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I just wish my precious Griffon wasn't in the Forge world book. I know, I know...

 argonak wrote:
Its a forge world unit. I know everyone on dakkadakka acts like forgeworld is totally cool and legal, but I really wonder what people would say if I showed up with some of these things at a gameshop.

Depends from shop to shop and player to player.

And that goes for models and builds that are 100% FW free too. Some people still get bent if you play special characters. Others if you use LoW's. Others if you spam. Yet more if your "theme" doesn't match their vision of the army and setting.

Its just easy to point a finger at FW since its rules and models are on a separate web store.

Everybody wants to play "their" warhammer.

I had somebody upset because I had 5 deep strikes......"Seriously? You get to see my whole army deploy"

(Thatsssss kind of the idea)

 rhinoceraids wrote:
Everybody wants to play "their" warhammer.

I had somebody upset because I had 5 deep strikes......"Seriously? You get to see my whole army deploy"

(Thatsssss kind of the idea)

Guard MSU and deep strike only seems OP when people go with the tournament style +1 to 1st Turn instead of 1st to deploy automatically goes 1st.

 argonak wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 rhinoceraids wrote:
Seriously. Cyclops people. They are so friggen amazing for the points. And such cute death machines.

"I never learned how to lovvvveee...beep boop....EXPLODE"

Cyclops?

Its a forge world unit. I know everyone on dakkadakka acts like forgeworld is totally cool and legal, but I really wonder what people would say if I showed up with some of these things at a gameshop.

How is it any different than me playing a Necron player (which I have not done since 5th ed) and not knowing half of the units they put out on the board, nor what they are capable of. I (and most other people) treat it as a learning experience and ask what the different units and models are and what they do.

 vonjankmon wrote:

 argonak wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 rhinoceraids wrote:
Seriously. Cyclops people. They are so friggen amazing for the points. And such cute death machines.

"I never learned how to lovvvveee...beep boop....EXPLODE"

Cyclops?

Its a forge world unit. I know everyone on dakkadakka acts like forgeworld is totally cool and legal, but I really wonder what people would say if I showed up with some of these things at a gameshop.

How is it any different than me playing a Necron player (which I have not done since 5th ed) and not knowing half of the units they put out on the board, nor what they are capable of. I (and most other people) treat it as a learning experience and ask what the different units and models are and what they do.

Its different because of perception. Forge world isn't sold in a GW, so it isn't going to be commonly seen. Perhaps its leftover attitude from past editions, but I have a hard time expecting people to see someone lay down forgeworld specific units and not raise an eyebrow or be like "dude we're playing 40k, not whatever that custom unit stuff is."

 argonak wrote:

Its different because of perception. Forge world isn't sold in a GW, so it isn't going to be commonly seen. Perhaps its leftover attitude from past editions, but I have a hard time expecting people to see someone lay down forgeworld specific units and not raise an eyebrow or be like "dude we're playing 40k, not whatever that custom unit stuff is."

Were that this only the case around here. Roughly 70% of the standard model line, as far as I can tell, isn't sold in most FLGS (at least around here), supposedly because GW won't let them sell it. Supposedly the Basilisk mine was selling last time I picked one up was something they were selling at cost that they'd bought direct just so that they could offer something that they used to have if anyone came in looking for it.

I obviously have zero way of being able to prove that, but I've only seen a basilisk in one of about four stores around and it was in the whitebox, not a standard retail, so I dunno. Might be some truth to it. I'm not hip enough on the latest wheelings and dealings to know for sure.

So, if that's the case, what's this degree of perception for anyone who's options are, as sold in the stores: "the entire line of space marines models" or "a troop choice and maybe 20% of the rest of the army"? I mean, sure, ordering direct is always an option, but if it is for GW, then it is for FW. There's not even the excuse of payment issues anymore. I paid for my last FW order paypal, of all the things! Man, where was that 10 years ago.

Or, more simply, to add to your narrative:

"Dude, we're playing 40k, not whatever that custom unit stuff is."
"It's... a hellhound. From my codex."
"Woah, oooookaaaay, Mr. 'I use my ENTIRE codex'."

 daedalus wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Its different because of perception. Forge world isn't sold in a GW, so it isn't going to be commonly seen. Perhaps its leftover attitude from past editions, but I have a hard time expecting people to see someone lay down forgeworld specific units and not raise an eyebrow or be like "dude we're playing 40k, not whatever that custom unit stuff is."

Were that this only the case around here. Roughly 70% of the standard model line, as far as I can tell, isn't sold in most FLGS (at least around here), supposedly because GW won't let them sell it. Supposedly the Basilisk mine was selling last time I picked one up was something they were selling at cost that they'd bought direct just so that they could offer something that they used to have if anyone came in looking for it.

