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Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





Birmingham - GB

Hi all.

First off, I haven't played many games with the new codex yet, but out of the few I have I've not lost by a long shot. Last game I played my brother (ultramarines) and at the end of turn 4 he was left with one terminator and had taken out about 35 of my foot troops and caused a crew stunned (on a valk - extra armour reduces to crew shaken). I'm just wondering if the new codex with the orders makes guard quite a fiecom army to face now, or whether my experiences so far are down to good luck for me and inexperienced opponents who don't get the most out of their army. I had more challenging games with more of a win-draw-loose balance with the previous codex.

Thoughts?

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Made in gb
Unbalanced Fanatic





Buckinghamshire, England

I do not believe that the new IG are overpowered, (I keep losing with them ) but i believe in certain situations they are kick ass. In some cases the points cost renders some IG units almost useless, (Ogryns). Therefore it all depends on the situation you Guard find themselves in...

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Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter





Birmingham - GB

Ah thanks for that. Thinking about it I don't think I've fought an army tooled up for fast close combat yet, maybe that will proove a bit tricky. And totally agree on the ogryns comment!

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Iron Fang



Troy, OH

covenant84 wrote:Ah thanks for that. Thinking about it I don't think I've fought an army tooled up for fast close combat yet, maybe that will proove a bit tricky. And totally agree on the ogryns comment!

It sounds like you've been playing a bunch of armies (or lists, at least) that are not tooled to your weaknesses. As such, it doesn't surprise me that you've done consistently well and had few problems.
   
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Long have I waited to see the words "are Guard overpowered?" Mark this day.

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Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Frazzled wrote:Long have I waited to see the words "are Guard overpowered?" Mark this day.


At least it isn't IG ARE OP.(My stance)

I think their is a lot to actually talk about here so I will post and edit this message a bit (like I usually do as I write it )

I don't have the new IG codex in front of me but I have taken a look and heard enough to assume the worst, and begin to prepare if I ever want to have a fighting chance (RUN DICE RUN ) against IG in a competitive game. The MoTF is not worrisome to me as an Eldar player, because I either play cat and mouse wholey on the field or I slap you from reserves in a true blue Eldar fashion. Being stuck in reserves in fantastic, it means they lose shooting, and that BY FAR is their strong suit.

Vendettas are simply ridiculous to me, yet they are by no means the best unit in the codex. The strength of IG is it's ability to counter anything in one list with direct action. I have not seen enough games to be know for a fact that the mathhammer makes a huge difference. I could be totally missing something here. Leman russ squadrons are not OP, they are super easy to take out in one salvo and I love them for it (hugs for the tank squadron).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
covenant84 wrote:Ah thanks for that. Thinking about it I don't think I've fought an army tooled up for fast close combat yet, maybe that will proove a bit tricky. And totally agree on the ogryns comment!


Rough riders are mini-shining spears that have the benefit of a ridiculous assault range. Why is it that people still want Ogryns? Sure T5 (I think) with like 3 wounds... and a 6+ armor save. If you think I can't drop those buggers BEFORE assaulting you are simply mistaken. Rough riders hit harder, faster, and with enough range to be a fantastic counter assault unit escort for a chimera squadron for instance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
covenant84 wrote:Hi all.

First off, I haven't played many games with the new codex yet, but out of the few I have I've not lost by a long shot. Last game I played my brother (ultramarines) and at the end of turn 4 he was left with one terminator and had taken out about 35 of my foot troops and caused a crew stunned (on a valk - extra armour reduces to crew shaken). I'm just wondering if the new codex with the orders makes guard quite a fiecom army to face now, or whether my experiences so far are down to good luck for me and inexperienced opponents who don't get the most out of their army. I had more challenging games with more of a win-draw-loose balance with the previous codex.

Thoughts?


Now to your direct question about experience. If you are new and playing vets (like 5+ years ya know?) they will just be better at the actual tactics and applications of their force appropriately to dull your army to a shiny butter knife. It is just the name of the game, but dice can help a bit with this, and here is your foothold. Do a bit of research into your odds before shooting so you can manage your pea-shooters in an effective and economical way. Shooting lascannons at termies that are up in your face is nice... but you should be dropping them with lasgun spam before resorting to the heavy stuff.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/06/25 13:03:26



 
   
Made in us
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Frazzled wrote:Long have I waited to see the words "are Guard overpowered?" Mark this day.


You're telling me. I hope 40k never reaches the point where my username could be considered an actual plea.

