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QFT Lots of truth

DJ66 wrote:

Shep wrote:

Canonness Rory wrote:Fire Warriors, OF ANY VARIETY, are a more competitive choice than a unit of outflanking kroot with kroot hounds. ESPECIALLY with kroot hounds.
Kroot have their uses, yes, close combat is not among them.

I don't usually do so much cross posting, and if someone has the wrong idea and is insanely passionate about it I usually let it go, but you're really passing off some bad advice to a newish tau player so, i'll bite and go one more time.


In my play experience (I am a tournament player, I play 2-5 games per week, I own a tau army, the other 5 members of my gaming group are generally viewed as 'hardcore' and competitive list minded) fire warriors are absolutely awful. They are overcosted, they have no ability to kill tanks (and a great deal of serious players are running fully mechanized lists) Their leadership is too low, and they do not do well when advancing towards an objective, either inside a devilfish or on foot.

Kroot have the same leadership, the same save in cover, point for point equivalent shooting versus infantry, harder to make take morale tests at 25%. A unit of 10 kroot with 5 kroot hounds can consistently beat space marine combat squads, eldar jetbikes, ork lootas, imperial guard infantry squads (even blobbed stubborn squads), and any vehicle in the backline with rear armor 10 will take between 3-8 glancing hits. Enough to silence, and possibly stack permanent damage.

LOL! I don't know where you bought your dice, but please order me some. Kroot beating orks in HTH is the funniest thing I've heard all day. Yes you specified lootas, so if some ork player decides to take one of the silliest units in his 'dex the Kroot squad you have 'tooled out for hand to hand' might eke out a win. I'm sorry, but I can't even fathom this scenario.

Shep wrote:The synergy with a shooty tau army is fantastic. Spread objectives at far corners on both sides of the table, and your opponent has no idea where you will come from. they will have to rush your superior shooting, and then the kroot will arrive from reserve behind them, on the objective, killing soft backline units.

As I explained before, kroot hounds are what make a kroot unit able to beat so many different units in assault. Just scroll up if you need to see it again.

I'm a big advocate of people playing with units that work for them, and that many different types of units can perform the same role. But this is a case where I just have to halt anyone from trying to make an army built around fire warriors.

So taking a mediocre skirmish unit provides good synergy? This is similiar to a principal referred to as target denial. In target denial, you try to avoid a particular type of unit (usually vehicles) to make your opponents units less than optimal (anti-vehicle units). So in an army that has little to no competency in close combat, you advocate taking close combat units? I would understand having one unit to serve as a counter charge threat/screen or an outflanking objective grabber. But basing your army around it is ludicrous.

Shep wrote:My first game at the Vegas GT last year with my ork army was against a tau player who had built a list to beat orks. It contained 50 fire warriors. He explained to me that he took them so that he could beat the new ork army. He was a great sport, but i tabled him and got a 20 point massacre result. My army was 3x30 boys units and 2x15 loota units with killa kan support. He pulled the 'best case scenario' matchup on game one of a tourney, and was tabled. How well do you think those fire warriors held up against a mechanized army?

To make it perfectly clear. No troop choice in the Tau codex is particularly good. Many different codexes have more flexible and more powerful troops. But among the bad choices, taking kroot with hounds gives you the most maneuverability and the highest chance of actually doing something. I am absolutely 100% on this.

Your experience with this player leaves out several pertinent details. 1.) Was the rest of his list also dedicated to dealing with horde type orks? 2.) I'm sure you had more things in your list (i.e. an HQ, sounds like you were fully meched). Was this player prepared to deal with this or foot sloggers? 3.) How bad of a player was he? You make him sound incompetent, which he may very well be. But I am not questioning his list construction at the moment as much as his tactics. Ultimately, this may be evidence in this argument but by no means is it a definitive example of 'kroot superiority.'

I Firewarriors. Their basic weapon is incredible. Combine them with Devilfish (which IMO are the best transport in the game) and they become very deadly. I've played a 50 firewarrior list vs. mech orks before. I've won each time as well (3-0) and I don't even play Tau regularly. But we're getting back to anecdotes and that really proves nothing.