I obviously have zero way of being able to prove that, but I've only seen a basilisk in one of about four stores around and it was in the whitebox, not a standard retail, so I dunno. Might be some truth to it. I'm not hip enough on the latest wheelings and dealings to know for sure.

So, if that's the case, what's this degree of perception for anyone who's options are, as sold in the stores: "the entire line of space marines models" or "a troop choice and maybe 20% of the rest of the army"? I mean, sure, ordering direct is always an option, but if it is for GW, then it is for FW. There's not even the excuse of payment issues anymore. I paid for my last FW order paypal, of all the things! Man, where was that 10 years ago.

Or, more simply, to add to your narrative:

"Dude, we're playing 40k, not whatever that custom unit stuff is."
"It's... a hellhound. From my codex."
"Woah, oooookaaaay, Mr. 'I use my ENTIRE codex'."

Basilisks are sold on the GW web page, and you can have it delivered for free to a GW store. And its in the GW codex you buy for your army. That is apple and oranges to Forgeworld, which looks like a completely separate company at first glance to a newb. And then you have to buy a completely separate rulebook to run forgeworld. I know not everyone plays in a GW, but a lot of folks do.

Honestly I don't own any forgeworld, so I don't know what its like in the real world with the stuff. I just wonder if people would accept me showing up with weird units that no one else probably has seen.

Like the thunderbolt for example. I show up with a thunderbolt (which costs a freaking fortune by the way), are people going to just go "oh ok. sure play that." Or will they be "where the hell is that in the index?"

 argonak wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 argonak wrote:

Its different because of perception. Forge world isn't sold in a GW, so it isn't going to be commonly seen. Perhaps its leftover attitude from past editions, but I have a hard time expecting people to see someone lay down forgeworld specific units and not raise an eyebrow or be like "dude we're playing 40k, not whatever that custom unit stuff is."

Were that this only the case around here. Roughly 70% of the standard model line, as far as I can tell, isn't sold in most FLGS (at least around here), supposedly because GW won't let them sell it. Supposedly the Basilisk mine was selling last time I picked one up was something they were selling at cost that they'd bought direct just so that they could offer something that they used to have if anyone came in looking for it.

I obviously have zero way of being able to prove that, but I've only seen a basilisk in one of about four stores around and it was in the whitebox, not a standard retail, so I dunno. Might be some truth to it. I'm not hip enough on the latest wheelings and dealings to know for sure.

So, if that's the case, what's this degree of perception for anyone who's options are, as sold in the stores: "the entire line of space marines models" or "a troop choice and maybe 20% of the rest of the army"? I mean, sure, ordering direct is always an option, but if it is for GW, then it is for FW. There's not even the excuse of payment issues anymore. I paid for my last FW order paypal, of all the things! Man, where was that 10 years ago.

Or, more simply, to add to your narrative:

"Dude, we're playing 40k, not whatever that custom unit stuff is."
"It's... a hellhound. From my codex."
"Woah, oooookaaaay, Mr. 'I use my ENTIRE codex'."

Basilisks are sold on the GW web page, and you can have it delivered for free to a GW store. And its in the GW codex you buy for your army. That is apple and oranges to Forgeworld, which looks like a completely separate company at first glance to a newb. And then you have to buy a completely separate rulebook to run forgeworld. I know not everyone plays in a GW, but a lot of folks do.

Honestly I don't own any forgeworld, so I don't know what its like in the real world with the stuff. I just wonder if people would accept me showing up with weird units that no one else probably has seen.

Like the thunderbolt for example. I show up with a thunderbolt (which costs a freaking fortune by the way), are people going to just go "oh ok. sure play that." Or will they be "where the hell is that in the index?"

Everyone I have ever talked to or played against would be completely fine with it if you show them the Imperial Armour rules, except like 2 people on Dakka here.

 argonak wrote:

Basilisks are sold on the GW web page, and you can have it delivered for free to a GW store. And its in the GW codex you buy for your army. That is apple and oranges to Forgeworld, which looks like a completely separate company at first glance to a newb. And then you have to buy a completely separate rulebook to run forgeworld. I know not everyone plays in a GW, but a lot of folks do.

I don't have a GW store around me that I'm aware of, but I have at least four FLGS. Other than being in a "GW codex", there's literally an identical barrier to obtaining GW stuff as there is FW stuff. Needing to have a completely separate rulebook makes it no different from literally any codex. By your criteria, Sisters of Battle is unreasonable army to use in my area. There's also links and references to forgeworld's website from the GW site.

