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so i was down at my flgs monday, and after fending off the staff and thier planetstrike pitches with stern looks i sat down to do some modeling.
a couple hours later somone came in for a pickup game and i agreed to play them. they wanted to do a game between 1500 and 3000. i hadnt gotten a good apoc game in in a long while, so i asked if they were up to playing apocalypse when one of the staff swung by and casually mentioned that we really shouldnt go over 750-1000 points because they wanted everyone to get as many games in as possible and to keep them quick.

htis was after i was being told about how wonderful planet srike was going to be, espeacialy since its is desgined for larger games.
now my understanding is that GW wants you to play the new systems and play larger games so you have ot buy more modles, but at the same time they dont want you playing in larger games at the stores where you are going to be buying something almost everytime you come in anyway.

so they show you how this new rules set is going to be awesome in a massive game, then turn around and tell me that i cant play over a thousand points in store

has anyone else had a conversation like this? or noticed that they want you to play small games?

The correct solution is to give him a look like he's some kind of back wood idjit, then play the game how you like. If he gives you attitude say Jervis Johnson said you could.


Oh and no, I don't go to GWs and if I did I wouldn't let a redshirt dictate how I play the game.

GW stores are just that, GW stores. They are not FLGS.

Riiiight.

I think the general lesson here is why limit your gaming to your local store?

Boards are cheap and easy enough to make, and if like me you really cannot be arsed, you could always shell out the readies for the Realm of Battle Board.

Use your local store, be it GW or Independant to get your pick up games. And for those whose gaming experience you enjoy, invite them over to yours for a more informal game.

GW and FLGS do not charge you for using their boards, so if asked to play a smaller game than you hoped for is hardly a high demand all things given.

Or do as Fitzeh did, and set up a gaming club for your area. Get your contacts made, round up some names and BAM, you'll have a club you can do whatever in before you know it.

And finally, in life, I have always found using words rather than 'stern looks' tends to get you places. I've had people try to give me stern looks in the past, and the sad truth is, 99% of the time they either look constipated or in some stage of befoulling their trousers.

No need to fly off the handle, or call what was ultimately a perfectly reasonable request (unless of course one is egotistical enough to believe that the free (did I mention that it's free?) facilities are there for you and you alone) pointless.

Agreed. Unless its like the bunker out here in So cal, where they have a small little store thats connected to a huge gaming area with long tables and tons of terrain, a GW store has those dinky little tables that look like half a craps table.

They expect you to play planet strike or appoc games with your friends at a house (who the hell does that?) or go to a FLGS.

Their store is just that. A store. FLGS hold games in their stores to draw business because they dont have the budget GW does and mall locations.

The only exception to this rule I ever saw was the Wizards of the Coast store in the Westminster mall (not to far from the current GW LA Bunker), who had a section of the store devoted to card and table top games, but they also had alot more floor space than the average GW mall store.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Riiiight.

I think the general lesson here is why limit your gaming to your local store?

Boards are cheap and easy enough to make, and if like me you really cannot be arsed, you could always shell out the readies for the Realm of Battle Board.

Use your local store, be it GW or Independant to get your pick up games. And for those whose gaming experience you enjoy, invite them over to yours for a more informal game.

GW and FLGS do not charge you for using their boards, so if asked to play a smaller game than you hoped for is hardly a high demand all things given.

Or do as Fitzeh did, and set up a gaming club for your area. Get your contacts made, round up some names and BAM, you'll have a club you can do whatever in before you know it.

And finally, in life, I have always found using words rather than 'stern looks' tends to get you places. I've had people try to give me stern looks in the past, and the sad truth is, 99% of the time they either look constipated or in some stage of befoulling their trousers.

No need to fly off the handle, or call what was ultimately a perfectly reasonable request (unless of course one is egotistical enough to believe that the free (did I mention that it's free?) facilities are there for you and you alone) pointless.

Good stuff. I am actually planning on making some sort of informal club where we get together and make terrain for our own "Home" boards and terrain pieces. This way we can mix, match, and not be regulated by what someone else's interpretation of the game is.