Today I didn't even have to use my hot-shot las; I gotta say it was a good day. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Wrexasaur wrote:
At least it isn't IG ARE OP.(My stance)

They are not overpowered. People just need to figure out what IG's weakness's are.
   
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Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?

   
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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






@ Wrexasaur : I don't think you've played an IG army like mine yet if you think Ogryns can't get up to you and assault, not without you sacrificing yourself to my other tactics.

People want to play their Ogryns because they are fun models, fun fluff, fun to play, and have been in the Imperial rosters since at least 2nd Edition (I don't recall if they were in Rogue Trader), but haven't been useful in over ten years! So people were hoping that with the upgrade in toughness they would be useful again. Sadly, their points costing and nerf to their other important stats makes them entirely unusable, even in Apocalypse they are a bad investment!

The new Imperial Guard are definitely not overpowered. If anything, they are just as viable as they were before, but more flexible. Their weaknesses are even greater now than they were before (no more command bubbles and Iron Discipline) and their strengths have received a bump on the nose ("Heavy Weapon Teams," more like "chew my ass and spit it out team") to make them way more vulnerable.

What is probably throwing most players off is that they are a drastically different beast now. No longer have the same lists of the past fifteen years been the most beneficial list for the Imperial Guard. Now there is variety! The new vehicles and units are wonderful alternatives to the stale bread we Guardsmen had for over a decade, and that suprises people. They see the gunlines and the tanks and feel like they know this monster. But then the Valkyries swoop in from reserve and deepstrike, Sentinels bound in from the flanks, and their MEQs are being gunned down by hellguns. It is all a bit disorientating to see the Guard actually rise up from its haunches and march across the battlefield.

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Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?


Against mechvet... kill the Chimeras early and the list can collapse easily.

People get too caught up in the whole "OMGWTFSCARYPLASMADEATHTANKROFLBBQ!!!!!" and try to bring down the Russes and stuff first, which are quite difficult to really kill from range. The mobility provided by the Chimeras is crucial, and removing that advantage exposes the really weak guardsmen who were hiding within them and lets you clip their scoring units out from under them. Killing the Chimeras early also removes the vast majority of the counter punch of the army as you close in on its lines.

And no, IG are not overpowered. People still try to play against them like they're playing against the old codex and that is an absolutely terrible idea. Once people adjust the way they're building their armies and playing against new IG, they won't be as brutal as they are now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/26 04:03:50


 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?


From a Tau perspective, they are fairly easy to pick apart. In the 1750-2000 bracket is not hard to pop 2-3 LRBT a turn, as well as 3-4 Chimera. The Meltavet list is very close range, and can be kited rather easily, while the more expensive and threatening units can be scrapped within two turns.

Mech IG suffers from having a crunchy outside, and a squishy inside. They also suffer from mobility problems. They can be mobile, and they can shoot, but not at the same time.

Valkyries are the only wild card, but they tend to be more of a one shot wonder. It is rare for them to live beyond the turn they arrived. Vendetta's only get one shot on the turn they arrive (as they MUST move more than 6" to get on the table), and thus become a rather expensive single shot lascannon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/26 04:10:02


 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






The better idea for Valks is to keep moving. Any time I have slowed them down, they get shot out of the sky. Move at highest speed and drop your loads via deep strike, if you can't keep your opponent distracted. Valkyries aren't as weak as people think, so once your troops are out, they survive well poking around with their lascannon or hellstrike missiles.

The vast majority of Guard victories are against inexperienced players who are rather scared of the Russ, which isn't as bad as they might think given other targets. Not saying to ignore them, but cripple your opponent first, then try and disarm them.

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The Hammer of Witches





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Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?

Squadrons. Getting careless or outmaneuvered and allowing one Hellhound or Leman Russ to be charged, and then loosing all three in the subsequent damage allocations hurts.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Thats really the same weakness for SM. If Im playing against a SM with a bunch of troop transport. Those are the first things I go for. Ill ignore a LR of anykind. I stop the troops from moving around so fast.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Milwaukee, WI

KingCracker wrote:Thats really the same weakness for SM. If Im playing against a SM with a bunch of troop transport. Those are the first things I go for. Ill ignore a LR of anykind. I stop the troops from moving around so fast.


This is really the only way.

Q1: What's the difference between a horde and a mech army?
A1: The mech army has (generally low or medium AV) transports.
Q2: What are you left with after you scut the (generally low or medium AV) transports in a mech army?
A2: A small horde army.