If you mass Firewarriors they need two things to be effective. 1.) Pathfinders and 2.) smart deployment. An individual squad of Firewarriors is not going to scare anyone. But give them a Devilfish for the 'Fish of Fury' gambit. Or deploy them so they have support fire from an additional squad (or crisis suits) and you have forced your opponent into assaulting through a withering field of fire. Urban arenas are great for this, as alleyways are natural choke points and above ground positions can earn you another turn of shooting and expanded LOS. Lastly, with Pathfinder support, you can bump their BS. Or if you have a squad with Pulse Carbines, you can Pin approaching squads. I find massed Firewarriors not just viable, but down right effective. They do require a tactically sound commander (but what army doesn't )

In my play experience (I am a tournament player, I play 2-5 games per week, I own a tau army, the other 5 members of my gaming group are generally viewed as 'hardcore' and competitive list minded) fire warriors are absolutely awful. They are overcosted, they have no ability to kill tanks (and a great deal of serious players are running fully mechanized lists) Their leadership is too low, and they do not do well when advancing towards an objective, either inside a devilfish or on foot.

They have a S5 weapon. Kroot have a S4 weapon. They, unlike kroot, can penetrate AV10, and glance AV11, also, they are infantry, saying they can't take out heavy armor is like complaining pistols aren't long range enough, that's not their job. They are 3 points more than kroot, for a better armor save, the ability to take Devilfish, a stronger and longer ranged weapon, and, for 10 points more, better leadership.

Kroot have the same leadership, the same save in cover, point for point equivalent shooting versus infantry, harder to make take morale tests at 25%. A unit of 10 kroot with 5 kroot hounds can consistently beat space marine combat squads, eldar jetbikes, ork lootas, imperial guard infantry squads (even blobbed stubborn squads), and any vehicle in the backline with rear armor 10 will take between 3-8 glancing hits. Enough to silence, and possibly stack permanent damage.

Kroot have the same base leadership, but pay 21 points for Ld8, compared to 10 for Fire Warriors. Everyone gets 4+ cover, WORSE SHOOTING HANDS DOWN. They have bolters, Fire Warriors have the best base infantry weapon in the game, +1S, +6" range. A unit of 12 Fire Warriors can consistently beat space marine combat squads, eldar jetbikes, ork lootas, or imperial guard infantry squads at ranged combat. They can also immobilize,shake, or stun Rhinos turn 1, something kroot can't even dream of.

The synergy with a shooty tau army is fantastic. Spread objectives at far corners on both sides of the table, and your opponent has no idea where you will come from. they will have to rush your superior shooting, and then the kroot will arrive from reserve behind them, on the objective, killing soft backline units.

Fire Warriors have great synergy with their own army too ya know, being shooty and all.

As I explained before, kroot hounds are what make a kroot unit able to beat so many different units in assault. Just scroll up if you need to see it again.

Kroot hounds are far from a competitive choice. They make kroot passable in CC, but for 6 points a piece don't even get a single shooting attack. And are still T3

I'm a big advocate of people playing with units that work for them, and that many different types of units can perform the same role. But this is a case where I just have to halt anyone from trying to make an army built around fire warriors.

I don't care if you've won every tourney in the country, Fire Warriors, especially with warfish and combined with some markerlights, are a fantastic unit.

My first game at the Vegas GT last year with my ork army was against a tau player who had built a list to beat orks. It contained 50 fire warriors. He explained to me that he took them so that he could beat the new ork army. He was a great sport, but i tabled him and got a 20 point massacre result. My army was 3x30 boys units and 2x15 loota units with killa kan support. He pulled the 'best case scenario' matchup on game one of a tourney, and was tabled. How well do you think those fire warriors held up against a mechanized army?

Yeah I play against scrubs sometimes too.

To make it perfectly clear. No troop choice in the Tau codex is particularly good. Many different codexes have more flexible and more powerful troops. But among the bad choices, taking kroot with hounds gives you the most maneuverability and the highest chance of actually doing something. I am absolutely 100% on this.

It's spelled "Codices"

Canonness Rory wrote:Gunline Tau IS Useless, Considering ANYBODY that reaches your gun line is going to SHRED YOU TO PIECES. You mess people up for the first couple turns, but turn 3 when those Space Marines get out of their rhino, fire their bolt pistols, and assault you, it's game over man, game over.

And that's not even considering all the pain you're going to recieve, what with everything out in the open and exposed.

If you are playing gunline tau those rhinos won't ever make anywhere near your gunline, especially with 6 broadsides on the table nevermind his firewarriors and suits throwing down glances. If your gonna say "oh but smoke launchers" markerlights deal with smoke quite nicely, and even if a squad of marines makes it into hth they will wipe the fcw's off the table in one round of melee and be staring down the rest of his army in rapidfire range in the following shooting phase, good job you killed 120 points of fcw's and lost 180 points of marines in return.

