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After all the stories of players threatening one another, possible fights ( I think those stories are heresy)....do you think GW would continue sponsoring a sportsmanshipless tournament system?

Should they go back to the old RTT or GT format, where you had to be nice to have a chance at winning??

GW should sponsor two tournament events each year, and the non-Comp Ard Boyz Finals should be one of them.

Why?

Ard Boyz gives GW insight into *exactly* how players are "breaking" the Codices and Army Books. And because the objective is to see where / how armies are broken, GW structure the scoring to *encourage* Massacres and tabling. However, as this doesn't do much to promote the "sporting" GW Hobby as GW desires, GW probably ought to scale back the prize support...

The Baltimore GT is more desirable as a "fun" event, and GW probably ought to apply Comp to encourage "balanced" armies, along with simplified Win / Loss / Draw scoring. If the Ard Boyz event shows problems, Handicapping or Tiering might even be appropriate.

The problem is that GW doesn't do a good job of using the "free" tools available.

Ard Boyz 2010 schedule is already up on the GW site. Prelims are May 15th next year and the finals are at the Chicago Battle Bunker.

Remember we only read about the 1 problem from 2-3 stores while the vast majority 95% of games are played with no problem. I don't see it as an Ard Boyz thing as much as the inevitable disagreements that arise from any tournament. We've had big 'problems' from regular GT's, playing and painting, and even from this years Golden Daemon competition. It's not an Ard Boyz thing, it's just normal.


John - I'll tell you how to throw the whole Ard Boyz tournament into an absolute frenzy. Add a subjective comp scoring system. That way if I lose, I'll make sure my friend has the best chance to win by screwing you on the comp score I give you. That way my friend and I can split the 1st place prize.

GW does nothing of the sort in regards to using tournaments to look at what codexes are broken etc. Its just an event they run.

The only GT next year will be the Vegas GT, not Baltimore. I understand that they plan on using indy events like Adepticon to act as qualifiers.

I dunno about the scale of problems being 1 story from 2-3 stores. Remember a whole year of GT's got cancelled because of what happened in Seattle.

They should definately keep it, and I don't think there are as many issues as you seem to think, just one or two the last two years who do try to make alot of noise. And you are going to get that in any sort of competition. I've seen far worse coaching youth soccer. And not at the school level, but AYSO for fun only!

I've played the semi's the first year in Philly/Media at Mikhaila's store (hope I spelled it right), and there was only one minor issue, someone who tried using a mish mash of fantasy orcs, bits of scenery and anything he could lay hs hands on to "counts as" a 40k orc army. He was asked to leave once it was realized how non wysiwig it was. Other then that it was a great run and enjoyable day of gaming, well woth the 4 hour drive each way. Even the championship game which came down to a single dice roll (squad partially in a table quarter, trying to determine which it was in, players couldn't agree, he stepped in and used the GW preferred method of dispute settling, and single d6'd it.) So overall great experience, no bad players, and alot of fun. Same at finals that year in Baltimore. Didn't win, but had 3 great games (ran into Neil Caulley first game and got a draw in a wild but fun game), and won a few box sets for meeting individual round objectives (Killed one, and chased other Tau HQ off table on turn 1 to get 2 boxes from their"grab bag" for first people to kill HQ's in 3rd round).
2nd year played the semi's at Legions in Pittsburgh and had a great time, though when I only pulled a minor win on table 1 in the third round, 2 people passed me and relegated me to third, but still another trip to baltimore Finals, where again had a great time, with 3 very fun games, though another heartbreak in round 1 versus, what else, dark eldar.
This year did Legions again for semi, and best yet in terms of games and fun. And no complaints from any games that I saw. So in all, I've been darn fortunate to get to play in 8 rounds worth of hard boyz (all 3 locals at Gatehouse Games in Altoona, and all were quite clean and nary a single issue), and have seen alot of friendly enjoyable gameplay.
So I hope they do keep it, and just make sure the locals they choose to run it keep the games straight and ban any who do get out of hand. By having you have to register with name and email, it should be easier to keep tabs on the few real troublemakers and deny them the following year. I mean hey, what can we really ask for, the tournament is free to enter, painting isn't judged, and they do offer prize support!!

