Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Lothar wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
FW is always gamey. Or do you find it usual to see people using FW models with bad rules? No. Most of the players use FW only for over-powered rules they make. Of course most of their models are not over powered...but you almost always see those which are...

That depends. I used an army that was 1700 points of forge world and 300 points of GW and I went 4-4. I saw someone using 8 Decimator engines because he thought they were cool, and I don't think he did very well. I also saw at least two DKOK armies which were 100% forge world, and they didn't do well. I saw Fire Raptors, Avengers, and Vultures as the flyers. I saw Mars Alpha Pattern Leman Russ tanks. I saw at least three Death Rider hordes (I suppose I should include those as DKOK, so 5 DKOK armies).

All of this was at 1 weekend GT. I saw fewer Elysians and Searchlights than I expected - i.e. zero, though I hear there were some.

Yeah, of course there are some players, who use models, because they like them. However, they are quite rare. Almost in every case I have heart about FW model, was because of strong rules it has (better than gw). Lemans from FW are much better than GW. Elysians are more effective than scions (and we know how good scions are), vulture or avenger or vendetta are better than valkyrie. Searchlights are very good, commander vehicles also (those two are the only units which give + BS), Cyclops are OP, artillery platforms are also better than GW artillery, tauros venators are great, tarantula turrets also. And that is only imperial guard. You can find a lot of units for other factions (space marines, chaos), that are insanely good for its cost.

This is where you need to separate what you see most often and what the reality very likely is. The poster above talked about 5 DKoK armies that probably account for a very large portion of the FW models at the NovaOpen if they were full DKoK armies but are also very subpar. The majority of the FW out there is because people like the models, the people chasing the current overpowered meta are in the minority but you see them more often because you read about the winner of the NovaOpen using Elysians but not the multiple DkoK armies that were used.

I have an entire DKoK army that I usually just play as a normal IG army but it's like 90% FW and I have things like a Hades breaching drill and the trench rails on my Russes because they look cool, not because they're good. And I promise you that players like myself are in the significant majority.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 Lothar wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
FW is always gamey. Or do you find it usual to see people using FW models with bad rules? No. Most of the players use FW only for over-powered rules they make. Of course most of their models are not over powered...but you almost always see those which are...

That depends. I used an army that was 1700 points of forge world and 300 points of GW and I went 4-4. I saw someone using 8 Decimator engines because he thought they were cool, and I don't think he did very well. I also saw at least two DKOK armies which were 100% forge world, and they didn't do well. I saw Fire Raptors, Avengers, and Vultures as the flyers. I saw Mars Alpha Pattern Leman Russ tanks. I saw at least three Death Rider hordes (I suppose I should include those as DKOK, so 5 DKOK armies).

All of this was at 1 weekend GT. I saw fewer Elysians and Searchlights than I expected - i.e. zero, though I hear there were some.

Yeah, of course there are some players, who use models, because they like them. However, they are quite rare. Almost in every case I have heart about FW model, was because of strong rules it has (better than gw). Lemans from FW are much better than GW. Elysians are more effective than scions (and we know how good scions are), vulture or avenger or vendetta are better than valkyrie. Searchlights are very good, commander vehicles also (those two are the only units which give + BS), Cyclops are OP, artillery platforms are also better than GW artillery, tauros venators are great, tarantula turrets also. And that is only imperial guard. You can find a lot of units for other factions (space marines, chaos), that are insanely good for its cost.

This is where you need to separate what you see most often and what the reality very likely is. The poster above talked about 5 DKoK armies that probably account for a very large portion of the FW models at the NovaOpen if they were full DKoK armies but are also very subpar. The majority of the FW out there is because people like the models, the people chasing the current overpowered meta are in the minority but you see them more often because you read about the winner of the NovaOpen using Elysians but not the multiple DkoK armies that were used.

I have an entire DKoK army that I usually just play as a normal IG army but it's like 90% FW and I have things like a Hades breaching drill and the trench rails on my Russes because they look cool, not because they're good. And I promise you that players like myself are in the significant majority.

Fair enough. However, you cant promise me that . Around myself when someone used FW, its because its good. Its a pitty, because the models are really great!

