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I might be thining 4E but can't you shoot once with the rifles then assault? I might be pulling this out of my ass too lol.

I see that there is rule clarification, but I am still baffled as to how someone could interpret the word additional to mean that they only have one...

gitsnak wrote:I see that there is rule clarification, but I am still baffled as to how someone could interpret the word additional to mean that they only have one...

idk lol

EzeKK wrote:

gitsnak wrote:I see that there is rule clarification, but I am still baffled as to how someone could interpret the word additional to mean that they only have one...

I realize they have two shots due to rapidfire, but I got taught when I started playing that you can opt to shoot once and assault, or rapidfire and not assault. Probably wrong lol.

He meant the Kroot CCW question, I suspect. I too think that someone seriously trying to deny that the Kroot counting as having two CCW's is not the intended point of the rules is rules-lawyering to a high degree and would be uncomfortable playing them. Nevertheless, the issue is resolved so it's probably best to leave it.

To Shep, Ezekk and Loota advocates:

Perhaps it is my local gaming scene, but I have never seen them fielded effectively. Perhaps my opponent takes too few of them. Perhaps they simply have bad luck. Their damage output in my experience is nothing compared to a mob of boyz with power klaw. Perhaps calling them 'silly' was hyperbole, but they have yet to make an impression on me when I have faced them.

Also Ezekk, take a deep breath and reread my 'target denial' analogy. If your army has no good close combat units, you should probably play a gunline (tau). If it has no good shooting units (like nids or orks to a large degree) you should focus on hth. Basically an army should focus on its 'core competency.' For Tau, that means shooty units.

edit: It is also worth mentioning that all the pro Kroot math-hammer previously assumes a Kroot unit gets the charge. I am of the opinion that thanks to the Waagh! Special Rule that this outcome is highly unlikely, and Waagh! can even overcome a scenario where the Kroot would be able to Rapid fire into the mob of boyz thanks to a 12+d6'' threat range. If the boyz have a truck this is pretty much a given.

To address this still raging debate on Kroot vs. Firewarrior:

I believe Ezekk said 'no one told the OP to base their army on Kroot.' I think Shep all but did. I continue to think this is a fool hardy idea. To the poster who compared Kroot and Firewarrior shooting...I will trade on average .5 wounds for an extra 6'' range (which is essentially another round of shooting, guranteed to cause more than half a wound) and a better armour save and LD value. And let's mention the other useful upgrades a Shas'ui can take like Drones, Bonding Knives and a Marker Light.

I can see taking one, at most two Kroot units for Counter charge and outflanking. But advising someone to take no Firewarriors at all and pure Kroot is ridiculous.

Can't take all kroot. FW's are a manditory unit ( at least 1 unit). P.S. don't twist other peoples words, he didnt say take all kroot he just said kroot are better than FW's, which has been proved by all the mathhammer and my lootas kick ass!!! Who do you play 12 year olds?.

DJ66 wrote:To Shep, Ezekk and Loota advocates:

Perhaps it is my local gaming scene, but I have never seen them fielded effectively. Perhaps my opponent takes too few of them. Perhaps they simply have bad luck. Their damage output in my experience is nothing compared to a mob of boyz with power klaw. Perhaps calling them 'silly' was hyperbole, but they have yet to make an impression on me when I have faced them.

Ok, fair enough. and I've beaten banshees in close combat with crisis suits; but this would not be a sound assessment from which to determine that banshees are bad in close combat. Perhaps your local player is just bad with the army.

Also Ezekk, take a deep breath and reread my 'target denial' analogy. If your army has no good close combat units, you should probably play a gunline (tau). If it has no good shooting units (like nids or orks to a large degree) you should focus on hth. Basically an army should focus on its 'core competency.' For Tau, that means shooty units.

reread? why yes, let us do so!

"So taking a mediocre skirmish unit provides good synergy? This is similiar to a principal referred to as target denial. In target denial, you try to avoid a particular type of unit (usually vehicles) to make your opponents units less than optimal (anti-vehicle units). So in an army that has little to no competency in close combat, you advocate taking close combat units? I would understand having one unit to serve as a counter charge threat/screen or an outflanking objective grabber. But basing your army around it is ludicrous."


Ah, I see the misunderstanding. You see, DJ66, the issue is simple: those of us who are "pro-kroot" advocate taking kroot not because they are "close combat units". we advocates taking kroot because firewarriors... suck. They are 10 point t3 models with a save that gets ignored by a lot of weapons already... meaning you'll be hiding in cover anyways!. add to that that kroot are cheaper, have a larger max squad size, are better (but don't excel, exactly) in close combat... they're just flat-out better for anyone seriously considering a gunline army.

edit: It is also worth mentioning that all the pro Kroot math-hammer previously assumes a Kroot unit gets the charge. I am of the opinion that thanks to the Waagh! Special Rule that this outcome is highly unlikely, and Waagh! can even overcome a scenario where the Kroot would be able to Rapid fire into the mob of boyz thanks to a 12+d6'' threat range. If the boyz have a truck this is pretty much a given.

see, I can actually agree with you here. But, again, I think anyone advocating kroot because they are "good in assault" is advocating the right thing but for the wrong reason. firewarriors are expensive and die easily. kroot also die easily, but can hold their own in cc and are comparatively cheaper. they are simply a better buy in an metagame environment where it is very, very easy to kill infantry.