(Which reduces the problem to a previously solved one.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/26 16:54:27


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Made in us
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader




Northern Virginia

If I've said it once I've said it a million times. The new IG dex has greatly effected the metagame, and is very strong against many of the older uber lists. Due to this fact, people are going to need to make slightly different armies to combat IG in take all comers lists. It just takes time. Also I foresee a distinct rise in DE armies for the tourney scene because dark lances wipe the floor with mechanized lists.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Baltimore, MD

Mech IG is the best Mechanize army available. They trump Marines, Chaos, and Eldar. Tau players talk up their power a lot, but I think the Tau builds that succeed against IG are pretty heavily slanted towards beating one army.

In a MEQ heavy environment, IG can and will run amok with impunity. Arguably, the new IG book is the final blow against the idea that Marines are truly top tier. Any list that can reliably take apart MeQs is always going to be seen as OP by casual and most tournament gamers.

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Bookwrack wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?

Squadrons. Getting careless or outmaneuvered and allowing one Hellhound or Leman Russ to be charged, and then loosing all three in the subsequent damage allocations hurts.


I don't see how you can claim this is a weakness of mech IG, when it's really a weakness of the player, and when you don't have to take squadrons of anything.

"What is the weakness of mech IG?"

"If your opponent is bad."

It's not a real answer.

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Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

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Grumpy Longbeard




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Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?


Kill points.
   
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The eye of terror.

Danny Internets wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?


Kill points.


I like how you actually make sense when you post

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Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

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Grumpy Longbeard




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Me too!
   
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Seoul, South Korea

IG true weekness is the massive quantity of 1's we roll. Yes we can always make our Armor saves (when we get them) but we can't hit the broad side of a barn. Unless you are playing a game of Apoc, IG will never be Overpowering.

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Polonius wrote:Mech IG is the best Mechanize army available. They trump Marines, Chaos, and Eldar. Tau players talk up their power a lot, but I think the Tau builds that succeed against IG are pretty heavily slanted towards beating one army.

In a MEQ heavy environment, IG can and will run amok with impunity. Arguably, the new IG book is the final blow against the idea that Marines are truly top tier. Any list that can reliably take apart MeQs is always going to be seen as OP by casual and most tournament gamers.


So, by everyone then?

(Aside from IG players though, I guess?)
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Polonius wrote:Arguably, the new IG book is the final blow against the idea that Marines are truly top tier.

Aside from certain BA and CSM builds, Marines have never been top tier.

But at least Marines have lots of options.

Unlike IG.

   
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Thermo-Optical Tuareg






Nashville, TN

Frazzled wrote:Long have I waited to see the words "are Guard overpowered?" Mark this day.


Same here, Frazz. Been waiting a long time to hear "Guard" and "Cheesy" in the same sentence!

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Skinnattittar wrote:People want to play their Ogryns because they are fun models, fun fluff, fun to play, and have been in the Imperial rosters since at least 2nd Edition (I don't recall if they were in Rogue Trader), but haven't been useful in over ten years! So people were hoping that with the upgrade in toughness they would be useful again. Sadly, their points costing and nerf to their other important stats makes them entirely unusable, even in Apocalypse they are a bad investment!

Ogryns were around for RT, yes. They even had something like 15-16 metal model variants, as opposed to 4 today.

There are still a couple of situations where I would take Ogryns. The first being if I was looking to lose horribly. The second would be against Daemons, just for the off chance they might get to charge a bloodthirster and potentially make their points back (5 ogryns vs a thirster have probability on their side, but only just).

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Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Missed a lot here, I will be updating this post to address tactical issues.

Skinnattittar wrote:@ Wrexasaur : I don't think you've played an IG army like mine yet if you think Ogryns can't get up to you and assault, not without you sacrificing yourself to my other tactics.

People want to play their Ogryns because they are fun models, fun fluff, fun to play, and have been in the Imperial rosters since at least 2nd Edition (I don't recall if they were in Rogue Trader), but haven't been useful in over ten years! So people were hoping that with the upgrade in toughness they would be useful again. Sadly, their points costing and nerf to their other important stats makes them entirely unusable, even in Apocalypse they are a bad investment!

The new Imperial Guard are definitely not overpowered. If anything, they are just as viable as they were before, but more flexible. Their weaknesses are even greater now than they were before (no more command bubbles and Iron Discipline) and their strengths have received a bump on the nose ("Heavy Weapon Teams," more like "chew my ass and spit it out team") to make them way more vulnerable.