General Hobbs wrote:a whole year of GT's got cancelled because of what happened in Seattle.

What happened? Is there a thread somewhere about it? (Just did a search for Seattle GT and am none the wiser)

General Hobbs wrote:
After all the stories of players threatening one another, possible fights ( I think those stories are heresy)....do you think GW would continue sponsoring a sportsmanshipless tournament system?

Should they go back to the old RTT or GT format, where you had to be nice to have a chance at winning??

Even with the problems we had with 1 player, the event was a big success. 40 players, 1 problem. 58 games played, and really only 1 that was a headache. Very nice bunch of guys, knowledgable, and easygoing.

'Ardboyz also brings in a bit of a different mix of players than regular tournaments, especially at the local level. I think it's a great thing because it gets more people playing in tournaments. If once a year isn't enough, then maybe it will get a few more folks to paint their armies.)

General Hobbs wrote:GW does nothing of the sort in regards to using tournaments to look at what codexes are broken etc.

And that's precisely the problem. No-Comp, No-Sports Ard Boyz is simply about killing babies, and thus helping GW have an eye into the balance of things. But GW squanders the opportunity.
____

DarthDiggler wrote:John - I'll tell you how to throw the whole Ard Boyz tournament into an absolute frenzy. Add a subjective comp scoring system. That way if I lose, I'll make sure my friend has the best chance to win by screwing you on the comp score I give you. That way my friend and I can split the 1st place prize.

Of course it would - and it would defeat the entire purpose of the event.

IIRC, the UK GTs are no comp. I'm pretty sure they pay at least a little attention to those, given that they take place right under their noses. Much easier collecting meaningful data from those than the U.S. 'Ard Boyz scene.

It's not that GW doesn't know (or learn) what's broken. The issue is that their business plan says not to fix it until said army gets their next codex.

gorgon wrote:It's not that GW doesn't know (or learn) what's broken. The issue is that their business plan says not to fix it until said army gets their next codex.

Not exactly.

GW's business model fixes things with each new edition and each new major codex.

For example, prior to Orks, it was all MEQ all the time. You could (and should) gear up for tournaments with a pure anti-MEQ army. If you took a non-MEQ army, you had a huge metagame advantage, as you would auto-win 3/4 of your matches, while being largely immune to enemy anti-MEQ tactics. Post Orks & Guard, now the balance has shifted to something far more even between MEQ and GEQ horde.

When SM came out, their Drop Pods were called "broken", along with all DS-ing Daemons. IG advisors put the kibosh on that. GW didn't need to wait 4 years for the next SM Codex, nor 8+ years for the next Daemon book. GW simply nerfed them both through IG.

I just found out why Tony got upset. I'm not excusing his behavior, and to be honest, I know the guy and he's not someone I would ever play. Ever. I would forfeit the game first.....

The guy he was playing can be a dick about the rules. And he also gets the close combat rule wrong regarding multiple combats. Apparently, the judge rules in his favor and not Tony's, and this led up to the time running out, giving Ed the win.

<shakes head> Again, not excusing the behavior, but the judge blew the call on this.

The way he described it, the cc call looked correct to me.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Ard Boyz gives GW insight into *exactly* how players are "breaking" the Codices and Army Books. And because the objective is to see where / how armies are broken...

GW doesn't care if their rules work or not as long as they sell new models. Do you honestly thing 'Ard Boyz was set up as some sort of mass community playtest to kick the bugs out of Codices before they get redone?

Again, its run by the sales team not development team.. Its designed to make addicted gamers spend 800$ more dollars to win a prize worth the same (which only costs GW a small fraction of that)

'ard boyz is all about buy buy buy.. nothing else

General Hobbs wrote:

I just found out why Tony got upset. I'm not excusing his behavior, and to be honest, I know the guy and he's not someone I would ever play. Ever. I would forfeit the game first.....