To address this still raging debate on Kroot vs. Firewarrior:

I believe Ezekk said 'no one told the OP to base their army on Kroot.' I think Shep all but did. I continue to think this is a fool hardy idea. To the poster who compared Kroot and Firewarrior shooting...I will trade on average .5 wounds for an extra 6'' range (which is essentially another round of shooting, guranteed to cause more than half a wound) and a better armour save and LD value. And let's mention the other useful upgrades a Shas'ui can take like Drones, Bonding Knives and a Marker Light.

I can see taking one, at most two Kroot units for Counter charge and outflanking. But advising someone to take no Firewarriors at all and pure Kroot is ridiculous.

Again, metagame, fiend. Mech armies are notorious popular in today' competitive environment, and like it or not, but firewarriors are good at killing.. infantry. yes, 12 firewarriors rapid-firing will mess up av 10? guess what? so will any virtually any infantry squad with a couple of plasma guns, or a similarly powered special/heavy weapon! firewarriors, are overpriced, fragile, and now that I see you going on about them... overrated. so go ahead and use lots of firewarriors. Go play dark eldar and watch them get pinned, then assaulted to death. or go play necrons, and watch a deep-striking monolith frag half your troops in one turn. or go play a land-raider spam list, and pray you can railgun 2 smoked land raiders because your troops can't do anything useful for 3 turns. note, that all of the above happened to me when I thought firewarriors were awesome and ran dismounted squads of them all the time. At least kroot could outflank and steal an objective.

and as for those wargear options?... ha! ok, let's see:

Drones: Ok, gun drones are like firewarriors, but bs2, but twinlinked so it's basically as good as bs 3... t3, 4+ save... waaaaait a second! this is just a firewarrior hiding in a trashcan! Get out of there, shas'la!

Shield drones? maybe a broadside or a suit, yeah, but for these guys? come on, how are they going to benefit from this in way that they can't get from cover?

Marker drones? yes, let's put the horribly point-expensive model on the squad that can lose half it's members to a well placed blast marker and lose ALL it's members to a lone, bored, khorne bezerker (guess what? that happened to me too when I played gunline! gunlines sure are great, aren't they?)

bonding? regroup under half? seriously? It's ok, but I'd hardly call it "great"; particularly against assault armies where it probably won't matter if you have it or not.

markerlight? ok, now you finally got something that's "ok". and by "ok" I really mean, it's alright if mounted on a stealthsuit or a skyray., which will actually have a shot at not dying if a oblitorator or a leman russ tries to drop pie-plates on them. pathfinders are just as easy to kill as firewarriors, but at least they have an excuse to be outside a fish: their fish got carjacked by the firewarrior squads of all the smart tau players.

I'd be more understanding, but frankly, you stated that "lootas were a bad unit" earlier. you have a tremndously warped view of how tau plays, and the fact that you said "Perhaps my opponent takes too few of them" (regarding kroot) means I'm not even sure whether you're talking about yourself or an opponent's tau. I do know this: iif you have been beating people with the tactic's you've described, you've been getting away with murder. Seriously, either they're really bad, or... I don't know, maybe, you are in fact, as grimbob suggested, playing 12 year olds.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:
Ah, I see the misunderstanding. You see, DJ66, the issue is simple: those of us who are "pro-kroot" advocate taking kroot not because they are "close combat units". we advocates taking kroot because firewarriors... suck. They are 10 point t3 models with a save that gets ignored by a lot of weapons already... meaning you'll be hiding in cover anyways!. add to that that kroot are cheaper, have a larger max squad size, are better (but don't excel, exactly) in close combat... they're just flat-out better for anyone seriously considering a gunline army

But, again, I think anyone advocating kroot because they are "good in assault" is advocating the right thing but for the wrong reason. firewarriors are expensive and die easily. kroot also die easily, but can hold their own in cc and are comparatively cheaper. they are simply a better buy in an metagame environment where it is very, very easy to kill infantry.

To address this still raging debate on Kroot vs. Firewarrior:

I believe Ezekk said 'no one told the OP to base their army on Kroot.' I think Shep all but did. I continue to think this is a fool hardy idea. To the poster who compared Kroot and Firewarrior shooting...I will trade on average .5 wounds for an extra 6'' range (which is essentially another round of shooting, guranteed to cause more than half a wound) and a better armour save and LD value. And let's mention the other useful upgrades a Shas'ui can take like Drones, Bonding Knives and a Marker Light.

