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Since there's no WHFB General Discussion forum, I'll post it here. I apologize if this is the wrong forum.

Recently at my FLGS, an argument broke out concerning two guys and their unfavorable armies. I wasn't there at the time, since i don't play WHFB, but I did get a good bit of info of what happened.

So, on the day that the WHFB guys show up, the regular bunch were just playing and trying out their armies for the coming tourney later that week. Then, two guys walk in, with some really cheesey armies (one of them I knew, he had Dark Elves with 2 Hydras and a Dragon). When the guys went to test out their armies, bad went to worse and then the argument broke out. They argued about how such bad sportsmen the two were and how the people at my FLGS don't play "omfg gotta win" armies.

Don't get me wrong, both of those statements are true. Both of those guys are known to be horrible sportsmen, and we try not to play 'win no matter the cost' armies at my FLGS.

Anyway, no fists were thrown, but it got mighty close to that. Everyone ended up putting away their armies and leaving.

On the day that the tourney was supposed to happen (conveniently dated on the same day that the 40k players come play), only 1 guy showed up with his Lizardmen. He wasn't there on the day of the argument, so he wasn't aware of why he was the only guy there. It seems that none of the guys who were part of the argument decided to show up. Sad part was, the guy who did come had a very nicely painted army, and would have easily won the Best Painted prize.


Now, having read that, what's your opinion on cheesey armies in Warhammer, or any wargame for that matter?

Cheese is an imaginary construct created by players in an attempt to explain away or blame others for their own shortcomings or failures.

Bad sportsmanship is a separate issue.

Bring a cheese filth list to a tournament, but don't be a WAAC type of guy.

Though, I wouldn't mind if you are.......usually.

If it's for a tournament I don't see the problem with a bringing a cheese list and it would probably give the regulars a better chance of coming up with a counter. That being said playing an incredibly powerful list against someone who plays casually and being a poor sportsman isn't kosher.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Cheese is an imaginary construct created by players in an attempt to explain away or blame others for their own shortcomings or failures.

Bad sportsmanship is a separate issue.

Pretty much on the mark.

Cheese CAN be a product of either bad book design or codex creep. In regards to fantasy though, I have found that the game requires enough skill that a "cheesy" army is not enough to autowin.

Sports and Cheese influence each other:

If your army is extremely dirty filthy cheese to the point of being practically unfair, you can be extremely gracious while playing and still pound the absolute hell out of your opponent. That is the luxury of having a total excess of power.

On the other hand, if you are hugely overmatched, then in many cases, you may need those various little breaks to fall your way just to pull a draw.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote: They argued about how such bad sportsmen the two were and how the people at my FLGS don't play "omfg gotta win" armies.

cry some more??


but seriously if people say they dont play to win then why would they care if someone brings a better list than them??

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't people enter tournaments to win? As opposed to a campaign weekend or something.

I don't understand how someone can complain about the prospect of playing a powerful army in a tournament. As they say, if the waters hot, get out of the bath.

I understand people not going to a tournament if they know they can't win, but crying about it is pathetic

H.B.M.C. wrote:Cheese is an imaginary construct created by players in an attempt to explain away or blame others for their own shortcomings or failures.

Not when the rules are as horribly unbalanced as the Warhammer Fantasy rules. If you don't know what you're doing and you drop a few hundred bucks on a crappy army then chances are you aren't going to drop a few hundred more on something better.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Bad sportsmanship is a separate issue.

Yes

How can an army be practically unfair? They'd have the same amount of points right?

Don't go to a tournement if your really that worried about running into a well constructed (note I don't believe in cheese). And personally i've found that the people who bring the weaker lists are the ones far more likely to be poor sports.

Although I do have to say i haven't been playing fantasy lately since it's become far more unbalanced by far than 40k ever was.

I've played against some cheese lists at tourneys.
In most cases, the owning player has been a vary good player, both polite and good sports. I don't mind losing against these people.

The guys that say "oh, that sucks! Bad luck, eh?" when my GK Terminators scatter off table and then get a destroyed result in turn 2 (and actually mean it).

The few cheesy army players who were the opposite I'd rather not play again.

Hulksmash wrote:How can an army be practically unfair? They'd have the same amount of points right?

Although I do have to say i haven't been playing fantasy lately since it's become far more unbalanced by far than 40k ever was.

And with your last sentence, you do a good job of answering your initial question. WFB points aren't the same army book to army book.