Indeed. Bored of the necessary constriction GW has in it's store (seeing as your not paying)?

Then nick off and please yourself in your own way.

The staffer just asked you to be considerate to others. I don't see the problem.

Valhallan42nd wrote:The staffer just asked you to be considerate to others. I don't see the problem.

It sets a precedent for stupidity. You must FIGHT precedents.

How has it done that?

If there are many people wishing to use the boards that day, who is being unreasonable? The staffer who requests games be kept small to get as many different gamers playing as time allows, or two gamers who want to use the board for a fair while?

At 3000 points, the two gamers likely have bought $1,000 or more worth of product a piece. I don't think it's unfair for them to make use of the tables to make use of that product.

It's also a win for the store, since a big game like that with Apocalypse units is going to be a lot more interesting and appealing to passers-by and new customers than 750 point skirmishes.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:How has it done that?

If there are many people wishing to use the boards that day, who is being unreasonable? The staffer who requests games be kept small to get as many different gamers playing as time allows, or two gamers who want to use the board for a fair while?

Of course I wouldn't call the staffer unreasonable. He's probably had a hard day and is only trying to keep the peace.

But, in general I would point out that the high price of GW's full price store stock is what pays for the store (i.e. they can afford to sell it at 35-45% discount wholesale - i.e. to large order customers who dont need a store to shop from - and still turn a profit). Therefore if you buy stuff from them in store rather than at an online discount, you morally have in fact paid for the tables in the store and should be entitled to play whatever you want on them with the models you bought in store.

Even the most rabid GW fanboiz regularly defends GW's pricing on the basis of the need to support gaming in store! So what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, surely?

I'm not supporting being an arse to overworked, underpaid blueshirts, but I am saying that if GW don't provide sufficient space to game how you want to game, then the case for supporting their full prices by buying in store just goes away...!

P.S. I totally endorse your call to set up an independent club. More independent gaming clubs is what the hobby really, really needs. Breaking away from the chains of dependence on retailers for gaming space can only benefit the hobby!

Osbad wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:How has it done that?

If there are many people wishing to use the boards that day, who is being unreasonable? The staffer who requests games be kept small to get as many different gamers playing as time allows, or two gamers who want to use the board for a fair while?

Of course I wouldn't call the staffer unreasonable. He's probably had a hard day and is only trying to keep the peace.

But, in general I would point out that the high price of GW's full price store stock is what pays for the store (i.e. they can afford to sell it at 35-45% discount wholesale - i.e. to large order customers who dont need a store to shop from - and still turn a profit). Therefore if you buy stuff from them in store rather than at an online discount, you morally have in fact paid for the tables in the store and should be entitled to play whatever you want on them with the models you bought in store.

Even the most rabid GW fanboiz regularly defends GW's pricing on the basis of the need to support gaming in store! So what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, surely?

I'm not supporting being an arse to overworked, underpaid blueshirts, but I am saying that if GW don't provide sufficient space to game how you want to game, then the case for supporting their full prices by buying in store just goes away...!

P.S. I totally endorse your call to set up an independent club. More independent gaming clubs is what the hobby really, really needs. Breaking away from the chains of dependence on retailers for gaming space can only benefit the hobby!

I agree with ya.

I have not played at a GW, and really have no intention to. I would much prefer not being pestered by their employees to spend spend spend, and "support the hobby". I think of this as a pretty crafty excuse to give GW more money, and support their overpriced goods. Although many can't abandon the models altogether, as mentioned before they can buy elsewhere, the money still ends up with GW either way.

I mainly agreed with the simple ability to cut the GW stores out entirely if their attitude towards your gaming experience leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

If all else fails simply find a new hobby.

Asmodai wrote:At 3000 points, the two gamers likely have bought $1,000 or more worth of product a piece. I don't think it's unfair for them to make use of the tables to make use of that product.

It's also a win for the store, since a big game like that with Apocalypse units is going to be a lot more interesting and appealing to passers-by and new customers than 750 point skirmishes.