I can see taking one, at most two Kroot units for Counter charge and outflanking. But advising someone to take no Firewarriors at all and pure Kroot is ridiculous.

Again, metagame, fiend. Mech armies are notorious popular in today' competitive environment, and like it or not, but firewarriors are good at killing.. infantry. yes, 12 firewarriors rapid-firing will mess up av 10? guess what? so will any virtually any infantry squad with a couple of plasma guns, or a similarly powered special/heavy weapon!

So at first the premise for Kroot was that they fight better than Fire Warriors. Now you're trying to convince me they shoot better than Fire Warriors? puleahse. Same BS. Firewarriors have a longer range and a higher strength. Yes, FW can down light vehicles. Yes so can squads with plasma weapons. Can Kroot take plasma weapons? No. Can Kroot hope to harm anything with AV 11? No. Whose better vs. AV 10 Firewarriors or Kroot? Who has a longer range and a higher strength? Really, there is no question that Fire Warriors are far superior to Kroot in shooting.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:... I thought firewarriors were awesome and ran dismounted squads of them all the time. At least kroot could outflank and steal an objective.

bonding? regroup under half? seriously? It's ok, but I'd hardly call it "great"; particularly against assault armies where it probably won't matter if you have it or not.

"Perhaps my opponent takes too few of them" (regarding kroot) means I'm not even sure whether you're talking about yourself or an opponent's tau. I do know this: iif you have been beating people with the tactic's you've described, you've been getting away with murder. Seriously, either they're really bad, or... I don't know, maybe, you are in fact, as grimbob suggested, playing 12 year olds.

Fish of Fury is a time honored tactic at this point. I'm sorry you didn't have good results with it, but it has won me plenty of objectives and consequently games.

Bonding is awesome because both of these units in question have low leadership values. You seem to have forgotten that taking casualties from shooting also forces leadership checks. Bonding is a good upgrade. You are absolutely right that the other upgrades are lame. But no one had brought them up, and if we're to gain a complete perspective they are at least worth mentioning.

You have misinterpreted that quote. It regards my opponent (playing Orks) taking too few lootas. And seriously, laboring this point over lootas is not pertinent to this thread. If you want to bring that up, at least find an ork list thread.

Bottom line: You can't convince me that Kroot are better than Fire Warriors in any shooting phase played or to be played in the history of 40k. You have convinced me that Kroot are better in hth than I previously believed, due to their low cost and sheer numbers. Honestly I will give them a shot. But I am not going to take one unit of Fire Warriors and use my 5 other troop choices on Kroot, and I think anyone who does is really hindering themselves.

Kreedos wrote:

fatal_GRACE wrote:But in all seriousness, my Khorne army would probably rip this list up once they got into CC. You might consider a few kroot or another light, expendable unit to screen your gunline, because once you have enemy troops in there, it's all over.

Agreed

A Khorne army rips up like any list in CC...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
does anyone else feel really really sorry for the OP

Yes. Actualy, the OP has probibly stopped reading a long time ago.

It's not that bad. The discussion has validity as regards making a competitive Tau list, which was what he asked for help building.

So at first the premise for Kroot was that they fight better than Fire Warriors. Now you're trying to convince me they shoot better than Fire Warriors? puleahse. Same BS. Firewarriors have a longer range and a higher strength. Yes, FW can down light vehicles. Yes so can squads with plasma weapons. Can Kroot take plasma weapons? No. Can Kroot hope to harm anything with AV 11? No. Whose better vs. AV 10 Firewarriors or Kroot? Who has a longer range and a higher strength? Really, there is no question that Fire Warriors are far superior to Kroot in shooting.

I am not saying they shoot better. I am saying that to fixate on the superior shooting of firewarriors is to look at the unit the wrong way. You argue for the viability of the firewarrior because of his pulse rifle, but in the greater scheme of things, that is literally all they have going for them. It is a unit who, due to the changing climate of 40k, is simply less useful than it previously was. This will be my last post in this thread, so I'll summarize my points as follows:

1. 5th ed made assaulting armies faster via run, and there are plenty of armies that can get in assault, very very quickly. An extra 6'' is fairly irrelevant in terms of buying you more time to shoot. In this circumstance, the superior (dismounted) infantry unit, is not one who can shoot better, but one you can get more of one, or one that will survive longer, or even win, in assault. This part and parcel of why marines armies, even “mechanized” marine armies often run dismounted squads as fire support. This is why is why plague marines can afford to sit out in the open; this is why guardsmen come in 50-man platoons. In the context of a tau codex, kroot are cheaper and are more likely to survive in close combat. All one loses from switching from fcw’s (if they play gunline) is a measly one point of S and 6'' of range; plant kroot in cover and the unit performs better in almost every respect.

“Yes, FW can down light vehicles. Yes so can squads with plasma weapons. Can Kroot take plasma weapons? No. Can Kroot hope to harm anything with AV 11? No.”

