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Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asurman is really expensive. That is his biggest problem. His buff is awesome though. 4++ dire avengers are almost worth their 12 point cost. The asurman tax is too high though.

Amusingly enough I find Asurmen is a terrifying beatstick if supported correctly. It's a massive opportunity cost to pull of, but a >50% chance to drop d3 mortal wounds per hit on a target carves right through things. The whole package (Asurmen + Autarch + Farseer + Warlock/Spiritseer) is pushing 500 points, but damn can it do some scary things if it manages to connect.

Forgot to ask, I assume this is for re-roll ones, doom and empower respectively?

kingheff wrote:


Forgot to ask, I assume this is for re-roll ones, doom and empower respectively?

Correct. The Autarch isn't strictly necessary, but having a beatstick wingman isn't the worst thing in the world, especially when it can disrupt overwatches with the Banshee Mask.

Plus its pretty damn fluffy having a pair of heroes just wade in and melt faces from time to time.

Very true, I did think about a asurman and Jain zar combo, not only for the overwatch denial, but I figured anything left after the beat down hopefully they won't have a weapon to hit back with!

While denying a counterstrike is a consideration, remember that Asurmen is T4 with a 2+/3++ in melee (and you can always go bat**** with your Farseer thats supporting him and drop a Fortune for a 5+++). Against most things you'd actually be willing to charge him into, he can typically
handle himself.

Not saying it couldnt be a potent combo (and fluffy as all hell), just that those extra points may be more impactful elsewhere on the board.

Or protect on Asurman for a 2++.

Of course, but thats two warlocks/seers to boost one model. It's a one trick pony with a lot of moving parts, and rather fun to play, it's just so unwieldy and inefficient that my brain sneezes a few times when I think about it

Sterling191 wrote:
While denying a counterstrike is a consideration, remember that Asurmen is T4 with a 2+/3++ in melee (and you can always go bat**** with your Farseer thats supporting him and drop a Fortune for a 5+++). Against most things you'd actually be willing to charge him into, he can typically
handle himself.

Not saying it couldnt be a potent combo (and fluffy as all hell), just that those extra points may be more impactful elsewhere on the board.

Sure, I just like it as a funny idea more than anything. Knocking the emperor's sword out of guilliman's hand springs to mind!

Also, in an Uthwe list, Asurmen is probably your only model without a 6+++ already.

I don't have my book in front of me - I thought the Autarch aura was <Craftworld>, not Asuryani?

I find Asurmen to be the perfect counter-captain, in less competitive games. I wouldn't want to send him up against Smashfether (unsure how the numbers work out), but in less competitive games, him + DAs will mean when you go up against Captain + Tacs, you can actually push for CC. Overcosted for what he does, and you don't find his favorite scenarios at top tables much (by my reckoning). But a blast in many casual games.

Support with Banshess (or Scorpions) and with a smallish Reaper squad in back (or some other big guns), and you have a core 'demi-company' list that gives both players a great time (again in casual games). Fill to flavor.

It is <craftworlds>.

That's what I thought - so what benefit would an Autarch give a Phoenix Lord, since it won't get the rerolls?

Bharring wrote:
That's what I thought - so what benefit would an Autarch give a Phoenix Lord, since it won't get the rerolls?

None directly because I'm a fething idiot who has been playing it wrong for months (in my defense some of the Phoenix Lord nuance limitations are just bloody dumb).

Standing by my bit on it being a good beatstick buddy though, especially if you're committing supporting Banshees, Scorpions or other melee units to the rush.

Are any of the phoenix lords actually any good / useful?

Assuming that the Autarch is only allowed the Codex options (so no banshee masks etc), as it would seem likely that those options will be squatted sooner rather than later so I'm not going to waste time/money on conversions.

Niiru wrote:
Are any of the phoenix lords actually any good / useful?

That depends *entirely* on the gimmick you want to run.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Are any of the phoenix lords actually any good / useful?

That depends *entirely* on the gimmick you want to run.

Well my current list is wraith heavy Ulthwe list, with a couple units of wraithguard.

However I doubt there's any lords that actually help much with this, so I'd be curious to learn what the different 'gimmicks' are!

If you're not running Aspect Warriors, Phoenix Lords aint gonna do anything special for you. Each imparts additional affects, of one magnitude or another, to their namesake Aspect. Some boost all Aspects.

Asurmen gives Avengers a 4++, and all other Aspects a 5++

Bharroth gives a boost to Leadership (increased for Swoopin Hawks).


Fuegan allows Fire Dragons to reroll 1s for ranged weapons

Irrylith imparts an 18" fear bubble to Shadow Spectres

Jain Zar allows Banshees to fight first

Karandras gives exploding 6s on melee strikes to Scorpions (technically 6+s, which leads to hilarious things when you throw Scorpions at enemies in cover with the right boost)

Maugan Ra lets Reapers reroll 1s to hit

Sterling191 wrote:
If you're not running Aspect Warriors, Phoenix Lords aint gonna do anything special for you. Each imparts additional affects, of one magnitude or another, to their namesake Aspect. Some boost all Aspects.