RogueApiary wrote:

 CplPunishment wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Sabre Defense Platforms can take a searchlight that gives a friendly infantry unit +1 to hit, costs 20 points for the whole package.

Not as hilarious as it was when it briefly worked on anything with the AM keyword (hello, Baneblades), but still a solid niche in infantry lists.

It also makes plasma not explode on a one.

You always overheat on a 1. This was FAQ'd.

Where? I just read the main rules FAQ and couldn't find that. 1's always fail to hit is the only thing similar in the rulebook, except a +1 to hit modifier makes 1's into 2's and therefore no overheat. Just like MWBD makes Teslas proc extra hits on 5's and 6's from the +1 to hit.

After further investigation, it looks like you are right. That's just weird because being able to sidestep the overheat rule like that sounds broken. It doesn't seem right, but according to the designer's commentary, rerolls and modifiers are determined before determining whether or not a "1" has been rolled.

 CplPunishment wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

 CplPunishment wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Sabre Defense Platforms can take a searchlight that gives a friendly infantry unit +1 to hit, costs 20 points for the whole package.

Not as hilarious as it was when it briefly worked on anything with the AM keyword (hello, Baneblades), but still a solid niche in infantry lists.

It also makes plasma not explode on a one.

You always overheat on a 1. This was FAQ'd.

Where? I just read the main rules FAQ and couldn't find that. 1's always fail to hit is the only thing similar in the rulebook, except a +1 to hit modifier makes 1's into 2's and therefore no overheat. Just like MWBD makes Teslas proc extra hits on 5's and 6's from the +1 to hit.

After further investigation, it looks like you are right. That's just weird because being able to sidestep the overheat rule like that sounds broken. It doesn't seem right, but according to the designer's commentary, rerolls and modifiers are determined before determining whether or not a "1" has been rolled.

If night time can make a plasma gun overheat. . . it only stands to reason that turning on the light can make it not!

The whole rule is stupid though. It looks like unintended consequences that are just getting sillier over time. It should just be "you rolled a 1. You blow up. End of story."

 argonak wrote:

 CplPunishment wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:

 CplPunishment wrote:

stratigo wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Sabre Defense Platforms can take a searchlight that gives a friendly infantry unit +1 to hit, costs 20 points for the whole package.

Not as hilarious as it was when it briefly worked on anything with the AM keyword (hello, Baneblades), but still a solid niche in infantry lists.

It also makes plasma not explode on a one.

You always overheat on a 1. This was FAQ'd.

Where? I just read the main rules FAQ and couldn't find that. 1's always fail to hit is the only thing similar in the rulebook, except a +1 to hit modifier makes 1's into 2's and therefore no overheat. Just like MWBD makes Teslas proc extra hits on 5's and 6's from the +1 to hit.

After further investigation, it looks like you are right. That's just weird because being able to sidestep the overheat rule like that sounds broken. It doesn't seem right, but according to the designer's commentary, rerolls and modifiers are determined before determining whether or not a "1" has been rolled.

If night time can make a plasma gun overheat. . . it only stands to reason that turning on the light can make it not!

The whole rule is stupid though. It looks like unintended consequences that are just getting sillier over time. It should just be "you rolled a 1. You blow up. End of story."

In the case of "hard to hit" targets it sort of makes sense. The gunner is more likely to hold it on overcharge for a longer amount of time while he tries to get a good shot. Or maybe they're firing wildly at a higher rate than the cooling systems can handle--like spray 'n pray but with plasma. Having a hard time justifying an opposite effect. I guess the game mechanics don't absolutely need to make complete sense. It is a super-simplified abstraction of war. That being said, I personally agree that there shouldn't be a workaround for plasma overheating. Plasma is better in every way imaginable this edition. Taking away it's only weakness breaks the whole thing, and game balance is something that does need to be sensible.

 CplPunishment wrote:
In the case of "hard to hit" targets it sort of makes sense. The gunner is more likely to hold it on overcharge for a longer amount of time while he tries to get a good shot. Or maybe they're firing wildly at a higher rate than the cooling systems can handle--like spray 'n pray but with plasma. Having a hard time justifying an opposite effect. I guess the game mechanics don't absolutely need to make complete sense. It is a super-simplified abstraction of war. That being said, I personally agree that there shouldn't be a workaround for plasma overheating. Plasma is better in every way imaginable this edition. Taking away it's only weakness breaks the whole thing, and game balance is something that does need to be sensible.