I play gunline with 36 fcw's and 3x3 squads of broadsides, I've had dual lash armies concede at the bottom of turn 3, sure getting assaulted sucks but with no more consolidating into new assaults you trade them 1 squad for 1 squad of if you spent the past 2 turns blowing their heads off at range while they struggled to get into melee that is a winning proposition for you.

This isn't to say it is an invincible list, it works so well because nobody is expecting a gunline of that proportion is todays mechanized evironment, yes anyone who prepared for it could rip it up but with everyone worried about rhino trains, valkyrie spam, and waveserpents full of aspect warriors very few people are prepared to deal with a tau list containing no vehicles and lots and lots of dakka.

DJ66 wrote: Yes you specified lootas, so if some ork player decides to take one of the silliest units in his 'dex the Kroot squad you have 'tooled out for hand to hand' might eke out a win.

Stopped reading after this...

Man your perception of what is good in 40k is baffling.

Enjoy the thread.

To the OP, if you'd like to hear more from me on list critique, feel free to PM me.

I agree with Shep's post above. Lootas are one of the better Ork units, you're wrong about them being rubbish.

I also find the idea that his "horde" army was "all mech" according to you, even when Orks have no transport that can carry 30 models, completely absurd. I kind of suspect you're trolling to wind other posters up, due to the relatively high degree of interest shown in this thread.

I also agree with shep.

If you are paying for bulk foot slogging FWs you are not getting your moneys worth.

Kroot are not great, but in 5th edition they are a much stronger troop choice then FWs. Close Combat is more potent than ever before, generic cover provides a 4+, and mobility (IE flanking) has become huge in objective based games, those are all good reasons to utilize Kroot.

Look, I like firewarriors, but I have no illusions here : half the heavy weapons in the game ignore their 4+ save, and having a s5 basic gun doesn't mean much in a metagame dominated by mech lists and guns that kill the living crap of infantry. Firewarriors are more expensive, and the only reason I don't run kroot is because A: I run FULLY mechanized with 8 skimmers; and adding infantry in there would mess up my heavy weapon-tilt strategy and B: I sorta dislike the model (They're a pain to put together. and what the hell are those things on the sprue? is that a turd on a stick?) in a normal "take all comer" list however, they (kroot) are probably the best choice you can buy for the army troopwise, aside from going with minimum squads in devilfish.

And for the record, Rory, you use markerlights, a HEAVY weapon with devilfish squads? Please, please tell me you do not burn points that way. Hide in the fish, boys!

Kroot beat orks in CC if they get the charge. every time I play Tau with any build of my orks I need to get the charge off on the kroot or I loose the squad, but all shooty FW's... when I get in (and I will) I'll krump em'.

fatal_GRACE wrote:But in all seriousness, my Khorne army would probably rip this list up once they got into CC. You might consider a few kroot or another light, expendable unit to screen your gunline, because once you have enemy troops in there, it's all over.

Agreed

That's markedly less true now then it used to be, sense you can no longer consolidate in to another squad. Although the squad you charge will indeed be wasted, with the new morale rules I don't have to worry about them actualy trying to fight. Which leaves all your assault troops within rapid fire range of a bunch of my FW.

Sidenote, Drones dropped off from fishies make good screen units.

Grimgob wrote:Kroot beat orks in CC if they get the charge. every time I play Tau with any build of my orks I need to get the charge off on the kroot or I loose the squad, but all shooty FW's... when I get in (and I will) I'll krump em'.

Kroot come in squads of 20, with up to 12 kroot hounds.
Orks come in squads of 30.

Each kroot gets 2 attacks on the charge.
Each Kroot hound gets 3.
For a full, gigantic squad of kroot on the charge, that;s 76 attacks, at WS4, S4.

Each ork boy gets 3 attacks if they get charged.
That's 90 attacks, but they go second.

For the kroot, that's 38 hits, 19 wounds, 16 dead orks.
Orks get 45 attacks back, and 3 PK attacks
22.5 hits, 1.5 PK hits.
11 wounds, 1 PK wound.

12 kroot dead, compared to 16 orks dead. Orks lose by 4, but are far from wiped out, even if you get the charge.
Next turn, each kroot only gets 1 attack, and each hound only gets 2.
Each ork still gets 3.

Kroot have 2 weapons, which effectivly gives them 2 attacks base.
So your off by 20 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, ~4 unsaved wounds. Which then reduced the ork counter-attack by another 15 attacks (-6hits, -3wounds). which actualy equates to 21 orks killed, 9 kroot dead.
Your orks also assume sluga-boys, that the kroot have not shot while they approched. Against shoota boys, or with the opertunity to shoot first, the kroot do better.