As for the statement that kroot cannot harm av11; this is incorrect; if it is really necessary, they can assault and go for glances on rear armor, as can a lot of units. But in terms of shooting; the idea of using pulse rifles against av11… does this statement not speak for itself? You desire to use anti-infantry vs. armor – when this is clearly a job for missile pods and the like. I have yet to meet a marine player who argued for the use of heavy bolters because they can glance av 11. Yet, this is essentially what you did in the quote above.

2. 5th ed, if you haven’t noticed, has a lot of armies with guns that kill high av infantry very, very quickly – and to be honest… pulse rifles are not one of those guns. Truthfully, they’re ok. But it’s still basically a one-shot heavy bolter, with less range, higher ap, and a bs3 model behind it. But a 200-odd point leman russ executioner with upgrades puts out 5 pie plates that ignore all armor saves, and auto-wound almost everything in the game. Obliterators can pull similar stunts; lootas will utterly destroy whatever they are pointed at. In such a case, making an argument for the good shooting of a unit requires that the unit is able to stay alive. If you haven’t noticed, the two most popular tau strategies – ninja and mech tau, respectively – do things which keep infantry models out of harm’s way as much as possible. The former hides stuff off board, the latter sticks them in difficult-to-kill tanks. This is not a coincidence. It also not a coincidence that of the two main kroot-based tactics- pillboxing vs. outflanking – outflanking is vastly more common.

3. 5th ed made shooting less useful by making cover more prevalent. This seem like a contradiction to my above point, right? Keep reading. In various matchups between horde orks and tau players I KNOW to be good - in every case, the ork player was getting cover extremely often, from terrain, screening units, etc. This means that the primary target of fcw shooting - infantry- are now more likely to survive being shot. In such a case, again, kroot are better because a higher output of shots will mean more failed cover saves. Markerlights increasing bs seem viable until one realizes that the bs3 (usually) of the firer means that you really need to spend about 20 (at the cheapest) points for every markerlight hit you get a turn. (And they’d be better spent helping railguns hunt tanks in cover)

Incidentally, this overabundance of cover has secondary effect – it makes it notoriously hard to kill or drive off infantry sitting in cover. I know this because it has been a recurring problem for my mechanized tau army. “But aha!” you may be thinking. “If infantry in cover is hard to kill, why talk about fcw fragility?” Well, you see, this isn’t a big deal for the player who is being shot if he’s just trying preserve a kill point of hold an objective until turn 5. – he/she just goes to ground and he has a reasonable shot at keeping that unit/objective. This DOES present a problem for units who you’d rather have shooting however, such as fire warriors. Without the ability to put out s5 shots, a group of firewarriors is just glorified squad of 4+ save guardsmen. And fcw do not have particularly large squad size, nor are they cheap, nor are they durable. If they were even one of these things this would be less of a problem, but the fact is when fighting a list that can put out a lot of fire power (firepower DE lance spam, mech guard, lash/oblits … the list goes on and on) you now choose between shooting with the unit for one, two, (maybe three turns if the guy has awful target priority or you have golden dice) before losing it from concentrated firepower – or having it go to ground and… do absolutely nothing except be more expensive than kroot would be in the same situation

3rdly, How does one drive units off objectives? Unless your codex has one of the big-name infantry killers listed above like plasma cannons or something like that, then it certainly isn’t shooting, particularly if the unit in question is fearless. The answer is assault. Yes, assault. There are certain units, like necrons, or plague marines, it takes huge amounts of shooting to kill the unit. It would be easier to whittle the squad down a little bit with shooting, and then hopefully get a sweeping advance/no retreat situation going on in assault. Even if the game ends tied in combat, you are contesting the objective. Guess what unit in the tau army is capable of this? Will it work against the units listed? Maybe not, since kroot don’t have frags. But I’m willing to bet that point for point, 200 points of outflanking kroot can come closer to making it happen than 200 points of fire warriors.

Look, firewarriors, do have a role in a gunline army… I think. And that role is either A: sitting in a fish to hold an objective, or grab on in the middle – or B: to sit in cover and basically act like a heavy weapon squad. Let’s comparing them to a devastator squad – compared to kroot, fcw, have a better, but specialized gun, are not something you want in close combat, a smaller squad size… (and yes, I know dev’s can go up to 10 men, but have you ever actually seen anyone think it’s a good idea? I haven’t.) They certainly seem to have all the requisites for the latter; they have a smaller squad size than kroot, they have a much more defined role… but like most heavy weapons squads, I can’t see the need for than one or two squads of them, max, in a gunline tau army, seeing as how kroot do the actual “taking and holding of objectives” thing much better than fcw’s do. Of course, this is all regarding gunline tau. If you got devilfish, then obviously, you’ll want firewarriors. But if you feel the need to play gunline, or advise someone on gunline tau… well, what am I supposed to do? Give bad advice? I mean I LIKE fcw’s! I love the model, I love the design, but damn, they are just flat out bad in the metagame right now.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:

So at first the premise for Kroot was that they fight better than Fire Warriors. Now you're trying to convince me they shoot better than Fire Warriors? puleahse. Same BS. Firewarriors have a longer range and a higher strength. Yes, FW can down light vehicles. Yes so can squads with plasma weapons. Can Kroot take plasma weapons? No. Can Kroot hope to harm anything with AV 11? No. Whose better vs. AV 10 Firewarriors or Kroot? Who has a longer range and a higher strength? Really, there is no question that Fire Warriors are far superior to Kroot in shooting.