2000 pts of Tier 1 / Tier 0 WFB will easily crush the same 2000 pts of Tier 3 / Tier 4 WFB. Point for point, the top WFB armies are far better than the bottom WFB armies, and all else being equal, the fight is essentially about as "fair" as a teenage girl stepping into a MMA octagon with one of the Gracies, despite the match being the same number of people fighting.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If your army is extremely dirty filthy cheese to the point of being practically unfair

Cheese is imaginary.

There is no such thing as an 'unfair' list. There are only 'legal' and 'illegal' lists. If you lose to a legal list, you have lost. If you lose to an illegal list, you have been cheated.

Cheese is imaginary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

artyboy wrote:Not when the rules are as horribly unbalanced as the Warhammer Fantasy rules.

No, unbalanced rules don't create 'cheese'. Cows create cheese. Sometimes goats do as well. Probably other animals as well. All unbalanced rules do is create imbalance. Cheese is imaginary.

And much like sportsmanship, spending money on a crap army and doing badly with it is a separate issue.

Ok, Counter-Strike example time!!!

In CS, many servers ban certain sniper rifles (AWPs and AUGs. Riot Shields as well). This is because with a little training these weapons make it way to easy to be killed by no real fault of your own. It is possible to win, but you have very limited options, and the large amount of sneaking involved is simply not fun. In the end it isn't fun for the player with the gun either, since they don't really have to do anything. CS is about suspense and action, not lame trying to find people who can't shoot at you.

A cheesy list is like someone who uses AWPs. Yeah, its allowed, but it limits everyone else's options to the point that there is only one viable list per army. lame.

WAAC win at all costs. Some people are confused, thinking that people who don't play WAAC aren't playing to win, and that is not true. They play to win, just not by violating the first rule of both 40 and fantasy: to have fun (both you and your opponent). A WAAC player, plays to win at the expense of his opponents fun. The "cost" he is paying is fun. This is how professional sports are played, where pay $$ is based upon winning. I feel that WAAC is not appropriate for a "fun game". Some would argue that WAAC is, however, appropriate at a tournament, as there are often prizes involved.

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:WAAC win at all costs. Some people are confused, thinking that people who don't play WAAC aren't playing to win, and that is not true. They play to win, just not by violating the first rule of both 40 and fantasy: to have fun (both you and your opponent). A WAAC player, plays to win at the expense of his opponents fun. The "cost" he is paying is fun. This is how professional sports are played, where pay $$ is based upon winning. I feel that WAAC is not appropriate for a "fun game". Some would argue that WAAC is, however, appropriate at a tournament, as there are often prizes involved.

QFT

I don't mind cheesy lists. Its the attitude of the player that I'm wary about. If you got the tool, why not use it?

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:Now, having read that, what's your opinion on cheesey armies in Warhammer, or any wargame for that matter?

Personally, I don't care. I lose every game anyway, so it doesn't even matter if the opponent has a legal list.

Simple.


Fight cheese with a bigger cheese stick.







I just use my 15 tank IG army.

I too believe that sportsmanship is a seperate issue. Being polite and gracious should be a general part of life, not just during competitive toy soldiers. Being a jerk is a jerk move no matter what you are doing.

As for cheese I agree with HBMC. There is no such thing. Imbalance in the codex is caused by poor game design. The "cheese" mongers simply use the poor design and take advantage of it.

There are no cheesey armies when playing competitvely. In a tournament, if there is no composition score setup by the tournament director then players may bring whatever they like. It is a part of the game that everyone must learn to deal with in tournaments.

If you all were trying out tournament army lists, it was perfectly within their rights to bring the pain.

If you are looking for a less beardy army then challenge an opponent to a simple friendly game.

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:
Don't get me wrong, both of those statements are true. Both of those guys are known to be horrible sportsmen, and we try not to play 'win no matter the cost' armies at my FLGS.

WAAC armies?
WAAC is a player descriptor.
If you do not design your ARMY to win, you are a fool to bring it to a tourney. In fact its questionable to bring to most any game an army you do not design an army list to win. I will presume that means you are playing to draw then, as playing to lose would make its own thread's would of discussion. In fact I think there have been a few threads, and it is a nasty thing to do to your opponent, was the general opinion.

Horrible sportsmen are another thing that are best left out of a tourney, but honestly they should be left out of any game.

I love playing against lists and players that are REALLY good.

shrug

I used to be a believer until I was unfortunately part of a cheese war several years ago at an Indygt.