Meh. That's just rationalizing the absurd. You can make up whatever fluff your imagination can come up with, and someone can have fluff that opposes it, but no one is right. its just a stupid rule.

All Troops have obsec in ITC tournament format, and all games have a maelstrom objectives. That makes conscripts even better, and it makes the topic of deep striking plasma more interesting.

Now the Elysian command/SWS v scion squad/command just got a lot more interesting.

Regular 59 point 2 plasma scion squads have obsec, and count as a troop towards building a battalion.

And we have a new player on the field, 57 point Elysian infantry squads with a single plasma and 10 deep striking obsec bodies instead of 5.

It's now an interesting choice between more dakka, obsec + medium dakka, or double obsec + low dakka.

I'm interested in elysian infantry squads - the possibility of a drop horde is pretty cool. You can get 100 guys with 10 plasma guns for just 570pts! They're pretty crazy strong...

 DoomMouse wrote:
I'm interested in elysian infantry squads - the possibility of a drop horde is pretty cool. You can get 100 guys with 10 plasma guns for just 570pts! They're pretty crazy strong...

Might as well give the sergeants Plasma Pistols while you're at it!

I've really enjoyed using elysians. A lot of fun! Though I've switched to scions for their special weapons. Still use an elysian command squad with plasma though!

 rhinoceraids wrote:
I've really enjoyed using elysians. A lot of fun! Though I've switched to scions for their special weapons. Still use an elysian command squad with plasma though!

What's the advantage elysian command squads bring to the table over scion command squads?

 necron99 wrote:
What's the advantage elysian command squads bring to the table over scion command squads?

They're cheaper. You give up hot-shots and the 4+ save, but in exchange they are 2ppm less expensive, not including the cost of weapons (so actually 3ppm cheaper than Tempestus Scions).

I've been wanting to play Elysian since 5th ed but 6th and 7th put me off them so I went with generic guard. I'm planning on starting them now

Other than conscript screens, what's does one do against a strong and fast cc army when you're running a tac list?

 argonak wrote:
Other than conscript screens, what's does one do against a strong and fast cc army when you're running a tac list?

Infantry squad screens

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Other than conscript screens, what's does one do against a strong and fast cc army when you're running a tac list?

Infantry squad screens

Hide a cyclops about behind the infantry squad screen and just wait for them to come to you.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Other than conscript screens, what's does one do against a strong and fast cc army when you're running a tac list?

Infantry squad screens

Hide a cyclops about behind the infantry squad screen and just wait for them to come to you.

Field an Elysian Detachment / Valkyrie Squads / Scions, drop half your army behind them, and crush them from 2 sides.

Also: Field Veteran Flamer squads with 3 Flamers and a Heavy Flamer and watch the Enemy dissolve in overwatch. Thats pretty fun too.

Edit: Also: Vultures! Stupendously cheap, not targettable in cc by most units, 43 rounds of anti-everything dakka.

 Lothar wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
FW is always gamey. Or do you find it usual to see people using FW models with bad rules? No. Most of the players use FW only for over-powered rules they make. Of course most of their models are not over powered...but you almost always see those which are...

That depends. I used an army that was 1700 points of forge world and 300 points of GW and I went 4-4. I saw someone using 8 Decimator engines because he thought they were cool, and I don't think he did very well. I also saw at least two DKOK armies which were 100% forge world, and they didn't do well. I saw Fire Raptors, Avengers, and Vultures as the flyers. I saw Mars Alpha Pattern Leman Russ tanks. I saw at least three Death Rider hordes (I suppose I should include those as DKOK, so 5 DKOK armies).

All of this was at 1 weekend GT. I saw fewer Elysians and Searchlights than I expected - i.e. zero, though I hear there were some.