I am not saying they shoot better. I am saying that to fixate on the superior shooting of firewarriors is to look at the unit the wrong way. You argue for the viability of the firewarrior because of his pulse rifle, but in the greater scheme of things, that is literally all they have going for them. It is a unit who, due to the changing climate of 40k, is simply less useful than it previously was. This will be my last post in this thread, so I'll summarize my points as follows:

1. 5th ed made assaulting armies faster via run, and there are plenty of armies that can get in assault, very very quickly. An extra 6'' is fairly irrelevant in terms of buying you more time to shoot. In this circumstance, the superior (dismounted) infantry unit, is not one who can shoot better, but one you can get more of one, or one that will survive longer, or even win, in assault. This part and parcel of why marines armies, even “mechanized” marine armies often run dismounted squads as fire support. This is why is why plague marines can afford to sit out in the open; this is why guardsmen come in 50-man platoons. In the context of a tau codex, kroot are cheaper and are more likely to survive in close combat. All one loses from switching from fcw’s (if they play gunline) is a measly one point of S and 6'' of range; plant kroot in cover and the unit performs better in almost every respect. .

So being in range on turn one as opposed to turn two is irrelevant? I would never call losing 1 S and 6'' of threat range 'measely.'

Milquetoast Thug wrote:“Yes, FW can down light vehicles. Yes so can squads with plasma weapons. Can Kroot take plasma weapons? No. Can Kroot hope to harm anything with AV 11? No.”

As for the statement that kroot cannot harm av11; this is incorrect; if it is really necessary, they can assault and go for glances on rear armor, as can a lot of units. But in terms of shooting; the idea of using pulse rifles against av11… does this statement not speak for itself? You desire to use anti-infantry vs. armor – when this is clearly a job for missile pods and the like. I have yet to meet a marine player who argued for the use of heavy bolters because they can glance av 11. Yet, this is essentially what you did in the quote above.

You seem to be confused. I am not 'advocating' this as a strategy. If I want to pop AV 11, the ideal weapon to deal with this in a Tau army is missle pods. But if we're comparing these two troop choices, let's compare what they can and can't do. Don't patronize my legitimate comparison by turning it into something it is not.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:[2. 5th ed, if you haven’t noticed, has a lot of armies with guns that kill high av infantry very, very quickly – and to be honest… pulse rifles are not one of those guns. Truthfully, they’re ok. But it’s still basically a one-shot heavy bolter, with less range, higher ap, and a bs3 model behind it. But a 200-odd point leman russ executioner with upgrades puts out 5 pie plates that ignore all armor saves, and auto-wound almost everything in the game. Obliterators can pull similar stunts; lootas will utterly destroy whatever they are pointed at. In such a case, making an argument for the good shooting of a unit requires that the unit is able to stay alive. If you haven’t noticed, the two most popular tau strategies – ninja and mech tau, respectively – do things which keep infantry models out of harm’s way as much as possible. The former hides stuff off board, the latter sticks them in difficult-to-kill tanks. This is not a coincidence. It also not a coincidence that of the two main kroot-based tactics- pillboxing vs. outflanking – outflanking is vastly more common.

First of all, your comparison to leman russ's and oblit's is way off base. Don't muddle the issue; stick to fire warriors vs. kroot as that is the choice. Congratulations, you've correctly identified that a pulse rifle does not kill high av infantry. You know what else doesn't? A kroot rifle, or even a kroot attack in close combat because the squad can't have a power weapon. This is just pointless filler and not on topic.

Let's talk about outflanking real quick. If you want to play a gunline army, why are you taking up to 5 units off the table for at a minimum 2 turns? You don't want to come at your opponent in waves. You want to strike hard and fast in the early game so whatever is left standing will not be a threat to your troops in the mid and late game when they can be assaulted. Yes, outflanking is good for grabbing objectives in the late game. But it doesn't support a gunline strategy because you're taking firepower off the board and giving your opponent a free pass in the early game.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:3. 5th ed made shooting less useful by making cover more prevalent. This seem like a contradiction to my above point, right? Keep reading. In various matchups between horde orks and tau players I KNOW to be good - in every case, the ork player was getting cover extremely often, from terrain, screening units, etc. This means that the primary target of fcw shooting - infantry- are now more likely to survive being shot. In such a case, again, kroot are better because a higher output of shots will mean more failed cover saves. Markerlights increasing bs seem viable until one realizes that the bs3 (usually) of the firer means that you really need to spend about 20 (at the cheapest) points for every markerlight hit you get a turn. (And they’d be better spent helping railguns hunt tanks in cover).