I'm not saying your opinion is wrong. I have no right to do that than you do to tell me that about mine; I'm just saying that your perspective is not necessarily universal.

Honestly I don't own any forgeworld, so I don't know what its like in the real world with the stuff. I just wonder if people would accept me showing up with weird units that no one else probably has seen.

Like the thunderbolt for example. I show up with a thunderbolt (which costs a freaking fortune by the way), are people going to just go "oh ok. sure play that." Or will they be "where the hell is that in the index?"

I would assume that the reason why everyone here pretends that FW is fine is because in their experience it always has been. I've been using FW locally for probably 6-7 years. I've never had one person tell me that they're unwilling to play against FW stuff. I just don't get what the freakout is, beyond a small handful of admittedly silly powerful units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Everyone I have ever talked to or played against would be completely fine with it if you show them the Imperial Armour rules, except like 2 people on Dakka here.

Hey hey, let's be fair, I think it's more like four. It's easy enough to figure out which four though, because they'll mention it in almost any conversation.

Lol! So my playing history:

I started using Forge World in 3rd Edition with a Baneblade.

I have had 1 person refuse to play against me since then because of FW. In 5th-6th edition, I used the FW Armoured Battlegroup list, in 7th I played mostly the Heresy (written by Forge World) and in 8th 1700 points of my 2000 point army are Forge World units.

This means that ever since I've started playing I've used Forge World Units. I've had one game turned down, avoided most GT's back in the day when they were banned (which has all changed now)... and that's it. The awful awful repercussions of investing in forge world ladies and gentlemen. Playing in four cities in two countries, and I've had a single game turned down.

I got more hate for running superheavies in 6th after Escalation came out (and a bit in 8th) than I have for any Forge World unit ever. It's weird how superheavies were more okay in 3rd, 4th, and 5th than they were after escalation came out lol.

I forgot about the baneblade and stormlord. I'm pretty sure I've had the plastic ones that GW made since sometime in 5th.

There is no debate. Forge world is Games Workshop. It is 40k. How is this even a thing anymore?

Showing up with units I've never seen or played against is actually very enjoyable.

How has this example not been brought up:

FW; Stygis Pattern Vanquisher: Exactly the same as a regular Vanquisher, but with +1 to hit if it doesn't move and a free co-ax Storm Bolter, giving the main gun re-roll to hit if it's shooting at the same target as the Storm Bolter.

GW; Vanquisher: None of the above.

Oh and they are exactly the same points-wise.

Except that it's 8 points more expensive for the stygies vanquisher????

(165 vs 157)

That means that without the 2 pts storm bolter, it's paying 6 pts for +1 BS and only if it doesn't move.

Why is FW banned in our group? The rules. For no reason, there are units in FW which are better than their index versions, often for no cost at all or only for laughable point cost.

Also, they are flaws in the rules, big flaws, which are not FAQed.

Also the unit rules are horribly imbalanced. Either they are bad or OP.

 Lothar wrote:
The rules. For no reason, there are units ... which are better than their index versions, often for no cost at all or only for laughable point cost.

Also, they are flaws in the rules, big flaws, which are not FAQed.

Also the unit rules are horribly imbalanced. Either they are bad or OP.

I think the two guys I know who play Infinity primary nowadays have said almost the exact same thing about GW's 40k.

 Lothar wrote:
Why is FW banned in our group? The rules. For no reason, there are units in FW which are better than their index versions, often for no cost at all or only for laughable point cost.

Name one.

 Lothar wrote:
Also, they are flaws in the rules, big flaws, which are not FAQed.

Also true of GW.

 Lothar wrote:

Also the unit rules are horribly imbalanced. Either they are bad or OP.

[Citation Needed]

I will take this time to point how there are several...SEVERAL threads about how good conscripts are. Some stuff in the FW book is good sure. Some average, some bad. I play a marauder destroyer. Im still waiting to see marauder spam be a thing.

I'm not sure that this thread was for complaining about how good some guard units are....isn't that the kind of point?

So about them Hotshot Volleys gun? Are they worth their points? I know plasma is all the rage right now, but I got a bunch of Scion rocking the damned things and I wonder how good they would be?

 Bobthehero wrote:
So about them Hotshot Volleys gun? Are they worth their points? I know plasma is all the rage right now, but I got a bunch of Scion rocking the damned things and I wonder how good they would be?

I've heard people musing about going to them if plasma gets nerfhammered. I'm going to cross that bridge when the time comes. Currently, I use plasma almost exclusively with a single squad of meltas thrown in depending on point values. You'd really have to nerf plasma hard to get me to NOT take it though.