Asurmen gives Avengers a 4++, and all other Aspects a 5++

Bharroth gives a boost to Leadership (increased for Swoopin Hawks).


Fuegan allows Fire Dragons to reroll 1s for ranged weapons

Irrylith imparts an 18" fear bubble to Shadow Spectres

Jain Zar allows Banshees to fight first

Karandras gives exploding 6s on melee strikes to Scorpions (technically 6+s, which leads to hilarious things when you throw Scorpions at enemies in cover with the right boost)

Maugan Ra lets Reapers reroll 1s to hit

A lot of those seem fairly lacklustre, I mean I'm sure they're fine in themselves but things like fear bubbles and re-rolling 1's are nothing unique to the Phoenix Lords. I mean it's nothing that you can't get from a bog standard SM Captain.

Which seems odd in itself, thousands of years of technology and experience, vs an Astartes middle-management. But that's just 40k for you in general.

Jain Zar interests me, being able to prevent overwatch on a unit. Even without some Banshees on the table he can assault a unit and shut down it's overwatch. Pricey though.

Asurman might be worth it with some Avengers, but still seems like spending the points on more avengers would be better protection.

Asurman/Bharroth/Ra/Irrylith are toolboxes with some interesting rules.

Jain Zar/Karandras/Fuegan are beatsticks.

They're the CWE equivelent of Chapter Masters. More expensive, better versions of Autarchs/Captains.

Their rules are generally lackluster. They each have some uses but tend not to be competitive.

They're still a lot of fun, though.

Niiru wrote:

A lot of those seem fairly lacklustre, I mean I'm sure they're fine in themselves but things like fear bubbles and re-rolling 1's are nothing unique to the Phoenix Lords. I mean it's nothing that you can't get from a bog standard SM Captain.

Some are, some arent. Each is also a fairly hefty beatstick in their own right, some in melee, some at range, some both.

Let's look at two of my favorite combos:

The Irrylith Leadership Bomb and the Karandras Streetsweeper.

Irrylith gives all of his Spectres an 18" fear bubble that forces an enemy to roll another die and discard the lowest for Morale checks. By itself, eh fairly lackluster. Combine it with other terror abilities that Eldar have (DEldar Phantom grenades, Hemlocks, Harlie fear auras, etc) and you can end up with a setup that does *more* damage in Morale than in does in Fight or Shooting.

Karandras on the other hand imparts a 6+ exploding attack to his namesakes. 1/6 chance with only 2 attacks, that sounds terrible right? Well hang on there. Scorpions innately add +1 to their hits when Fighting anything in cover. Tack on enhance and suddenly you've got exploding 4+s. But wait, toss in Supreme Disdain and each exploding 4 triggers two additional attacks, and you're hitting on 2s.

Playing Eldar is about unit synergy, not what a single unit alone can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:

They're the CWE equivelent of Chapter Masters. More expensive, better versions of Autarchs/Captains.

Exactly. Don't expect Primarch levels out of your Phoenix Lords.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

A lot of those seem fairly lacklustre, I mean I'm sure they're fine in themselves but things like fear bubbles and re-rolling 1's are nothing unique to the Phoenix Lords. I mean it's nothing that you can't get from a bog standard SM Captain.

Some are, some arent. Each is also a fairly hefty beatstick in their own right, some in melee, some at range, some both.

Karandras on the other hand imparts a 6+ exploding attack to his namesakes. 1/6 chance with only 2 attacks, that sounds terrible right? Well hang on there. Scorpions innately add +1 to their hits when Fighting anything in cover. Tack on enhance and suddenly you've got exploding 4+s. But wait, toss in Supreme Disdain and each exploding 4 triggers two additional attacks, and you're hitting on 2s.

Playing Eldar is about unit synergy, not what a single unit alone can do.

Sometimes you also need to recognize when a combo is cool in theory but underwhelming and expensive in practice. I often go down the same path of combo adding all kinds of buffs to make some of the combat aspect units work. But when you’re adding multiple Psykers on top of your base Farseer/protect seer; stratagems like supreme disdain and an expensive guy like karandras, that’s two additional hq choices and a stratagem to make 10 striking scorpions pretend to be as good as wyches in combat.

The combos in eldar go even beyond their own codex. While all three books can stand alone to one degree or another. With eldar and drukari being able to compete solo and harlequins misty being lower tier, it’s when the three books are combined that options really open up. The best shooting units (Spears, guardians, reapers)and characters(farseers, spiritseers, Phoenix lords, avatar) are found in the eldar codex, best combat options in the drukari( wyches and grotesques) and the best specialty units in harlequins(solitaire and haywire bikes).

Overall the hardest units to make work are the foot based combat units. And gw struggles to get them right. Wyches are great. Scorpions, banshees, incubi, harlequins all have serious flaws that are difficult to fix. Points cost and such being one flaw but also stats and delivery of t3 models that need to perform in combat where attrition is often the name of the game.