But you don't get a higher output of shoot with Kroot. They have a shorter range, thus fewer shots. They have a lower strength, so the shots that do hit aren't as effective. More wounds, which is forcing more saves, is what you need to overcome better saves not more shots. Including markerlights actually is better for firewarriors, because you will wound more often and not have to deal with the cover save.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:[Incidentally, this overabundance of cover has secondary effect – it makes it notoriously hard to kill or drive off infantry sitting in cover. I know this because it has been a recurring problem for my mechanized tau army. “But aha!” you may be thinking. “If infantry in cover is hard to kill, why talk about fcw fragility?” Well, you see, this isn’t a big deal for the player who is being shot if he’s just trying preserve a kill point of hold an objective until turn 5. – he/she just goes to ground and he has a reasonable shot at keeping that unit/objective. This DOES present a problem for units who you’d rather have shooting however, such as fire warriors. Without the ability to put out s5 shots, a group of firewarriors is just glorified squad of 4+ save guardsmen. And fcw do not have particularly large squad size, nor are they cheap, nor are they durable. If they were even one of these things this would be less of a problem, but the fact is when fighting a list that can put out a lot of fire power (firepower DE lance spam, mech guard, lash/oblits … the list goes on and on) you now choose between shooting with the unit for one, two, (maybe three turns if the guy has awful target priority or you have golden dice) before losing it from concentrated firepower – or having it go to ground and… do absolutely nothing except be more expensive than kroot would be in the same situation.

Your logic here is really convuluted. First you seem to imply that comparatively speaking, you'd rather have firewarriors shooting than kroot (duh). Then you're complaining about them being victims of units with 'a lot of firepower.' Kroot have a lower armor save, so they are even more vulnerable to this. Bolters rip through kroot. At least fire warriors get an armor save. Yes, Kroot have field craft. That's great, if you're in woods. That bonus is so situational it's hardly worth mentioning. Honestly the difference here is so minor you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:[3rdly, How does one drive units off objectives? Unless your codex has one of the big-name infantry killers listed above like plasma cannons or something like that, then it certainly isn’t shooting, particularly if the unit in question is fearless. The answer is assault. Yes, assault. There are certain units, like necrons, or plague marines, it takes huge amounts of shooting to kill the unit. It would be easier to whittle the squad down a little bit with shooting, and then hopefully get a sweeping advance/no retreat situation going on in assault. Even if the game ends tied in combat, you are contesting the objective. Guess what unit in the tau army is capable of this? Will it work against the units listed? Maybe not, since kroot don’t have frags. But I’m willing to bet that point for point, 200 points of outflanking kroot can come closer to making it happen than 200 points of fire warriors. .

Here is my 200 point Tau Fire Warrior Objective taker unit.

10 Firewarriors
Devilfish with Disruption Pods, Flechette Discharger and Target Array

I can drive units off an objective without getting in to hand to hand. I can drive forward and unload 10 Firewarriors and 2 Gun Drones within rapid fire range. They can shoot you off the objective. If the Firewarriors destroy them, the Gun Drones can run and claim the objective (part of a troop choice, they score). Or I can tank shock you off the objective. If you DoG me, I still have AV 12 which is no joke (Str 8 needs 4 to glance 5-6 to pen) and a Flechette Discharger that could kill you before you strike. Personally I take Multitracker instead of Flechette's. But it works well for this exercise. At this point, I have taken no casualties and driven the enemy from their objective. Your Kroot have been withered down in assault (which they might still lose) and if you don't break your opponent (which you probably won't because you're a mediocre skirmish unit) then the objective is only contested.

There's a 1/3rd chance your outflankers come in on the wrong side of the board to grab on objective. If you take two squads to absolve that randomness, you're looking at 10 kroot with 5 kroot hounds in each squad. If that unit removes a squad of MEQ's from an objective, I'd be surprised. Both of them could, but again with outflank you have to fight your opponent and the dice. In the end the dice always win

Milquetoast Thug wrote:Look, firewarriors, do have a role in a gunline army… I think. And that role is either A: sitting in a fish to hold an objective, or grab on in the middle – or B: to sit in cover and basically act like a heavy weapon squad. Let’s comparing them to a devastator squad – compared to kroot, fcw, have a better, but specialized gun, are not something you want in close combat, a smaller squad size… (and yes, I know dev’s can go up to 10 men, but have you ever actually seen anyone think it’s a good idea? I haven’t.) They certainly seem to have all the requisites for the latter; they have a smaller squad size than kroot, they have a much more defined role… but like most heavy weapons squads, I can’t see the need for than one or two squads of them, max, in a gunline tau army, seeing as how kroot do the actual “taking and holding of objectives” thing much better than fcw’s do. Of course, this is all regarding gunline tau. If you got devilfish, then obviously, you’ll want firewarriors. But if you feel the need to play gunline, or advise someone on gunline tau… well, what am I supposed to do? Give bad advice? I mean I LIKE fcw’s! I love the model, I love the design, but damn, they are just flat out bad in the metagame right now.