Yeah, of course there are some players, who use models, because they like them. However, they are quite rare. Almost in every case I have heart about FW model, was because of strong rules it has (better than gw). Lemans from FW are much better than GW. Elysians are more effective than scions (and we know how good scions are), vulture or avenger or vendetta are better than valkyrie. Searchlights are very good, commander vehicles also (those two are the only units which give + BS), Cyclops are OP, artillery platforms are also better than GW artillery, tauros venators are great, tarantula turrets also. And that is only imperial guard. You can find a lot of units for other factions (space marines, chaos), that are insanely good for its cost.

Mostly true but FW Artillery besides Earthshaker Platforms are trash. Sadly. And comparing the Vulture and Vendetta to the Valkyrie isn't a very solid comparison. Especially because the Valkyrie is utter trash besides being a basic transport!

 argonak wrote:
Other than conscript screens, what's does one do against a strong and fast cc army when you're running a tac list?

Bullgryn screen, or as somebody said hide a cyclops or two out of LoS.

They are an auto include for me now. I bring a squad of 2. Always MVPs

I hit close combat armies on the nose. If they move towards me I send a couple of Chimeras loaded with infantry rumbling out towards them and meet them in the midfield. Unless the enemy can fly they have to fight their way through my screen, and that gives me more turns to shoot them with my tanks and artillery. Then if they bust through the first screen I send my second screen to meet them at the edge of my deployment zone. If they bust through the second screen I hope I roll a lot of sixes with my Basilisks (which is generally a good plan regardless).

I recently got a decent sized IG army for pretty cheap which has several mortar teams.
Looking at the index, 27 points for 3d6 long range strength 4 shots that ignore line of sight? They sound amazing!
Have people had success using a lot of them?

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
I recently got a decent sized IG army for pretty cheap which has several mortar teams.
Looking at the index, 27 points for 3d6 long range strength 4 shots that ignore line of sight? They sound amazing!
Have people had success using a lot of them?

Yes, they're kind of stupidly cheap, I would imagine we'll see that changed a little come the real codex, but for now they're absolutely worth it, at least in moderation.

If anything, they're great for denying areas in your backfield for enemy deepstrikers. For a guard army that's a big deal, we're one of the only armies in the game that can reliably shut down deepstrike for the first turn or two.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
I recently got a decent sized IG army for pretty cheap which has several mortar teams.
Looking at the index, 27 points for 3d6 long range strength 4 shots that ignore line of sight? They sound amazing!
Have people had success using a lot of them?

They're great back line deep strike deniers. 3 squads of them can take up a huge chunk of your deployment zone.

Just because you can put them outside LOS, doesn't mean you have to! They also make good extra wounds for lascannon HWTs.

Seriously. Cyclops people. They are so friggen amazing for the points. And such cute death machines.

"I never learned how to lovvvveee...beep boop....EXPLODE"

Yeah gotta back up the Cyclops love, they work fairly well and are generally hilarious when the little toy tank drives up to wipe a squad out.

 rhinoceraids wrote:
Seriously. Cyclops people. They are so friggen amazing for the points. And such cute death machines.

"I never learned how to lovvvveee...beep boop....EXPLODE"

Cyclops?

Cyclops demo vehicle

everything 1D6 away suffers 2D6 auto hits. S9, -2 D3 dmg

Yeah had a squad of Ogryn charge one, fail to kill it, it exploded and killed all 6 of them. I likely thought it was funnier than my opponent but we both got a quick laugh out of the thought of the Ogryns beating up the little toy tank only for it to explode and kill them all later.

 vipoid wrote:

 rhinoceraids wrote:
Seriously. Cyclops people. They are so friggen amazing for the points. And such cute death machines.

"I never learned how to lovvvveee...beep boop....EXPLODE"

Cyclops?

Its a forge world unit. I know everyone on dakkadakka acts like forgeworld is totally cool and legal, but I really wonder what people would say if I showed up with some of these things at a gameshop.

 argonak wrote:

Its a forge world unit. I know everyone on dakkadakka acts like forgeworld is totally cool and legal, but I really wonder what people would say if I showed up with some of these things at a gameshop.

The general reaction I've always had was "uh, oh, okay," followed by me saying, "no seriously, here's the book. look at it," and then they give it an indignant glance and are like, "yeah, seriously. okay dude. okay.".
Two turns later, I usually notice they're still not complaining when the majority of it has been removed from the table..