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I'll tell what I heard about finecast. Apparently they asked another company to do it for them and that company said it wasn't possible. So they basically said they would do it themselves and well, you at the result yourself.
insaniak wrote:
The what now? Ignoring the fact that 'Fine'cast is still quite prominently branded as 'Finecast'... How does GW describing 'Fine'cast as 'finely cast resin' help anything?
The reason the term "finely cast resin" comes up in every description is for Search Engine Optimization purposes. If a person does a Google search for "Finecast", they're going to end up at GW. That's not the goal. The goal is to rise to the top of the rankings for the key search term that defines your product. They want Google (and, to a lesser degree, Yahoo and Bing and Duckduckgo etc.) to associate "finely cast resin" with the Finecast name, and by extension, GW. This is how you beat your competition on the internet.
They don't seem to be showing up well with the term, but these things take time, money, and hammering the living **** out of the term to get ahead of competitors that have been using the term for years, with more inbound links.
My customer service rep who has been working my case, apparently "broke" the rules and went over to the stores and picked out a set of sprues to send me the best that Finecast could provide.
He still felt the need to describe all the errors on each of the sprues WTF!
DarkStarSabre wrote:If you win could you spare me £1000? Cheers!
You're going to need around a thousand just to start a new army with this next wave of price increases.
A Town Called Malus wrote:Just because it is called "The Executioners Axe" doesn't mean it is an axe...
azreal13 wrote:Dude, each to their own and all that, but frankly, if Dakka's interplanetary flame cannon of death goes off point blank in your nads you've nobody to blame but yourself!
HAZZER wrote:I Second that! They imp are easyer to wok with and cause there heavy they kinda stand out meanig that thy have something specail about them if that makes sence?
Have you been drinking by any chance HAZZER? Because that is probably the most spelling mistakes I've seen in one sentence from someone with a union flag by their name
I agree with what I think you're saying, though. I prefer metal to finecast. I like the weight of the model. Sure it's harder to put together some of the time, though I found my metal Hydra easier to put together than the finecast one. On the FC one the numbers on the sprue for the heads were destroyed by excess resin so I ended up comparing heads with my assembled and painted metal one to see which head went where. So much for more detail in finecast
sorry rushed it a bit. meant to say; Second that! They imo are easyer to work with and because there heavy they kinda stand out meanig that they have something specail about them if that makes sence? but yes I'm now only going to get the WD guy and GD guy becuase, I really want the modles!!!! And they are probaly going to have give out over 1000+ replacemnets too. It will be enjoayble to watch...
poda_t wrote:In this spoiler is a copy of the letter I am sending to GW. This is in case anyone is interested.
Games Workshop
6221 E Holmes Road
Memphis, TN USA 38141
Dear sir or madam,
RE: - Return of two boxes of defective Chaos Space Marine Raptors
File No.: - unknown
---------------------------------
I write to you with regard to the above noted matter, pursuant to conversation with your service agents. To say the least, I am deeply dissatisfied with your product and your companies conduct with regard to this matter. I—and my wallet—have been frustrated by your company’s pricing and market policies, though I have always understood your imperative to remain competitive, yield dividends to investors and protect your intellectual product and continued to support your company. However, the quality of the Finecast line of product has done more damage to my willingness to support your company than any of your company’s changes or policies over the past ten years.
After the change from metal to resin was initiated by your company, I waited for your customers to report on the quality of the product before committing to any further purchases of any product produced by your company. Between the price increase and the scathing review of the quality of the initial Finecast products, I did not make any purchases, expecting that over time such issues would be resolved. The initial reports seemed fairly hopeful given the ease with which a replacement was obtained, and that flaws can be expected with the first batch. After a year on the market, and repeated reports of defective products in addition to repeated requests for replacements, I anticipated that the upcoming Finecast releases would resolve the issues reported in previous releases and that the issues present in previous editions would be resolved as well. I perused multiple forums on the internet and conducted my research as to how the issues around Finecast were proceeding. Having found no definitive answers (given that it’s granted that complaints are made more often and more loudly than praise), I proceeded on a leap of faith—and a steep discount—to purchase the Finecast Raptors in order to replace the metal versions of the same models I already had in my possession.