And of course, the flip side to the above statement is that sure, two players might have spent $2,000 of gubbins a piece, and an Apocalypse Game is indeed a fun spectacle to watch. But for the NooB or passerby dropping in to investigate, seeing that many models, then looking at the price, could put them off seeing as that could be their first impression. So 750 point games (which I agree are rather titchy for my tastes) demonstrate the games, and at a less terrifying entry price.

But hey, there is also the third option which my GW offers. Book a table. Check with the staff if it's okay to play the big game. Unless it's a club night or another event coming up, I'm sure you'll find them perfectly reasonable. And if it's a no, most staffers I've dealt with in my time will offer to book it another day for you.

Can you book tables for free? I don't know of any FLGS that do that to the best of my knowledge.

At some point customers are going to spend at least 1000$ on an army or two, so seeing this should not be all that shocking. The fact that I would be using and army that was bought and paid for from GW and then I would have to serve as a marketing puppet to play in their stores makes me quite angry in all honesty. On top of this I can't even market the hardcore part of the hobby, which is actually what most people stick around for. Shock value goes a long way with marketing, and showing off amazing and HUGE models will also pull in some really serious customers, regardless of their personal opinions about the SPECIFIC hobby and it's "provider" (GW).

"Note"
Lets be honest here a 750 point game is next to tactless most of the time, simply because you need simple lists to be effective. Lying to customers through false marketing is pretty low, and a great way to lose them anyway.

Bit of a caveat in this one, can you spot it?

I've never been charged to book a table. Usually they just ask what I need it for (less nosey than it sounds. More about system and points value) and then they'll give me it for say, 4 p.m. - 6 p.m. I have a table booked, they have a timescale, and if we don't finish our game in the time, tough titty. Pretty fair all round I feel.

And trust me, as a one time (well, two time actually) staffer, there is nothing worse than having customers waiting for a table whilst two people dither and bicker through a game, having taken half a bloody hour to set up in the first place Though I do hasten to add I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of the above example. It's just an example of the frustrations

Hurrah for editing as we go!

As for wanting to play Apocalypse, if your local store isn't setting aside specific times for this in particular, you really might want to ask why, and possibly report them to their higher up, as they are doing it wrong, wrong, wrong! Remember, Apocalypse is meant for a game against friends, and really isn't terribly suited to pick up games! Planetstrike I won't comment on, as I've not seen let alone read the book yet.

2 hours is actually quite good, but inexperienced gamers that bicker over irrelevant and/or basically meaningless interpretations of the rules will make a game last forever, should be playing on their own tables.

Perhaps I would say that splitting game-play into "Pros" and "Noobs" is a very good idea. No elitism, and this should be heavily enforced, although this is how GW makes so much money so I doubt they would treat it that way.

They kind of do in the UK (don't know a great deal about the US Setup).

Sundays are Beginners Days. Drop little Johnny off, he's taught the complete basics (move, shoot, fight, write, build, paint, convert) over a non-fixed number of weeks. Once (if) they get a real handle on it, they can come down on a Saturday for the Core Club, and take part in the other games laid on. You remain in the Core Club until you're 16, then you can go to Veterans instead. It's not so much Elitism, as just good sense. As you said, watching two kids (or even grown men for that matter) bicker and arse around for 2 hours isn't just depressing, it's embarassing and a really bad advert for the games, and worse, the kind of people that play them.

And it's not lying to customers at all (sorry, just spotted your second edit). You can pay bigger games in store, you just need to give them a bit of a heads up so they can accomodate both your game, and everyone elses.

False marketing is a pretty broad term in my book. Presenting the Hobby as a cheap past-time in anyway is totally ludicrous, and in my book a great example of false marketing.

I have worked for a corporation and said their lines, and done their movements, and stood on my feet at a cash register for 8 hours a day. It was no fun at all, no minis to mess around or decent employee discounts for that matter. But, Oh, boy did I have to kiss customer @#$ for my pitiless minimum wage.

Ah, right. Kind of more with you now. Didn't realise you were quoting/paraphrasing my post.

Now for a better, more accurate, less general answer!

