tabled. How well do you think those fire warriors held up against a mechanized army?

To make it perfectly clear. No troop choice in the Tau codex is particularly good. Many different codexes have more flexible and more powerful troops. But among the bad choices, taking kroot with hounds gives you the most maneuverability and the highest chance of actually doing something. I am absolutely 100% on this.

Your experience with this player leaves out several pertinent details. 1.) Was the rest of his list also dedicated to dealing with horde type orks? 2.) I'm sure you had more things in your list (i.e. an HQ, sounds like you were fully meched). Was this player prepared to deal with this or foot sloggers? 3.) How bad of a player was he? You make him sound incompetent, which he may very well be. But I am not questioning his list construction at the moment as much as his tactics. Ultimately, this may be evidence in this argument but by no means is it a definitive example of 'kroot superiority.'

I Firewarriors. Their basic weapon is incredible. Combine them with Devilfish (which IMO are the best transport in the game) and they become very deadly. I've played a 50 firewarrior list vs. mech orks before. I've won each time as well (3-0) and I don't even play Tau regularly. But we're getting back to anecdotes and that really proves nothing.

If you mass Firewarriors they need two things to be effective. 1.) Pathfinders and 2.) smart deployment. An individual squad of Firewarriors is not going to scare anyone. But give them a Devilfish for the 'Fish of Fury' gambit. Or deploy them so they have support fire from an additional squad (or crisis suits) and you have forced your opponent into assaulting through a withering field of fire. Urban arenas are great for this, as alleyways are natural choke points and above ground positions can earn you another turn of shooting and expanded LOS. Lastly, with Pathfinder support, you can bump their BS. Or if you have a squad with Pulse Carbines, you can Pin approaching squads. I find massed Firewarriors not just viable, but down right effective. They do require a tactically sound commander (but what army doesn't )