To say the least, I am deeply disappointed. This was my first ever purchase of your Finecast product and was disappointed by the garage-grade quality of the casts. Referring you your website, the description of Citadel Finecast provides the following:
“Miniatures bearing this logo are part of the Citadel Finecast range. All citadel models are incredibly detailed, high-quality resin kits.”
After having taken the liberty of comparing the new resin product against its metal predecessor, I found no difference in the quality of detail which your advertising campaign was predicated on. Whether the poor quality of the cast of the resin has anything to do with this, I am unsure, but on comparing the deformities, two boxes of resin models sold by your company featured more problems than I have ever experienced in my lifetime’s purchases of metal products from your company. Further comparisons also highlighted frustration surrounding the placement of the gates on the resin models. I had no qualms or problems with removing flash from metal or plastic models, but it is readily apparent that I can expect to expend more time and effort in cleaning and preparing the resin models than any plastic counterparts manufactured by your company.
When a company advertises that the product it produces is high-quality, I fully expect that the item I purchase will be in as-advertised conditions. I have purchased resin products from a number of your competitors on numerous occasions, many of which were garage-based operations, and never observed the scope of defects in the material or the models produced by those companies as can be observed in your product.
My first experience in purchasing resin products from your company has me concerned first that quality control is absent and second that your company has no intention of rectifying or acknowledging any issues with your line of products. I expect that when I purchase your product, I will not be required to expend any effort to restore the product to as-advertised condition. I accept that flash and mould lines need to be removed, but filing gaps, bending an unyielding substance back into shape and sculpting missing details onto the model do not strike me as hallmarks of a high quality product. I do not find it acceptable that at $55 CAD per box, and with the advertising campaign behind the Citadel Finecast line of product that bubbles, warping and miscasting of a model’s components is normal. If your company was based out of a garage, the quality evidenced in the above-noted boxes I purchased would be expected. Given that your company has been on the market for over twenty five years and enjoys a presence on every continent and pre-eminence in the world of miniature war gaming, the fact that I am not able to produce one box that satisfies your advertising standards from the two boxes I purchased, the quality control evidenced by my purchase, and the public relations disaster your company apparently insists on ignoring, on web forums is abysmal. By extension, given that the models and components in both boxes showed problems in the same places, as for instance on the inside rims of the jump-packs, the same suggests much to be desired by your casting process.
As a comparison, the resin products from Privateer Press show a higher degree of quality, made from a sturdier material, with infrequent miscasts. I have even purchased resin products from garage operations that featured fewer miscasts than the above-noted Citadel Finecast products. Further, I feel vindicated in the fact that over the past twelve months, all of the products I have purchased—speaking specifically with regard to those that have received the Finecast treatment—I have only ever purchased the metal variants second hand. With the public history of Citadel Finecast products, the only fact that enticed me to purchase the above-noted product was a steep discount from Miniwargaming, and a leap of faith that your company had had sufficient time to resolve the issues surrounding the casting process.
Pursuant to calls to your customer service agents, I am returning the defective products for replacement as instructed, however, for the reasons outlined above as well as my conversations with your other customers that have experienced the same issues with the Citadel Finecast line of products—who have in some cases exchanged defective models as many as seven times in the case of the limited edition models released for the 25th anniversary of Warhammer 40’000—I will accept a replacement only once. I refuse to invest any more time and effort to receive the product I paid for, given especially that I need to take time out of my work day to deal with this problem. I take this opportunity to advise you that if the replacements do not satisfy an acceptable standard of quality, I will be demanding a full refund of $75.08 CAD. For your benefit and ease of reference with regard to this file, I enclose a copy of the invoice. Lastly, I will also discontinue all future purchases from your company and its subsidiaries until your line of Citadel Finecast products matches, at the very least, the standards established by your plastic kits and the market.
I await your response and replacements, and remain,
Yours truly,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Encl.
Ong that was a really powerful letter which i felt help say about the other miss casts like the aniversery marine and the horiable casts that they produced (Hint: me). I bet you are going to still get faulty replecments but for your sake I hope not...
HAZZER wrote:
Ong that was a really powerful letter which i felt help say about the other miss casts like the aniversery marine and the horiable casts that they produced (Hint: me). I bet you are going to still get faulty replecments but for your sake I hope not...
