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I would like this thread to be limited to talking about war-gaming miniatures specifically.

Why do GW products cost so much? (information on the actual factual numbers would be fantastic)

Are other companies similar products cheaper?

Does relative value mean as much as true value?

Does relative value have a real place when considering these costs?

If relative value is a real factor how can you prove this?

K , i'll give it a try to answer them ( from middle ground , no favorisms )

Why do GW products cost so much? (information on the actual factual numbers would be fantastic)

a) Supposedly we are also paying for a game / some sort of guarantee the game wont die out / easier to find gaming group
b) because they can ( some say its bad business practice , but the buyers let them get away )

Are other companies similar products cheaper?

Yes and no. Over all its the same ( plastic kits from GW is the only thing thats tipping the balance )
Comparing metal blister by blister , plastic box by plastic box , GW falls far behind in price vs value

Does relative value mean as much as true value?

No , this is such a interesting phenomenon GW and the customers , its almost symbiotic.
GW is constantly sucking in new players with nice starter sets , then poof comes the price hike for everything else .
the customers either give up on the game right there , or continue to put up with it ( not willingly might add )
Then this incredible symbiotic interaction begins . Because GW customers "invested" so much already in their army,
they are willing to put up with almost any BS GW comes up with , they are also willing to drive out other competitive companies
in order to make sure their GW gamming environment and their existing armies isnt threaten. ( they dont want the trouble to have to
rebuy a new product when the gaming group switches interest for example )

Does relative value have a real place when considering these costs?

Some people are able to see past the silly addiction and just quit the game , so yes . But 90% probably not.

If relative value is a real factor how can you prove this?

Game veterans that quits . even fans can only tolerate insane prices to a certain threshold point . ( of course it varies for everyone )

Nice summary Luna.

One thing that I find particularly odd is how GW fails to connect the kits to the actual game. Sure you can field that super specialized unit with every alteration possible, but you have to buy MORE stuff to be able to do so. I sense a massive catch 22 here, resulting in a relative value that actually tips into the negative for some players.

Is this situation true of other War-games, or does GW just have such a "complicated" (sometimes convoluted) rule set and codices that they automatically HAVE to sell their good in this way; yet again this is purely in GW's favor.

Wrexasaur wrote:Nice summary Luna.

One thing that I find particularly odd is how GW fails to connect the kits to the actual game. Sure you can field that super specialized unit with every alteration possible, but you have to buy MORE stuff to be able to do so. I sense a massive catch 22 here, resulting in a relative value that actually tips into the negative for some players.

Is this situation true of other War-games, or does GW just have such a "complicated" (sometimes convoluted) rule set and codices that they automatically HAVE to sell their good in this way; yet again this is purely in GW's favor.

Im sorry , i dont quite understand , could you list some example of actual products ? ( my brain is limited atm :x )

Here is a positive scenario.

I know a guy who just started Orks, a pretty expensive army to build overall. He had a set of Ork boyz, and somehow he used the bits and pieces to kit up around 6-7 kommandoz. He made back-packs out of the big shoota stuff along with some other bits he had.

Very complicated and I can't even remember how he did it, but it speaks of how hard GW tries to get you to just buy more stuff.

I play eldar, and have a resolute goal to only play eldar using GW products. Right now the only problem I personally have with the Eldar stuff, is the Lack of a universal tank. Sure there is a Falcon kit for a hundred dollars or so, but if my opponent wants to be a douche they are suddenly not Wave serpents and Fire prisms...

DREAM CRUSHED!!!

Ohh i see, like the burna / loota kit for example i guess?
have enough "bits" to make extras , yet not enough body to complete a legal squad?

This is purely speculation , but i think when ever a cheap alternative product comes out ( snap fit AOBR boys for example) it'll hurt the Ork Boy box set tremendously . Purposely giving lack of body to complete a squad of loota burna will encourage sales of Ork Boy Box again.

GW is very smart indeed , great way to get you to purchase additional kits without been called ripping people off because of (extra bits)

That's pretty much it.

As much as we all grumble about it, GW is a for profit company and they're far from alone. I basically think of GW pricing to be akin to that of a good Scotch in that it'll go for whatever the market will tolerate.

The flip side is that with GW profitable, we get new releases and the game hangs around, etc.

In terms of pricing, if we want it to go down, we just have to stop buying models.