The guy he was playing can be a dick about the rules. And he also gets the close combat rule wrong regarding multiple combats. Apparently, the judge rules in his favor and not Tony's, and this led up to the time running out, giving Ed the win.

<shakes head> Again, not excusing the behavior, but the judge blew the call on this.

Sounds like he got what he deserved xD

Mannahnin wrote:The way he described it, the cc call looked correct to me.

This is how it was described to me....

Unit A and Unit 1 are in combat. Unit B charges in.

Ed, the one player, believes that the rules say Unit 1 cannot fight Unit B at all.

Most people play that Unit 1 can divvy its attacks between A and B.

I wont bother going into the rules issue, but not only the judge but three other very experienced players were called in, all ruled against tony.

Not that it matters, having a ruling go against you does not give anyone the right to start making physical threats against players and store owners.

I was standing 2 feet away for the last hour of that game, (My game2 ended very early and I was watching the events at the top 4 tables)

In 15 years of gaming I have never seen anyone react so badly and even if the ruling was completely wrong, ( and I dont belive it was) the behaviour was inexcusable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That Said, I think Mikhalia handled it as well as anyone could have in that situation, and everyone at the event remarked to me about how well the event was run, how much fun they had and how much they look forward to returning there again.

Back to the point of the OP, I think Ard Boyz is a great event, and when you consider how many stores and players were involved, hundreds of stores, literally thousands of players between round1 and 2, the 3 stories we have heard are a tiny minority of the general experience.

General Hobbs wrote:

I just found out why Tony got upset. I'm not excusing his behavior, and to be honest, I know the guy and he's not someone I would ever play. Ever. I would forfeit the game first.....

The guy he was playing can be a dick about the rules. And he also gets the close combat rule wrong regarding multiple combats. Apparently, the judge rules in his favor and not Tony's, and this led up to the time running out, giving Ed the win.

<shakes head> Again, not excusing the behavior, but the judge blew the call on this.

Tony was upset and wound upbefore the game even started. His opponent was a saint for putting up with him. Tony's constant arguements cost that game nearly an hour of time. He was so arguementative, that I took a long time to make that call, looking at the book 3 times, the faq, and getting 2nd and 3rd opinions from other players that I knew to have good rules knowledge. Everyone that looked at the situation, except Tony, was in agreement. A few minutes went by and then Tony basically accused his opponent of cheating, with no real proof. More time gone. Then he wanted to not count the turn, and erase it.

Don't be so quick to condemn Tony's opponent, and defend Tony.

I had no complaints about his opponent from any of the other players, quite the opposite.

mikhaila wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

I just found out why Tony got upset. I'm not excusing his behavior, and to be honest, I know the guy and he's not someone I would ever play. Ever. I would forfeit the game first.....

The guy he was playing can be a dick about the rules. And he also gets the close combat rule wrong regarding multiple combats. Apparently, the judge rules in his favor and not Tony's, and this led up to the time running out, giving Ed the win.

<shakes head> Again, not excusing the behavior, but the judge blew the call on this.

Tony was upset and wound upbefore the game even started. His opponent was a saint for putting up with him. Tony's constant arguements cost that game nearly an hour of time. He was so arguementative, that I took a long time to make that call, looking at the book 3 times, the faq, and getting 2nd and 3rd opinions from other players that I knew to have good rules knowledge. Everyone that looked at the situation, except Tony, was in agreement. A few minutes went by and then Tony basically accused his opponent of cheating, with no real proof. More time gone. Then he wanted to not count the turn, and erase it.

Don't be so quick to condemn Tony's opponent, and defend Tony.

I had no complaints about his opponent from any of the other players, quite the opposite.

I'm not defending Tony, and I hope you don't feel I am attacking you. I'm just pointing out that he did have a gripe, and he totally acted the wrong way.

I know his opponent, and alot of people refuse to play him and don't play in tournaments because of his attitude.

It is odd that so many people got that rule wrong.