Oh, of course i'm going to get a disastrous quality cast. That's a given. They'd have to open the boxes and inspect them, and given that GW insists on blaming the material then their own methods, there will be flaws.
I also disagree about your statment that the metals had a nice weight to them. Most of the models have a nice weight, but things like the prancy dancing eldar or the CSM raptors.... the weight of the model is a hindrance given they seem to enjoy being horizontal more than vertical.
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
HAZZER wrote:
Ong that was a really powerful letter which i felt help say about the other miss casts like the aniversery marine and the horiable casts that they produced (Hint: me). I bet you are going to still get faulty replecments but for your sake I hope not...
Oh, of course i'm going to get a disastrous quality cast. That's a given. They'd have to open the boxes and inspect them, and given that GW insists on blaming the material then their own methods, there will be flaws.
I also disagree about your statment that the metals had a nice weight to them. Most of the models have a nice weight, but things like the prancy dancing eldar or the CSM raptors.... the weight of the model is a hindrance given they seem to enjoy being horizontal more than vertical.
True my freind, true. But the only metal modles that I have had have been normal standing guys. But yes mdoles like the raptors I expect would be a pain for breaking...
Just wanted to post that I bought my friend's son a Black Orc Warboss in Finecast last night for his birthday. I inspected the box before purchasing (only one), and there was a TON of flash, though all very thin. I called my buddy and asked if he'd like me to give his son the Orc still in package or clean the flash since I ascertained it would take a good 15 minutes or more to clean everything off of it before assembly. I was asked to clean it up before giving it to him. It took me 20 minutes, but there was only a single miscast on the model, and it was covered by the shield 95% of the way. In other words, another great model. My great purchases have been Cato, Warboss, Cockatrice, Empire Witch Hunter; my models with small issues have been Grimgor, and Dante; my bad models have been the 25th anniversary and the Hellcannon-my replacement Hellcannon wasn't great either, although it was leaps and bounds better than the first-I'm not going to call on it though because I'm 80% satisfied with the second and the first (through a few hours of work) can be fixed up to be presentable, which means I got them for 50% off in the end. At that point, I can live with the mistakes. If I was asked to send them back, I'd agree to do so, but I wouldn't accept any mistakes more than a few hidden bubbles.
So to recap, I'm 50% near flawless, 25% minor issues, 25% bad. To be honest, that's pretty close to where they were batting with metal for me. Anyone disagreeing never put together a metal Bloodcrusher, a metal Griffon or a Beast of Nurgle. And those are only a few I've had issue with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:
helium42 wrote:
DarkStarSabre wrote:If you win could you spare me £1000? Cheers!
You're going to need around a thousand just to start a new army with this next wave of price increases.
I just want it for a new computer
I cannot help but think that there is something wrong when inanimate lumps of plastic will end up costing more than a decent computer.
Your 'decent' computer will be obsolete within 2 years (generous) and your lumps of plastic will still be as usable in ten years as they are now (may not fulfill the same role, but will be just as physically usable). Your computer will also overheat, get viruses, and the fan and motherboard will short out at some point in the near future. You're doing better with the minis, actually. It won't seem so in the short run, but in the long run, you'll do better with the models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/26 05:32:55
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
A 'great model' with a miscast.... for the love of His Great Noodly Appendage (replace as appropriate) get yourself a Black Scorpion wild west something or other... or anything by Verlinden... or McVey... Those are great models, what you're describing sounds like bargain bucket borderline acceptable.
I was asked to clean it up before giving it to him. It took me 20 minutes, but there was only a single miscast on the model, and it was covered by the shield 95% of the way. In other words, another great model.
I have a hard time coming to terms with calling any model with a miscast, even a miscast that is '95%' covered by another part of the model, a great model. But YMMV.
A Town Called Malus wrote:Just because it is called "The Executioners Axe" doesn't mean it is an axe...
azreal13 wrote:Dude, each to their own and all that, but frankly, if Dakka's interplanetary flame cannon of death goes off point blank in your nads you've nobody to blame but yourself!
Your computer will also overheat, get viruses, and the fan and motherboard will short out at some point in the near future.
...I'm not by any means an expert on computers or anything like that, but uh...