Now, I'm almost finished my Orks, so let me tell you about the Witch Hunter Army I'm starting..............

Bitz-wise, back in the good old days, if you wanted a Heavy or Special Weapon, you needed to buy a single-pose metal model for each Heavy or Special Weapon that you wanted.

Grossly-simplified, the notion of extra weapon "bitz", didn't really exist until the multi-pose SM came out in 3E, when GW changed the sprue designs to include multiple CC, Heavy and Special weapons with each unit.

Having extra bitz is a good thing. And it used to be in 3E that you could just buy frames with extra SM bodies. A lot of people did this to bulk things out.

Then, GW got smart, and decided they wouldn't let players buy stuff a la carte like that.

I have to commend GW for having some of the smartest monkeys in hats with cigars for their marketing team. Short terms profit leaves the customer with a very simple decision, and for me this actually ends up being "I will simply not buy most of your products". I find this to be totally unfair and biased in terms of how I want to be a customer for ANY company. Yes or no questions are usually one sided and made to make you either look like an enemy or an ally. For a marketing team creating classes will generate more possibilities for manipulation of the market. GW constantly does this by trying to shut down it's competition, leaving us with GW and GW alone... yeah like they will actually be able to do that.

"Note"
Perhaps GW will be the one and only company () to distribute war-gaming products when the big brother series buys America. "Hmmmm.... I am sorry GW but we actually have multiple co-owners as of now, and our fascist set-up does not allow for actual monopolized branding. If you happen to have Bill gates style backing, we may be able to work something out; America is not free after all."

Just how is GW trying to crush competition? I've never heard of them doing anything to directly squash other companies, except those that infringe on their IP.

Also, I saw a blurb about prices. If you do a comparison of rank and file models, GW is either cheaper or comparable to models of similar quality. Where they get expensive are character models, though the move to plastics is making them cheaper. I have bought something like 20 commander boxes, because I wanted the bitz on them, and I know I will eventually use all the parts.

At the end of the day, this is a hobby, like golf, skydiving, scuba diving etc. Is it expensive...yes. Does GW owe you lower prices. Nope.

( though I will point out most of the great entrepeneurs were successful because they found ways to sell decent goods at lower prices then their competitors).

You can find some good deals with specific GW items, but most stuff is pretty expensive. This could be a universal thing among hobby companies.

Wait... scuba diving??? REALLY?

I need to think about that for a second, because for the life of me I cannot think of a single way to rationally compare these two things. They are both hobbies sure, but how does that mean anything at all to me? It is an entirely different market with entirely different products.

Anyway, you get the point.

BTW... This is specifically about JUST GW products and their competitors, and you seem to have partially missed that. No worries man.

Wrexasaur wrote:Nice summary Luna.

One thing that I find particularly odd is how GW fails to connect the kits to the actual game. Sure you can field that super specialized unit with every alteration possible, but you have to buy MORE stuff to be able to do so. I sense a massive catch 22 here, resulting in a relative value that actually tips into the negative for some players.

Is this situation true of other War-games, or does GW just have such a "complicated" (sometimes convoluted) rule set and codices that they automatically HAVE to sell their good in this way; yet again this is purely in GW's favor.

Few other games allow the amount of unit customisation that GW does. Most of them allow the unit to have what the released model has and that's it.

Yes, if you want a unit configured differently to the "standard" that's in the box then you need to do a little work and possibly buy some extra models. Or you could be lazy and just put what's in the box.

The ruleset allows lots of options. Some of these options are present in the box sets, some require a bit of work. I don't see what the problem is here. Would it be better to have a box sets with no options and no options allowed in the rules?

The options seem very poorly linked to what you actually get in some of the kits. This could be simple oversight by GW, but looking at how they maintain their website I have a hard time thinking they care very much.

I have heard a lot of great things about GW customer service, mainly their return/exchange policy. I don't know whether this is a standard thing for plastic models throughout the modeling companies.

General Hobbs wrote:
Just how is GW trying to crush competition? I've never heard of them doing anything to directly squash other companies, except those that infringe on their IP.

Also, I saw a blurb about prices. If you do a comparison of rank and file models, GW is either cheaper or comparable to models of similar quality. Where they get expensive are character models, though the move to plastics is making them cheaper. I have bought something like 20 commander boxes, because I wanted the bitz on them, and I know I will eventually use all the parts.