Don't compare them with devastators, Fire Warriors are troop choices! I have always used Firewarriors to 'clean up' whatever my crisis teams leave behind. But I am trying to compare these two choices in a vacuum. Kroot are cheaper, more numerous, and have outflank and field craft. Does any of that say 'gunline' to you? Fire Warriors have the highest strength basic weapon in 40k, have a good armour save and the longest basic range of any Troop choice in 40k. Which one sounds like a gunline?

I think ultimately (thanks to your musings on 5e) you've made a good argument for not playing a strict gunline. If you do that, then you're going to need both of these units. You can't rely on waves of outflanking Kroot to make an impact on your opponent. They can go and grab an objective mid to late game. You can use mobile Firewarriors to either reinforce these Kroot or pressure another front in an effort to grab multiple objectives.

I know this conversation got heated at times; but honestly I'm glad both sides fought as hard as they did for their respective views. Next time I get my hands on a Tau army, I will take a squad of Kroot (with lots of proxies probably ) and give them a go. But I hope you can see how Fire Warriors play the part of 'gun line grunt' better than Kroot.

I laughed my ass off when my Kroot kicked my buddies two dreads asses in an assault (and they attacked HA)!!!

Zeev wrote:I laughed my ass off when my Kroot kicked my buddies two dreads asses in an assault (and they attacked HA)!!!

Ima have to call BS (not the ballistic skill kind, the kind that comes from a bull) how, exactly, did you accomplish this?
Because, well, looking at the codex, which is right in front of me, it occurs to me.... what you claim to have done is, almost literally, impossible.
Against Walkers you always attack their front armor in assault, which, for dreads, is av12.
Kroot have S4
You would need to roll an 8 on a d6 to even glance it.
Kroot have no options for offensive, defensive, krak, or melbabombs.
Leaving the only possible way to kill a Dread in CC, Krootox Riders.
Which are S6.
Meaning even those can still only glance.

Sorry, Zeev, you lie like a rug, unless, of course, the aformentioned dread was already severely crippled, immobilized, and had suffered several weapon destroyed results, in which case, you can hardly say it was your kroot who beat it.

Marker lights are the deciding factor here, if you don't have any in your list go kroot for all the reasons listed above. If you realize that markerlights are a major reason to play tau these days then take FW's, BS5 fw's shooting at units who were previously counting on their coversave is money in the bank. Firing your railguns at smoked landraiders who aren't benefitting (via markelights) from smoke also money.

Saying that firewarriors are useless is just plain assenine, saying they can get the job done on their own however is not. Like the entire rest of your freaking army they have to be properly supported if you don't take the necessary support units then yes by all means kroot will serve you better. Trying to say that kroot have more of a place in a gunline army than fw's however is just plain nonsense.

Thanks a lot for everyone's input, it's much appreciated Is this list any better? D:

Tau list:
HQ:
Commander with Multi-tracker, plasma rifle, fusion blaster, and hard wired drone controller with 2 drones = 107

Elites:
2 teams of:
2 x Crisis suits with mult-tracker, plasma rifle, and fusion blaster
1 x Crisis suit Team Leader with multi-tracker, plasma rifle, fusion blaster, and 2 drones
= 211x2
= 422

Heavy Support:
2 x Hammerhead Gunship with railgun and burst cannons, flechette discharger, and disruption pods – 330
3 x broadside Battlesuit with ASS = 240
= 934

Fast Attack:
4 x Pathfinders and devilfish = 128
4 x Pathfinders and devilfish = 128
= 1190

Troops:
10 fire warriors with pulse carbines and a shas’ui = 110
9 fire warriors with pulse rifles and shas’ui = 100
9 fire warriors with pulse rifles and shas’ui = 100

Should be 1500

Kroot shoot better than firewarriors:

Kroot: wounds inflicted per point (single shot):
On T3- 0.048
On T4- 0.036

Firewarriors: wounds inflicted per point (single shot):
On T3- 0.042
On T4- 0.033

The extra 6" of range is pretty much irrelevant in 5th.

This thread both amuses and irritates me at the same time. It's pretty obvious who here has actually played Tau competitavely (at the big tournaments). Shep has, and he is spot on with his comparison between kroot and firewarriors. The Tau army list really doesn't lack for st5 shooting and most of the options are much more efficient than Firewarriors.