If your computer is overheating then it doesn't have adequate cooling and you should probably put more fans in it. Mine has two intakes and two exhaust, and most cases I've seen have space to mount at least 6 or more fans. If you do a lot of gaming or rendering, things that put your system under heavy load, then you'll need them. Also, fans and the inside of the case should be cleaned out regularly, excessive dust build-up can help cause heat issues, too. Smart browsing and good virus protection will help keep you from getting viruses, and there are (free) programs like Malware Bytes and Spybot Search and Destroy that can help in addition to having good anti-virus software. I've had this computer for well over a year and a half, and never had anything go seriously wrong, the worst I've ever gotten is probably the DRM I've had to install willingly to play certain games. My last computer lasted about 5 years and was nowhere near as good as the one I have now, nor did I strive to take care of it as well as I do this one, so this "after 2 years it's trash" mentality isn't exactly true.
It also goes without saying that you can increase the longevity of your machine by "future-proofing" it when you're buying/building one. I only spent $1000 on mine and I basically don't have to worry about whether or not it can handle a certain game, so if I spent even more and bought top-of-the-line gak it wouldn't be an issue for a while to come. It usually takes a few years for game developers to catch up to the technology, too...IIRC when multi-core processors first came out it still took a while before games were designed to take advantage of multiple cores. Now if you went out and bought a bargain bin PC without doing any research then yeah, you could end up with something that needed to be replaced relatively shortly because it can't do anything you want it to do...and if you went into a GW blind and bought everything the GW staff told you to get you'd end up with four or five different armies worth of models (funnily enough a lot of those models would be new releases) for all three systems (and not enough of any one army to actually play a game), about $800 worth of paint and hobby supplies, a Realm of Battle board...
You're doing better with the minis, actually. It won't seem so in the short run, but in the long run, you'll do better with the models.
I really don't think you can compare them, because it mostly depends on what you want to do. I can't use my models to pay my bills or talk to friends I've made in other states or even overseas. I can't render video or store my entire music collection on my models. I can't watch movies or videos/livestreams online, or post on forums like Dakka, with my models. If you're talking strictly hobby, and you know you're more of a modeler/tabletop gamer than a video or PC gamer, then yeah, the models would probably be a better buy, and would last longer...so long as you don't replace them with new ones and don't care if new rules make your old units obsolete (I mean if you like losing all the time then go for it, whatever turns you on). But as far as what the "better buy" would be, a computer is hands-down a lot more useful, and practical. You can do so much with a computer, but with models your only choices are displaying them or playing with them, and only like-minded people will appreciate them. I don't need to explain to anyone why I bought a computer, or feel ashamed of it and hide it like I would with my modeling hobby.
And also, when I bought my computer I didn't have continuous issues with it, like with Finecast. I didn't have to call the manufacturer over and over because of broken or malfunctioning parts. I didn't have to have replacement after replacement sent before I could even get started using it. Judging from my luck with Finecast so far, and what I've seen in this thread, I could go out and buy $300-400 worth of Finecast models and there's a good chance only half of them would be usable, with only regular clean-up and assembly required.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/26 08:44:58
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
So to recap, I'm 50% near flawless, 25% minor issues, 25% bad. To be honest, that's pretty close to where they were batting with metal for me. Anyone disagreeing never put together a metal Bloodcrusher, a metal Griffon or a Beast of Nurgle. And those are only a few I've had issue with.
Then you have to be the a person with the worst luck I have ever seen. 25% bad in metal and another 25% minor issues? In metal, really?
Hell if I had maybe a dozen flaws in metals in 20 years That would be at most. I can recall almost all the miscast or flaws from metals over the years. I dont even think its that much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/26 11:52:18
Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...
Sorry I forgot to post what the miscast was-some of the links of chainmail were smooth, not chain-mail linky at all. Maybe a millimeter squared area. And I consider warped metal that doesn't fit together properly to be a miscast-not with bubbles and obscured detail, but with actual pieces that don't fit together. Being metal, I have to try to bend it in place with massive force that usually damages detail. So yes, a few smooth chain links hidden by a shield are no bother if they won't be noticeable.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.
I also had regular "problems" with metal. As timetowaste says, it's an issue with bigger models. The old Deathclaw and Valten models needed bending and greenstuffing. No problems with detail at all, though.
I remember having the same argument at the time that I've repeated on here - I shouldn't have to make any changes to a model of this price. When requested, they were always replaced with no questions asked.