At the end of the day, this is a hobby, like golf, skydiving, scuba diving etc. Is it expensive...yes. Does GW owe you lower prices. Nope.

( though I will point out most of the great entrepeneurs were successful because they found ways to sell decent goods at lower prices then their competitors).

I think you will find that GW's 28mm plastic aren't the value they like you to think they are. Companies like Victrix, Perry Twins & Warlord games are doing sets that work out cheaper per model. From what a friend was saying you get more and it costs less. As to bits, oh what a joy, tons of plastic I never used and probably not used by most gamers.

General Hobbs wrote:
Just how is GW trying to crush competition? I've never heard of them doing anything to directly squash other companies, except those that infringe on their IP.

...
...

I think only in the sense that they have a huge presence and their party line is that GW IS the wargaming hobby.

This only works with young and naive users, as it's so easy to get information about the wider world of wargaming once you start to broaden your horizons.

Wrexasaur wrote:The options seem very poorly linked to what you actually get in some of the kits. This could be simple oversight by GW, but looking at how they maintain their website I have a hard time thinking they care very much.

Do you have an example of this?

Looking at the marine stuff, most of the items that don't have the right options are the result of rules changes.

The dreadnaught has what was the two best weapons in 3rd ed. but now these are not especially desirable.

Wrexasaur wrote:Wait... scuba diving??? REALLY?

I need to think about that for a second, because for the life of me I cannot think of a single way to rationally compare these two things. They are both hobbies sure, but how does that mean anything at all to me? It is an entirely different market with entirely different products.

I think the point is that unlike Warhammer, scuba diving clubs will not throw you out and prevent you from diving if you don't have a certain brand of equipment. Plus the legislation about your equipment does not go out of date every few years, requiring you to buy a whole new set just to be able to dive.

And unlike in Warhammer, there is more than one manufacturer of dive equipment, meaning that you can buy essentially the same piece of gear at a range of prices, and if you can't afford the "best" type of, say, air tank, you can buy a slightly cheaper type of tank and still be able go and look at the fish.

Edit: Although I guess you can argue that GW and FW are two different manufacturers, but that is like looking at the price and going "holy cow", and looking at the price and having a heart attack.

Wrexasaur wrote:Here is a positive scenario.

I know a guy who just started Orks, a pretty expensive army to build overall. He had a set of Ork boyz, and somehow he used the bits and pieces to kit up around 6-7 kommandoz. He made back-packs out of the big shoota stuff along with some other bits he had.

Very complicated and I can't even remember how he did it, but it speaks of how hard GW tries to get you to just buy more stuff.

I play eldar, and have a resolute goal to only play eldar using GW products. Right now the only problem I personally have with the Eldar stuff, is the Lack of a universal tank. Sure there is a Falcon kit for a hundred dollars or so, but if my opponent wants to be a douche they are suddenly not Wave serpents and Fire prisms...

DREAM CRUSHED!!!

Just make sure you have the correct stuff (turrets and prisms etc) and your douche opponent can't do anything but pound sand..

SilverMK2 wrote:And unlike in Warhammer, there is more than one manufacturer of dive equipment,

Kilkrazy wrote:This only works with young and naive users, as it's so easy to get information about the wider world of wargaming once you start to broaden your horizons.

How pretty much every for profit organisation in the world ever barring ones which didn't get it and soon went under go about setting prices.

First of all, you need to examine the cost of your base materials, and how much base material you will need to produce each unit. Add to this the cost of design, manufacture (cost of machines, manpower, electrics, insurance etc), packaging and distribution.

If you are selling it yourself, you need also to factor in the cost of doing so. Be it a mere online presence or Bricks and Mortar stores, you still need additional staff, rent, more insurance etc.

You then project how many of each item you are likely to sell. Take this figure, and divide the costs incurred thus far to show you how much each one *needs* to sell for just to break even. Then decide how much of a profit margin you wish to add.

GW have far, far higher overheads than any of their competition. Rumour has it that Hasbro looked into purchasing GW at one point, and shat itself when it saw the overall profit margin.

Markup and Profit Margins are two entirely seperate things.

So again, I ask the question nobody has ever answered before. Seeing as, model for model, GW have prices largely comparable to other companies like PP and Rackham, whats PP and Rackhams excuse? Lower overheads, one would imagine, means lower prices. Or perhaps it's not GW who are the greedy bastards gouging their players unnecessarily?