I agree with your mathhammer. And you are correct that unless you use Tau like they were guard, the extra 6" rarely comes in to play. (And before anyone asks, no I have not played Tau in a major event.) IMHO The Firewarrors become useful in three situations.

1) Boards with little cover. Not likely something you'll have to deal with compeditivly, but a throwdown game at your FLGS my not have enough cover for everyone to be in it. Once cover's removed, the Firewarrior's 4+ armor and/or AP5 becomes helpful.

2) Transport option. If you want to go mechanized, Firewarriors are your only real option. (buying pathfinders then putting 12 kroot in their transports doesn't quite work as cleanly)

3) Marklights. If you have an abundance of Marklights, they can be used to increase the BS of the firewarriors, or reduce the opponents cover save (useful against guard, who don't get their armor vs. pulse weaponry) Even a +1 BS will shift your wounds/point in the firewarriors favor.

Returning to Zoot, It's less troops then I usualy run with, but I think your list above is pritty solid, particularly if you have your Tau squads hi-jack the pathfinder's 'fishs. You could also consider (on many peoples advice here it seems) swaping out one of the fire warrior squads for Kroot to infultrate, hunker down and hold an objective. (particularly if you can put an objective in a forest.) With that much fusion and Railgun, I hope you find yourself up against a mechanized army.

Because you have your anti-heavy armor pritty well covered, you could consider adjusting some suits. Eather drop one team to TL Missiles and Flamer (cheap 3rd hardpoint, and you never know when it'll be useful) or swap one suit in each team to TL missiles and Target Lock. I'd also bond the teams, you don't want the last two of them unable to regroup if they run. (particularly if the Shas'el's in there with them). The saved points could give you enough to reinforce your troops slightly to. Granted, if you know MEQ are the majority of what you'll be facing, feel free to ignore this part.

(Edited for additional thoughts on Zoot's army)

I just got another Tau vehicle chassis and a railgun and skyray part today, and I was wondering if it'd be worth exchanging the broadsides for a skyray, and adding missiles onto the devilfish and hammerheads, and using the extra points to maybe purchase something like another commander

I'm not a particular fan of Skyrays, but that has more to do with my opponents then with the tanks actual effectiveness (I don't have many opponents that run many vehicles under AV13). It would take care of the anti-light vehicle roll that your somewhat lacking at this moment, and you have enough marklights to take advantage of the Alpha-strike capability (its real advantage).

However, if you do so, I'd use the extra points to beaf up your Troops choices a little bit, rather then on a second commander. At this point you don't really need another suit.

if you do end up playing a Infantry & Russ IG army (or an all landraider SM army), you going to want those Railguns however. Skyray's just don't have the punch to deal with things like that.

DJ66 wrote:
Here is my 200 point Tau Fire Warrior Objective taker unit.

10 Firewarriors
Devilfish with Disruption Pods, Flechette Discharger and Target Array

I can drive units off an objective without getting in to hand to hand. I can drive forward and unload 10 Firewarriors and 2 Gun Drones within rapid fire range. They can shoot you off the objective. If the Firewarriors destroy them, the Gun Drones can run and claim the objective (part of a troop choice, they score). Or I can tank shock you off the objective. If you DoG me, I still have AV 12 which is no joke (Str 8 needs 4 to glance 5-6 to pen) and a Flechette Discharger that could kill you before you strike. Personally I take Multitracker instead of Flechette's. But it works well for this exercise. At this point, I have taken no casualties and driven the enemy from their objective. Your Kroot have been withered down in assault (which they might still lose) and if you don't break your opponent (which you probably won't because you're a mediocre skirmish unit) then the objective is only contested.

Something about this bothers me. Ah yes, I know what it is.

Page 30 of the Tau Empire codex, in the Vehicle Armoury section under Gun Drones.

The drones may not rejoin the vehicle during a game and will never count as a scoring unit.

Emphasis mine.

Other than the fact you failed to claim the objective, its not that bad a plan, I might use it myself some time. Targetting array is a bit of a waste of points on a fish without SMS.

Doesn't change the fact that there are better ways to use your points.

Here's a question though, what's better out of pulse carbines and pulse rifles if you're in a devilfish?

Pulse Rifles.
At short range they are stronger because of rapid fire.
Or you could use the devilfish as a mobile gunline getaway car.

Pulse carbines are only preferable if you plan on embarking at that area between 12 and 18 inches, or if *shudder* you plan on assaulting afterward.

Ah good because almost all my fire warriors have rifles Is it worth taking a mix in a squad or just having all rifles?

All rifles, all the time.

Anyone have any good battle reports with Tau to reinforce their advice? I think it would be cool to see the tactics and scenarios in which the advice works.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236864.page

That is a perfect example of how Ninja Tau works. Shep also explains a little bit about that lists strengths and weaknesses.

Haha I actually played against Shep and that list and he destroyed my Chaos Renegades with it I was one of the three people in the Tale of Three Gamers for which this match/battle was fought.