What is probably throwing most players off is that they are a drastically different beast now. No longer have the same lists of the past fifteen years been the most beneficial list for the Imperial Guard. Now there is variety! The new vehicles and units are wonderful alternatives to the stale bread we Guardsmen had for over a decade, and that suprises people. They see the gunlines and the tanks and feel like they know this monster. But then the Valkyries swoop in from reserve and deepstrike, Sentinels bound in from the flanks, and their MEQs are being gunned down by hellguns. It is all a bit disorientating to see the Guard actually rise up from its haunches and march across the battlefield.


In summary drastically different beasts with INSANE firepower AND superior mobility provided by the vendetta/ valks (valks...why take them???), so in short sure but I see no reason in this post as to why they can't drop whole armies with good rolls on turn one. WH40k a competitive game... poppy-cock.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Caffran9 wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?


Against mechvet... kill the Chimeras early and the list can collapse easily.

People get too caught up in the whole "OMGWTFSCARYPLASMADEATHTANKROFLBBQ!!!!!" and try to bring down the Russes and stuff first, which are quite difficult to really kill from range. The mobility provided by the Chimeras is crucial, and removing that advantage exposes the really weak guardsmen who were hiding within them and lets you clip their scoring units out from under them. Killing the Chimeras early also removes the vast majority of the counter punch of the army as you close in on its lines.

And no, IG are not overpowered. People still try to play against them like they're playing against the old codex and that is an absolutely terrible idea. Once people adjust the way they're building their armies and playing against new IG, they won't be as brutal as they are now.


Prove to me (on a table, P.M. me for a game, we can do it no worries as to location) that you can actually beat a IG force (like a serious one, no jokes, I am ripping the jewels out of the family case) with something besides a non-IG one P.M. me and we can have a few games, I can just sit their and roll well, while you try your highly developed tactics and forum "enouraged" army lists... and I still win 7/10 times, it is just ridiculous. BURN GW AT THE STAKE.... oops... sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote:
Polonius wrote:Mech IG is the best Mechanize army available. They trump Marines, Chaos, and Eldar. Tau players talk up their power a lot, but I think the Tau builds that succeed against IG are pretty heavily slanted towards beating one army.

In a MEQ heavy environment, IG can and will run amok with impunity. Arguably, the new IG book is the final blow against the idea that Marines are truly top tier. Any list that can reliably take apart MeQs is always going to be seen as OP by casual and most tournament gamers.


So, by everyone then?

(Aside from IG players though, I guess?)


Perhaps I don't speak perfect english... and this would be no surprise to me, Dr. seuss and all but I do not understand this at all. The MOD that is. Remember that dyslexia is a real thing and I may have it, though I am not sure that I do. I will take a look at this later.

Okay, I surmise that it means IG vs. IG is a dumb arguments, and an internet I have won!!! WHEEEEEEE!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
willydstyle wrote:
Danny Internets wrote:
Dashofpepper wrote:What *IS* the weakness of a mechanized IG force?


Kill points.


I like how you actually make sense when you post


Here we go, I understand english again, and this makes sense. Their weakness IS KP. 2/3 of the games involve KP heavily, and this works out YET AGAIN in the IG's favor... perhaps a book will come out to explain it??? Yeah, and I will read it if it's good... seriously though.

OK then... I think I get where this is going. So, anyway, I have mathhammered the IG and they OWN (with an echo or two or three) pretty much any hardcore list with compitent players... I have seen no serious points PROVING anything one way or the other. So experience will tell, and prevailas always because the most of the cats that get the uber-force will be cracked open like macadamias (CHOCALATE COVErEd!!!) AND OWNED by cats like me who take specifically anti-IG armies to reinforce the FUN FUN FUN FUN... oops sorry aspect of the game. Simple or bla bla bla this is why I play, whether in a tourney or not, dice just scream WAAAAAAAYYYYY too loudly to be outshot every game.

IG are not unbreababe... Thank GW.... YOU SUCK. With professional apoogies and etc... make a better game, and we will ALL like your minis AND your game. At this point GW has the potential to own the world with compassion and, etc... w/o many questions asked.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2009/06/28 09:39:34



 
   
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IF you go out and buy all the good stuff four or five times over (valks, chimeras, LRBTs, etc)... then yes, IG now have a verifiable power build which is angling to dislodge the top tier one lists. If you build a balanced force... then no. They are just as good as any other balanced force.

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O H I am in the Webway...

If your decent or better and have the right list? Yes.

People make sucky lists out of the nice new guard codex, but the ones that don't end up steamrolling.

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