*chimes and harp music as I go back in time*

I entered into a tournament (Sooiepalooza in NW Arkansas) about 5 years ago and brought a standard issue Empire army (along with the good ol Steam Tank). The guys that I game with in Springfield, MO brought our standard RT armies as well. My friend Adam likes his Terror-causers. His list contained a Lord on Wyvern, lots of fanatics, and 2 Giants, my buddy Mark brought his Khorne Daemons led by a Bloodthirster (6th edition Daemons so they were tame compared to current daemons), and my friend Vince brought a WE army led by a WE Lord on a dragon with two treemen. Now I've played these armies several times and didn't think anything of it. I've had my share of success and failures against each.

After the third game I learn that a couple of the guys are talking smack about my buddies. I don't know who it is, but somebody had been complaing that because our group brought such a mass of Terror causers that we were ruining the tournament. Afterwards the forums of the TO became a nuclear zone of bitching and complaining. The discussion is still available online.

Overly Huge linkage Disclaimer
I have provided the link to the "discussion" that followed. Please do not bother any of the users that were involved or join the forum to just flame somebody. Most of the "cheese" claimers quit playing or have since been granted a pariah-status.

http://www.sooiehammer.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1665
^^^ Enjoy!

I don't believe in "cheesy" lists anymore. It was a term I used to use to describe the large, round-bellied, mullet (or skullet) mustached guy who would come into the FLGS, and would play against young kids who didn't understand the game and just manhandle them for the sake of stroking their own ego.

Now I just call them jerks.

I think this was touched upon before. But, if you go into an open gaming night, where everyone brings soft lists, PERHAPS it might be reasonable to just bring a fun list? It seems like ridiculous overkill (and no fun for anyone) when everyone brings non-optimized lists just to have a game, and someone decides to bust out a tournament army. If everyone brings butter knives for a picnic, why on earth did you bring the chainsaw?

In regards to tournament play, why not? You SHOULD bring the hardest, baddest and most over the top list legally possible. If you decide to pay to play, why would you pay the money and NOT try and win? Obviously not trying to ruin everyone's time (being obnoxious or a jerk). You can be a sportsman AND still dominate a game.

punkisntdeadyet wrote:
If everyone brings butter knives for a picnic, why on earth did you bring the chainsaw?

Because the grim darkness of the far future is a picnic?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If your army is extremely dirty filthy cheese to the point of being practically unfair

Cheese is imaginary.

There is no such thing as an 'unfair' list. There are only 'legal' and 'illegal' lists. If you lose to a legal list, you have lost. If you lose to an illegal list, you have been cheated.

Cheese is imaginary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

artyboy wrote:Not when the rules are as horribly unbalanced as the Warhammer Fantasy rules.

No, unbalanced rules don't create 'cheese'. Cows create cheese. Sometimes goats do as well. Probably other animals as well. All unbalanced rules do is create imbalance. Cheese is imaginary.

And much like sportsmanship, spending money on a crap army and doing badly with it is a separate issue.

Way to take the term figuratively. The imbalance that players capitalize on that is created by unbalanced rules is pretty much the definition of cheese.

The main issue isn't "Does cheese exist?" but "Are you playing in a tournament?", where even I acknowledge that hard (ok, HARD in some cases) armies have a place. Then again I heartily endorse comp scoring, and personally softball my armies because I find games are much more enjoyable when two interesting, non-autowin armies go up against each other. No matter my bitching, I can't influence what the other dude takes, but I can in fact build my own army to be refreshing while hopefully still bring some game. (Also, I secretly think it makes you a better general to play with softer, more tactical armies, but my tournament recored will never back me up on that, because in a tournament a weak army is a weak army is a weak army.)

Perturabo's Chosen wrote:Some people are confused, thinking that people who don't play WAAC aren't playing to win, and that is not true. They play to win, just not by violating the first rule of both 40 and fantasy: to have fun (both you and your opponent).

Truth. A game between two people is a contract that should lead to mutual enjoyment. Tournament play messes with that by injecting raw competition into the mix, but that doesn't mean everybody can't still have fun ... What bugs me is how that competitive edge seeps into casual gaming too, so everybody is running these cookie-cutter lists instead of more individualized, interesting lists. But again, I'm a fluff bunny, so what do I know

Final thought: playing an underdog army makes beating the cheeseheads without upgunning feel extra good

- Salvage

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder.

Anyway, that's why we have RULEBOOKS. We all go by it when creating our armies. If I bring a legal army, you're a whiner for not wanting to play it. End of story.

Somehow, I am supposed to be psychic and magically understand all these "extra" rules regarding cheese which I am not supposed to violate. But they're not in the rulebook. They're not in the Codex. They're not written down anywhere. But if some regular named Steve Dave claims that I have brought cheese, then somehow that's supposed to invalidate my legal army?

Apparently at your shop it does. Really is a shame.