Bookwrack wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:And unlike in Warhammer, there is more than one manufacturer of dive equipment,

Kilkrazy wrote:This only works with young and naive users, as it's so easy to get information about the wider world of wargaming once you start to broaden your horizons.

Note the use of the word "Warhammer". If you want to play Warhammer (in stores and in a large number of tournaments etc) you need to be using GW products, you can't use stand ins or even heavily converted models with bits from other ranges or scratch built parts (depending on how much of a pain they want to be).

I am well aware that there are other games out there you can play instead of Warhammer, however, if you actually want to play Warhammer, you have to go to GW for pretty much everything.

In relationship to diving, if you wanted to dive in a GW diving area, you would have to use GW fins, mask, BCD, tank, etc, rather than equipment made by anyone else, even if it is better than that made by GW.

Something like D&D, another hugely popular game, you can use pretty much anything as a board, playing pieces etc as far as I am aware.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

So again, I ask the question nobody has ever answered before. Seeing as, model for model, GW have prices largely comparable to other companies like PP and Rackham, whats PP and Rackhams excuse? Lower overheads, one would imagine, means lower prices. Or perhaps it's not GW who are the greedy bastards gouging their players unnecessarily?

Rackham and PP have to spread the costs of development (sculpting, packaging design, rules books...etc) over a smaller base of players. So while "overhead... or fixed costs may be smaller the economy of scale of production costs considerably more since their are less buyers. ie. a $15K set up fee for a print run of 10,000 Warmarchine rule books is going to cost $1.50 per unit. If GW has the same "set up" fee but can spread the fee over 50,000 rule books or .30 cents a unit.

I believe relative to the market GW is a good value. I believe this b/c I can still play minis from 20 years ago. The game has evolved but I can still use my purchases (codexes and rules aside) to play this game. After entry and build, the maintenance cost over time of 1 army is relatively small, even if you want to purchase all the new stuff (which is not required).

I believe that you can have a good time at 750 pts on up. This means that for an army box, codex and rule book you can have a good time for under $200 including supplies to assemble and paint your army.

Now I know you want to keep this industry specific but I've always looked at the hobby end as well for "value". So if I can buy a box 10 minis for $25 dollars and spend 20 hours painting, that is a little over $1.25 an hour + paint for my entertainment. To go to 20 hours of movies it would cost me about $80.00 or about $4/hour. This doesn't even begin to take into account the gaming time I can spend with the figures.

Note the use of the word "Warhammer". If you want to play Warhammer (in stores and in a large number of tournaments etc) you need to be using GW products, you can't use stand ins or even heavily converted models with bits from other ranges or scratch built parts (depending on how much of a pain they want to be).

I see no problem with this in the various GW stores or GW organised tournies - If you're in a FLGS that sells other systems they'll happily let you play those instead. If GW own/run the facilities it's thier choice whats played and by what rules.

I mean my local pub only lets you drink beer purchased at the bar on their premises - You can't expect them to let you walk in and drink half a dozen cans bought from the off-license across the street!

SilverMK2 wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:And unlike in Warhammer, there is more than one manufacturer of dive equipment,

Kilkrazy wrote:This only works with young and naive users, as it's so easy to get information about the wider world of wargaming once you start to broaden your horizons.

Note the use of the word "Warhammer". If you want to play Warhammer (in stores and in a large number of tournaments etc) you need to be using GW products, you can't use stand ins or even heavily converted models with bits from other ranges or scratch built parts (depending on how much of a pain they want to be).

A couple of points here, if I may.

1) I'd very much like to see the statistical breakdown of tournaments enforcing GW's draconian model purity requirements
2) Tournaments and playing in stores are the tip, mark you, the very tip of the Warhammer iceberg.

OldPeculiar wrote:I see no problem with this in the various GW stores or GW organised tournies - If you're in a FLGS that sells other systems they'll happily let you play those instead. If GW own/run the facilities it's thier choice whats played and by what rules.

I mean my local pub only lets you drink beer purchased at the bar on their premises - You can't expect them to let you walk in and drink half a dozen cans bought from the off-license across the street!

I was only carrying on the analogy to diving, where you would not expect a dive organiser to turn you away because you have not purchased everything from them. I have a non GW daemon prince (with GW parts on) that I can't play at my local GW, yet I have vast numbers of GW models that I hesitate to count the cost of.