Of course, if the Sluggaboyz were shot by firewarriors before the kroot charged, then its much much better.

Kroot have kroot rifles, which only counts as a single close combat weapon, and nothing else.
Sorry, 2 attacks per kroot on the charge.

Their weapons are also only rapid fire, not assault, so you could not have shot in the same turn you assaulted, and you could not have moved and shot in any of the previous turns. You COULD have shot, but that means giving orks the assault.

Orks, on the other hand, have either pistols or assault weapons, which means if anyone is shooting before they meet, it's gunna be the orks.

Special rules for Kroot Rifle: Also counts as two close combat weapons

Mars.Techpriest wrote:Special rules for Kroot Rifle: Also counts as two close combat weapons

Wrong, it counts as a single close combat weapon, I have the codex sitting right in front of me, would you like me to scan it for you?

No need, I'll read it when I get home.

It's plain as day, page 29. "The Incredible hand speed that kroot posses makes these weapons effective assault weapons and kroot with kroot rifles count as having an additional close combat weapon"

Then page 37, all it lists under their equipment is the kroot rifles. So 1 close combat weapon.

I've always read that entry on page 29 to meaning they get +1 attack from having the rifle.

It's impossable to give Kroot another weapon, so that rule has no other point. Not to mention it says "having an additional close combat weapon" not "counts as a close combat weapon"

I'll be the first to admit I can't further justify this reading with RAW. (which I'm sure someone will throw at me), but it's far to illogical to me to read it the other way.

It is pretty stupid, but dem's da rules, and they're clear as crystal.
They'll probably fix it next codex.

That's so evidently against RAI that I would have immense difficulty playing someone who attempted to enforce it against me. Is there not some sort of basic rule that assumes all units are counted as having at least 1 CCW in CC?

No, there is not, and no, it is not RAI, because it is so obvious. all they would have had to do was give kroot one more CC weapon.

Kroot are a shooty unit, not an assault unit.

'Additional close combat weapon'. Whatever, we obviously disagree and there's no point having it out on a forum. I just think the rule is clearly meant to be one way and you don't agree.

I just had to get involved...

Canonness Rory wrote:No, there is not, and no, it is not RAI, because it is so obvious. all they would have had to do was give kroot one more CC weapon.

Kroot are a shooty unit, not an assault unit.

It is indeed RAI, and how do I know this, by reading GW's official Codex: Tau Empire Errata & FAQ at GW's home page.

"Page 29 - Kroot Rifle

The last sentence should be changed to:

Kroot with Kroot Rifle count as having two single-handed weapons in close combat."

So yes, Kroot with Kroot Rifles indeed have 2 base attacks, 3 in charge.

Kroot in charge will cut equivalent Ork Mobs to pieces. Even Slugga Boyz will likely lose CC. Of course, I, as a Tau player, would just love if my Ork opponent would bring Slugga Boyz instead of Shootas. I do not fear them the slightest, compared to Shootas.

How much better Fire Warriors are at shooting than the Kroot? Lets see:

On Rapid fire range, 12 Fire Warriors costing 120 points will put out 24 shots, of which 12 will hit, and 8 will wound (assuming T4). We assume that targets are Ork Boyz, who get no save.

At same range, against same opponent, 17 Kroot costing 119 points will put out 34 shots, of which 17 will hit and 8.5 will wound.

Surprise! Kroot are more efficient at shooting Orks than FW's! And they can beat Orks in a charge...and they can outflank and infiltrate. It is suddenly not hard to see why many Tau players have switched to Kroot.

Sure, there are downsides. Ld8 is indeed much more expensive to Kroot than FW. And extra range and S of Pulse Rifle is sometimes useful. But overall, I feel that in many situations, I get more bang for a point with Kroots.

GW had a useful FAQ? Hell must be freezing over.

Alright, you win, I wasn't aware of the FAQ.

@ DJ66

Lootas will die to kroot almost all the time. You overestimate orks not on the charge, they just arn't that great. ST3 I2... VS. 20 kroot who just shot you I'd give it to the kroot almost always. If 20-30 orks charge kroot in the open well then i'd probably bet on the orks but then again no one is dumb enough to actually leave them in the open without a purpose (ex speedbump) and then your going to get shot to death the next turn.