The thing is, you have to show that you can game on a budget, and that although your army may not be complete in your eyes, you don't have to wait to get a few games in. I'm a bugger for this to be honest, and should be the first to admit I don't actually practice what I preach. I design all my Fantasy armies to 2,000 points, and anything beyond that, they don't really work. However, I would say thats more to do with my eccentric builds than anything else (feel free to disagree. I don't bite). For example, my Savage Orc horde totally centres around the chief nutcase and his Wyvern. Or to be more accurate, barrelling him into the enemy General asap and giving them a good shoeing before he gets off the starting blocks (c'mon calling the Waagh! And then casting the spell of the same name just for good measure. And the re-rolls). Hmmm. Disgression. Sorry about that.

But yeah. Whilst not necessarily an accurate view of the wider Hobby, it is not false marketing to demonstrate that you don't need a large army to play the game. Though that will of course sound and feel a lot more convincing if/when GW pull their finger out and release a skirmish style expansion (Kill Team/Border Patrol, or 40k in 40 minutes style) books!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Ah, right. Kind of more with you now. Didn't realise you were quoting/paraphrasing my post.

Now for a better, more accurate, less general answer!

The thing is, you have to show that you can game on a budget, and that although your army may not be complete in your eyes, you don't have to wait to get a few games in. I'm a bugger for this to be honest, and should be the first to admit I don't actually practice what I preach. I design all my Fantasy armies to 2,000 points, and anything beyond that, they don't really work. However, I would say thats more to do with my eccentric builds than anything else (feel free to disagree. I don't bite). For example, my Savage Orc horde totally centres around the chief nutcase and his Wyvern. Or to be more accurate, barrelling him into the enemy General asap and giving them a good shoeing before he gets off the starting blocks (c'mon calling the Waagh! And then casting the spell of the same name just for good measure. And the re-rolls). Hmmm. Disgression. Sorry about that.

But yeah. Whilst not necessarily an accurate view of the wider Hobby, it is not false marketing to demonstrate that you don't need a large army to play the game. Though that will of course sound and feel a lot more convincing if/when GW pull their finger out and release a skirmish style expansion (Kill Team/Border Patrol, or 40k in 40 minutes style) books!

HEY I AM STILL HERE, I will respond in a second

One second

Ok. I am very interested in customer service and "friendly" business. I have worked with people in many types of jobs, most of which involved large-scale projects that would go weeks on end.

I understand that presenting affordable options is important to maintain a customer base. In all honesty I can't imagine a better way to recruit and keep customers than to present them with the full range of options in the very beginning. Now this is the tricky part, and as a Landscape designer one of my jobs is to maintain an sincere aspect of realism in my dealings with a client. I can't find a good way to do this, besides showing them no more than 3 levels of a design at one time. So you have your moderate, advanced, and artisan level landscapes; all of which have very specific limitations as to the clients REAL budget. I won't hesitate to be totally blunt and just say no, that is my job, and I think I do it with a enough kindness to get the point clearly across.

While I agree that presenting a cheaper alternative to a serious army is a reasonable tactic, I also feel that is unfair to the customer in the long run. Most people will invest pretty heavily into the hobby before realizing what kind of situation they are actually dealing with. It is quite easy to do when surrounded by so very very much shiny. Now, what I mean specifically, is that it sounds like GW presents these cheap armies (and uses their other customers to do so...uuuuggggghhh) as a serious game, and some people will take it at face value. I would insult myself by doing this to a client; here is your sandbox, and gravel pathway... that will be 500$. Are you ready to spend the other 500$ now? ...Wait...other 500$, I seemed to have missed that part?

And 10 years into gaming you have spent close to 5000$ very easily, granted they are worth more than a car of equal value in personal value (which you spend the time making...ahem... MY TIME, not GW's). At the 2 year mark if you are aware of the hobbies economical in's and out's you must still own that 750 point army, I truly hope it has served you well

So now we are talking real talk. I will have to post this an continue to elaborate a bit on what it is that I mean.

Valhallan42nd wrote:The staffer just asked you to be considerate to others. I don't see the problem.

There is no problem.

This is just baseless, illogical complaining.