I could understand if you turned up with an entire army made up from other gaming ranges, but for individual models it seems rather petty (especially if they are decked out in GW parts).

One almost expects them to refuse to let me play my CSM army because I have not based them using GW basing materials. And god forbid if you don't use Citidel paints - a hanging at dawn offence if GW had its way, I'm sure

Agamemnon2 wrote:A couple of points here, if I may.

1) I'd very much like to see the statistical breakdown of tournaments enforcing GW's draconian model purity requirements
2) Tournaments and playing in stores are the tip, mark you, the very tip of the Warhammer iceberg.

I didn't really mean to come in here and cause a fuss; I was just hoping to perhaps clear up the original point about comparing Warhammer to other pass times. I'm aware that there is a massive area of play outside of GW stores and tournaments. I was simply continuing the analogy as a point on it's own, rather than in the face of the wider world.

I have to say blah blah golf blah J-class yachting blah paintball, OT, etc.

I mean, like jgemrich says, its the overall value of the total hobby which is important and we are supposed to be comparing like with like.

Since I don't play Warmachine, I compare GW stuff with historical and SF figures from other companies, and with Tamiya kits.

The recent leap in the price of Tamiya makes GW seems less excessively pricey than it used to, though as the £ has strengthened against the Yen we can expect the price of Tamiya to drift downwards over time.


Alternative infantry figure prices

Perry Brothers
£1 per figure

Copplestone Metals
£1.60 per figure

Wargames Foundry Metals
£1.80 per figure

Perry Brothers Plastics
38p per figure

Wargames Factory Plastic
$1.60 per figure

.....I have a non GW daemon prince (with GW parts on) that I can't play at my local GW, yet I have vast numbers of GW models that I hesitate to count the cost of.

That does sound a bit harsh, however it not a universal interpretation of GW's model use policy - I find it varies from store to store, red-shirt to red-shirt etc etc. I don't see it as a big black mark for them though - GWs stores, GWs rules. Mostly though it's a case of building a relationship with the people who run the store - if you're regularly buying stuff and build a good rapore with the manager then you get cut more slack.

In any case I think we are diverging from the main thrust of the thread.... Personally speaking I find model for model most of GW's range reasonable value compared to other products - however army for army they are more expensive as individual GW armies contain significantly more - and often larger - models than competing games systems.

I didn't really mean to come in here and cause a fuss;

Why the hell not! This is the Internet Dammit!!!!

OldPeculiar wrote:Why the hell not! This is the Internet Dammit!!!!

Why can't we all just get along?!?

*converts all his models to be carrying flowers instead of guns and sets out to spread the word to gaming tables all over the world*

As to GW value, I have no real idea. I don't buy any other wargames or models. The only thing I can compare it with is the cost of hero clix (bought to represent characters and monsters in my D&D group). I've seen them for about £1.99 for 4-5 figures, which is not bad seeing as you get so many fugures and they are already coloured in, but their level of detail often leaves something to be desired, and you can't pose them etc.

Purely on price, they are far better value/model. On quality of design, they are less so. On ease of use, they are quite good value, all you need to do is buy them and you can start playing, while with GW mini's you need to cut them, clean them up, glue them, often fill in gaps with GS/equiv and then paint and base them, which all adds to the expense (although many people find this as or more enjoyable than the actual game).

So who knows really? If you are prepared to pay for it, that is great, if not, you can't really play unless you find another source of models, such as ebay or retailers who offer discounts etc...

jgemrich wrote:Rackham and PP have to spread the costs of development (sculpting, packaging design, rules books...etc) over a smaller base of players. So while "overhead... or fixed costs may be smaller the economy of scale of production costs considerably more since their are less buyers. ie. a $15K set up fee for a print run of 10,000 Warmarchine rule books is going to cost $1.50 per unit. If GW has the same "set up" fee but can spread the fee over 50,000 rule books or .30 cents a unit.

GW however has higher overhead costs due to being international. For whatever reason, they also do German, Spanish, French, and Japanese translations. Plus, they have their own international distribution and footprint.

I'm pretty sure that PP doesn't have those costs.

And Rackham only does English & French.

Anybody know the cost of the new AT43 army boxes? They will be a good comparision.