Also on the Phoenix lord discussion. Maugen ra and Jain zar both work well in lists with decent price points and unique skill sets that they can bring to the table. Asurmen is a fun beat stick with maybe a little too high a price tag. And bahhroth is actually a very cheap utility character as well. I use maugen ra a lot competitively in both eldar and ynarri lists, and have used Jain a few times as well, though her skills are often mimicked and improved on by index gear autarchs.

I play 25+ Dire Avengers with Asurmen from time to time and he is better than you give him credit for. He won't win you tournaments, but he is pretty good.

Beside of Phoenix Lords, what do you think from The Visarch?

Not sure how do use him as well as Yncarne.

Any hints?

Maxamato wrote:
Beside of Phoenix Lords, what do you think from The Visarch?

Not sure how do use him as well as Yncarne.

Any hints?

The Visarch is really just an expensive shield for Yvraine, and she doesn't need one(as she is a character with less than 10 wounds, so she can hide among the troops). The Yncarne can now be deployed normally, and he is a beat stick. He functions similarly to the Avatar of Khaine in that you march him towards a target you wish to destroy. As he is also a character with less than 10 wounds, you can surround him with other units for protection. The trickier parts about him are knowing when to use his relocation ability for optimal advantage.

Weidekuh wrote:
I play 25+ Dire Avengers with Asurmen from time to time and he is better than you give him credit for. He won't win you tournaments, but he is pretty good.

Yeah - most people will agree with this.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Maxamato wrote:
Beside of Phoenix Lords, what do you think from The Visarch?

Not sure how do use him as well as Yncarne.

Any hints?

The Visarch is really just an expensive shield for Yvraine, and she doesn't need one(as she is a character with less than 10 wounds, so she can hide among the troops). The Yncarne can now be deployed normally, and he is a beat stick. He functions similarly to the Avatar of Khaine in that you march him towards a target you wish to destroy. As he is also a character with less than 10 wounds, you can surround him with other units for protection. The trickier parts about him are knowing when to use his relocation absolut for optimal advantage.

Thx!

So, is it probably worth to team up him with an Avatar?

You can't have both of them in the same detachment because the Avatar can't be Ynnari (he belongs to a different deity), but in separate detachments, I suppose you could double up on them. However they kind of serve the same purpose and they won'tt buff each other or have a lot of synergy. For fun though, absolutely! I have though of doing it myself just to make a goofy list called "Dueling Avatars"

Taking this list for a friendly game. Has anyone ever actually run a full vyper squadron with their 20" base movement?

Ulthwe Battalion

Eldrad (guide, fortune, doom)
Farseer Skyrunner (doom, executioner)
Warlock Skyrunner (jinx)
5x Wraithguard w/ D-Scythe
16x Guardians + Shuricannon Platform
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
1x Vyper Squadron (3x Vypers)
4x Wave Serpent w/ Shuricannons
2x Hemlock (jinx/reveal)

My opponent said he's bringing terminators so we've agreed to avoid soup and generally take more fun units.

barboggo wrote:
Taking this list for a friendly game. Has anyone ever actually run a full vyper squadron with their 20" base movement?

Ulthwe Battalion

Eldrad (guide, fortune, doom)
Farseer Skyrunner (doom, executioner)
Warlock Skyrunner (jinx)
5x Wraithguard w/ D-Scythe
16x Guardians + Shuricannon Platform
5x Rangers
5x Rangers
1x Vyper Squadron (3x Vypers)
4x Wave Serpent w/ Shuricannons
2x Hemlock (jinx/reveal)

My opponent said he's bringing terminators so we've agreed to avoid soup and generally take more fun units.

I ran 1 squad of 2 Vypers with starcannons and shuriken cannons way back in January, and, I found they were ok, but probably only just “ok”. I ran them as Saim-hann as well so I could move and shoot without penalty, which, I think is a must if you want to run with heavy weapons imo. I didn’t really feel like I would have benefited much from them having a 20” move, especially as the cost starts getting ridiculously high.

I can see them working in a Biel tan shuriken army, maybe a couple in support of a unit of shining spears. You can make a case for war walkers for the invulnerable save or the hornet for the minus one to hit but hornets are a bit expensive for a couple of shuriken cannons.

T6 and a 5++ are pretty big durability factors in favour of War Walkers (vs Vypers). And because they can battle focus the difference in movement isn't very big either.

Its so close though, and they cost the same points. Probably the better question is what fits in the theme of your force, and your personal preference of the model itself (war walkers are a far newer kit).

The Vyper squadron ended up performing admirably in my game last weekend. My two Hemlocks and four wave serpents ended up drawing all of the fire anyway, so the Vypers were basically free to hop around the map adding support shurikens whereever it was needed. They probably die to a stiff breeze but for my purposes that game they were a great utility chaff clearance/cleanup unit especially since they kept their 20" move all game.