I've become convinced the HSVG are worth taking on my two Taurox Primes though, along with the gatling sillygun..

Unfortunately, I built my Taurox Prime with missiles and autocannons, as I needed the longer range AT firepower. And I gotta get a Vendetta on top of that, because 3 meltas and the Taurox Prime aren't much in the way of AT.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So about them Hotshot Volleys gun? Are they worth their points? I know plasma is all the rage right now, but I got a bunch of Scion rocking the damned things and I wonder how good they would be?

They're fine, but they go a bit against what Scions are great at: putting guns within 9" of a target with high reliability. I wouldn't dismiss them entirely; being able to land anywhere and put out a respectable volume of shots at 24" isn't too shabby, and it'll certainly be better for their average lifespan. But when your unit can just materialize within meltagun / plasmagun range automatically, that 24" range loses a lot of its luster.

Its also valuable to have 1-2 cheap squads without special weapons to try and charge enemy vehicles from deep strike (Out of LoS if possible).

Not super killy. But if you make it to a vindicator you'll have a lot more breathing room.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So about them Hotshot Volleys gun? Are they worth their points? I know plasma is all the rage right now, but I got a bunch of Scion rocking the damned things and I wonder how good they would be?

I use a 10 man unit with 4 of them. They do a lot of work for me. You want to deploy them in your battle line, or deploy them in ruins in a commanding position, but one where they won't just get deleted. 24" range helps with that. I use them to support my guardsmen mostly though. The plasma units suicide in, these guys just sit back and do work. 16 shots at 24" s4 ap-2 is nothing to scoff at.

I've got to say, the Callidus Assassin is absolutely hilarious right now.

I was up against a SM/Ultramarines player who had 7 command points in total. For those of you who don't know, Ultramarines can re-gain a command point on a 5+ whenever they spend one.

But he was simply too terrified to spend any command points thanks to the Callidus's Reign of Confusion.

As more factions will be getting their codices along with plenty of Strategem's, I think the Callidus could have an important role to play.

 daedalus wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
So about them Hotshot Volleys gun? Are they worth their points? I know plasma is all the rage right now, but I got a bunch of Scion rocking the damned things and I wonder how good they would be?

I've heard people musing about going to them if plasma gets nerfhammered. I'm going to cross that bridge when the time comes. Currently, I use plasma almost exclusively with a single squad of meltas thrown in depending on point values. You'd really have to nerf plasma hard to get me to NOT take it though.

I've become convinced the HSVG are worth taking on my two Taurox Primes though, along with the gatling sillygun..

What are people's thoughts on how likely it is that plasma / scion command squads get nerfed again? Is it too early to start buying up new boxes and building up?

ajax_xaja wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
So about them Hotshot Volleys gun? Are they worth their points? I know plasma is all the rage right now, but I got a bunch of Scion rocking the damned things and I wonder how good they would be?

I've heard people musing about going to them if plasma gets nerfhammered. I'm going to cross that bridge when the time comes. Currently, I use plasma almost exclusively with a single squad of meltas thrown in depending on point values. You'd really have to nerf plasma hard to get me to NOT take it though.

I've become convinced the HSVG are worth taking on my two Taurox Primes though, along with the gatling sillygun..

What are people's thoughts on how likely it is that plasma / scion command squads get nerfed again? Is it too early to start buying up new boxes and building up?

There isn't a lot to do to nerf them without a major game change. They're not space marines, but they already cost closet to a space marine for much worse stats.

Were I gw I would fix it by just eliminating command squads. Command squad are the primary source of all the problems with scions. They get a minor discount on plasma guns versus other BS3+ armies, but that's not a big deal. its the ability to create a single squad with 4 plasma guns, AND deepstrike, that is the problem.

If you delete command squads and move all their abilities (banners, medics) to normal squads, the whole problem is largely eliminated. Because now you have to buy another 6 scions at 10 points each to grav chute those 4 plasma guns in. And then maybe you could make grav chutes a 2 point upgrade and drop the scion's base cost to 7 or 8. I'd be fine with that too.

edit: And then make them elites again unless you're in a scion only detachment.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So about them Hotshot Volleys gun? Are they worth their points? I know plasma is all the rage right now, but I got a bunch of Scion rocking the damned things and I wonder how good they would be?

I like em alright, they scare the gak out of scouts and other squishy units that like to hide on objectives, that's about it.

Is there anything other than plasma for high toughness critters with invuln saves? Seems a waste to shoot them with lascannons when there's a 50/50 chance of it just bouncing off.

Just bring more lascannons?