What I took away from the original post is this;
"I wanted to use/abuse the local store as my private gaming room. When the employees dared to try to sell me something, I put them in their place. How dare they! I was just there to do some modeling because I cannot be arsed to do it at home. Later when a guy asked if I wanted to play, they employees asked if we could be considerate and not play too big a game. Whine whine whine."

Wow, then the GW store near where I live must be great. They don't try to push you into buying anything at all. Some of them ask how many points you're going to play and I've never actually heard them ask people to play at a lower level. If theres a few people waiting for a game they might suggest that everyone splits into teams, and that always seems to be accepted and we get some good team games. They'll talk about Planet Strike if you're interested, but they won't come up to you and try to push you into buying it. I think it works better that way. The only time they'll really come to you to talk specifically about buying stuff is when they see anyone looking around at anything, and even then they don't really talk you into buying it. Basically they'll just have a conversation with the person about what they're looking for, maybe what kind of army they're thinking of making. Then they'll make the suggestions, but otherwise they generally don't.

Here in Australia they prefer you to play smaller games at peak times in GW stores as there is usually a few people waiting.

But at other times anything goes.

I'm aiming to get a few 2500 point games in for WHFB during work days at my local GW over the next mont in preparation for a tourney.

There's only one gaming store around here, and it's not owned by GW. They still have lots of connections to GWOZ, with signs everywhere and GW logos on their staff shirts.

They're good chaps though. They despise the redshirts, and they'll approach you asking if you're looking for something and if you've checked out the new releases, but they don't follow you around rabbiting on about it; it's more of a friendly reminder that they've just got some new stuff.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Here in Australia they prefer you to play smaller games at peak times in GW stores as there is usually a few people waiting.

But at other times anything goes.

I'm aiming to get a few 2500 point games in for WHFB during work days at my local GW over the next mont in preparation for a tourney.

Then I must be showing up at good times. Usually on a weekday, there were some people waiting last time, but that's because the school holidays are coming I guess. Had a fun team game though.

avantgarde wrote:The correct solution is to give him a look like he's some kind of back wood idjit, then play the game how you like. If he gives you attitude say Jervis Johnson said you could.


Oh and no, I don't go to GWs and if I did I wouldn't let a redshirt dictate how I play the game.

don't be surprised when you don't allow the idjit to dictate how you play, when you are sitting on a bench outside the store because you can't follow store rules..

who's really the idjit in this scenario?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Here in Australia they prefer you to play smaller games at peak times in GW stores as there is usually a few people waiting.

But at other times anything goes.

I'm aiming to get a few 2500 point games in for WHFB during work days at my local GW over the next mont in preparation for a tourney.

That's how we did it when I worked for GW. The staff were generally smart enough to know when it was ok for a larger game.. We also had a normal time limit of 1 hour on the table if others were waiting.. (we even had a paper sign up sheet for regular gaming days) if no one was waiting, we'd let the game go over a bit.. but if there were people waiting, at one hour, you were asked to clean up. Of course, I'd get the odd (I need to poop look from some) 'stern look' from some but over time, when they were waiting to play, they realized that I was trying to get all 20 people a chance to play on the 2 (or 3 later on) tables we had in the 4 or 5 hours between 5pm and 10pm closing.. (that seemed to be our most 'peak' times)

The few jackasses that still thought it was cool to play overtime, would be forced to the back of the line and given the 'remainder' time and it usually only took one 30 min game for them to straighten up.

Personally I mark much of this down to teenagers testing their limits.. The kids (young adults) 20 and above generally didn't have any issues after we explained the procedure to them.

I think you should stop playing at the store.

Wonder where the OP went?

He hasn't been back to defend his stance.

Oh, and as for treating the staff member as an idjit.... Had you tried that in my day, I'd have taken some pleasure in explaining why you were not the sort of person we really wanted in the store, given you the website address for your purchases, and banned you from gaming in store.

Remember. It's their store, so treat it was you would when a guest in someones house. If it's shoes off at the door, it's shoes off at the door. If it's no swearing, it's no swearing and so on.