And wait, Lootas silly? Oh yeah pumping out 15-45 ST7 shots a turn must suck! The ability to hurt almost anything but AV14 must be horrible! 30 shots against AV12. 10 hit. On average, 1 will pen 2 will glance. 1/3 chance to destroy on pen, 1/36 chance to destroy on glance but still. I have taken down a Star God with these bad boys. Carnies get hurt also. 30 shots, 10 hit, 5 wound, he fails 2 on average. Not bad. 45 shots and its dead on average. They are great for wrecking skimmers and stuff like that also.

Lets say a unit of 15 kroot with 5 kroot hounds shoots and assault Lootas. 15 shots 1/2 hit 1/2 wound = 3 dead. 12 Lootas Left. Kroot charge and b/c of high initiative attack first. 45 attacks from the kroot = 1/2 hit 1/2 wound = 10 orks dead. 2 left. Kroot hounds 15 attacks. 1/2 hit 1/2 wound = 3 orks dead. ALL GONE!

This could be used with just a normal 20 man boyz squad only with 4 left getting 9 attacks and 3 PK if you have them. Boys = 1/2 hit and 1/3 wound = maybe a kroot dead. PK = 1/2 hit 5/6 wound = 1 dead. You killed 2 maybe. Congrats.

Another use - protect your flanks from Outflanking units.
Another use - protect you sides from being deep striked into.

They allow you to not spread out your firebase to protect against deep strikers in your deployment. All for about (with the unit used above) 135 points. And, they get a 3+ cover save in jungles. Nice.

And no-one said to "base" his army off of kroot, Tau are anchored by Devilfish, Hammerheads, XV88's and Crisis. Pathfinders maybe.

Target Denial? What are you talking about? Taking a unit that is tough as nails to get out of cover and does very well in assault is great synergy to troops who are incompetent in assault. How does target denial work with Kroot? I understand what your saying about vehicles but what are you making useless by not taking Kroot? His assault troops will rock your FW's still and your Crisis, his shooting troops still hurt you, your point doesn't make any sense. If you trying to say "His assault guys won't be as effective!"... wait till they hit your crisis or FW line, 5 Orks will hurt you badly if they make it. A Nob Squad will rock your infantry all the way to the dead pile, Berzerkers will rip you to shreds period. I've seen 3 berzerkers and Kharn rip 6 crisis suits in one turn. Wouldn't it have been nice to have soaked them up in assault with a 100 point unit then plasma storm them next turn? O wait you were to dumb to take kroot sorry for you loss!

Truthfully as I read more of your post you sound dumber and dumber. You can't be mechanized with 3x 30 units of boyz or 15x lootas or KK's for one because he never said trukks or BW in the guys list, and what vehicle can hold 30 boys or Killas. Nice. Calling lootas a silly unit is also incredibly stupid and shows your a noob, they are probably one of the best you can get. With a good range and high powered weapons, whats not to like. With 30 shots they can take out 9 Firewarriors a turn on average. That sucks right!

Mass firewarriors will never work. If your not tyranids or orks and you don't run mech, you won't be competitive in 5E period. Try versing a seercouncil or nob biker list. Unless you get very very very lucky, your done. Zagstruk and Snickrot will also ruin your day. And lootas will just <3 killing all your firewarriors!

Look at what Backfire said above me. He's smart.

@Canonness Rory
Kroot hounds are for their I5 . Sweeping advances on I5? Yes please thank you very much.

EzeKK wrote:@ DJ66
Look at what Backfire said above me. He's smart.

Why thank you. I'd like to continue showing off my smartness: alas, Kroot cannot shoot & assault, since their guns are Rapid fire. IMO, Kroot are more like "opportunity attack" troops rather than assault troops. You can't play them like Boyz (might be fun to try though...Shaper, 19 Kroot, 12 Hounds = 233 points).

I agree with Backfire's note. Kroot should be in cover, so unless your target is I4 & has grenades, your actualy better off saying in cover, get a round of double-tap shooting and be assaulted, then running out of your forest to go get someone.

I really wouldn't stand around and wait to be assault with Kroot If I had the choice between shooting Ork Boyz and then eating their assault, I'd rather be a bit preemtive and deny them their Furious Charge + Extra Assault attack, get the assault attack and sweep the orks off the board, then say try to consolidate back into cover, if possible. I think waiting for the assault is a bad choice.

How it worked against me was, I get a little too close to table edge and they get off a outflank assault and kill my unit or vehicle :( I learned to stay away from the edges after that. Their outflank ability I think is a key to their success, as being able to hit the back field of the enemy is great in objective missions.

Well bear in mind in the above example you get to attack first anyway, so it's a question of whether 2 shots + 2 attacks is better than 3 attacks. Generally the higher number will be better.