Finecast seems to be something else. Resin is brittle, and detail problems are clearly much harder to resolve for the non-expert. I'm sticking with plastic conversions from now on.
Due to ill health i will have to buy online for the next couple of months.
This is the first time that i will be buying Finecast online, so before i purchase anything i have emailed GWCS to clarify the returns policy and what they would deem a faulty miniature.
treadhead1944 wrote:Throwing this out there, not making any judgments about it. From what I heard GW is switching to a 100% inspect on the finecast before it is packaged. If any "unacceptable" flaws come through the packaging and model are to be returned so the inspector can be tracked, and disciplined if necessary.
As I said, just repeating what I heard, no judging on my part as to the voracity of the statement.
Ordered a Thunder Fire Cannon. Picked it up today. Missing a sprue. Returned. So much for 100% inspect
I bought 2 necron heavy destroyers- the old kind with metal weapons and tried to order the other 7 that I wanted. It was in flux and not available.
Now to my "joy" GW has determined to mould it in finecast. I ordered it from my LGS and was told when they arrived all SEVEN were warped and worthless.
Please tell me why this is is the "highest quality?" Forge World knows how to make fine resin models but GW does not. It will impact what armies I will play and what armies I will buy. If there is a dependence on Finecast due to GW codex and GW product, I will not buy it. I hope that GW is completely happy with 50% cost increase for resin because metal costs so much...
I really wish they had run metal side by side with resin. 200% cost for metal and 100% cost for resin. Let them see what their customers would buy.
DAaddict wrote:I bought 2 necron heavy destroyers- the old kind with metal weapons and tried to order the other 7 that I wanted. It was in flux and not available.
Now to my "joy" GW has determined to mould it in finecast. I ordered it from my LGS and was told when they arrived all SEVEN were warped and worthless.
Please tell me why this is is the "highest quality?" Forge World knows how to make fine resin models but GW does not. It will impact what armies I will play and what armies I will buy. If there is a dependence on Finecast due to GW codex and GW product, I will not buy it. I hope that GW is completely happy with 50% cost increase for resin because metal costs so much...
I really wish they had run metal side by side with resin. 200% cost for metal and 100% cost for resin. Let them see what their customers would buy.
Because GW just expended it's entire operative budget on the following list (in no particular order):
Dreadfail
Emo angels
Silver Knights
Space BDSM Elves
Non-Terminator Terminators
re-branding of paints that didn't need re-branding.
tomb kings
GW was left without any budget left to pay someone to do finecast properly. I genuinely suspect this to be the case because the circumstances around Finecast have not improved over the past year and new kits exhibit the same "unique custom features" as the initial releases made a year ago. I think GW really outdid themselves overt the past while and drained too much money into development and new products, and unforunately, slamming too much through too quickly meant something had to take a hit, which happens to be finecast.
I'm sure someone else has already mentioned this, and I haven't read it, but this really just occurred to me. for a miniature wargame company, GW's been busy over the past while.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pitboy2710 wrote:Due to ill health i will have to buy online for the next couple of months.
This is the first time that i will be buying Finecast online, so before i purchase anything i have emailed GWCS to clarify the returns policy and what they would deem a faulty miniature.
and? I'm sorry, but I don't see any relevance to your post. (Like, GW's response for instance, or whether I should sympathize with you that you are unable to leave your house right now).
The thread is really quite long, bu tI think it already outlines GW's policy. That said, you are in GB, so your service should be spectacular. Do give us an update on GW's reply though, in addition to any other information around either the model's ordered or the reasoning behind GW's response and conduct.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/27 06:17:02
15 successful trades as a buyer;
16 successful trades as a seller;
To glimpse the future, you must look to the past and understand it. Names may change, but human behavior repeats itself. Prophetic insight is nothing more than profound hindsight.
It doesn't matter how bloody far the apple falls from the tree. If the apple fell off of a Granny Smith, that apple is going to grow into a Granny bloody Smith. The only difference is whether that apple grows in the shade of the tree it fell from.
pitboy2710 wrote:people have posted what they deem faulty but i have not seen anyone ask GW what they deem faulty ( may of missed it ).
I could be wrong, but iirc it is not actually allowed to sell any product the manufacturer deems faulty, i.e. any product sold is assumed to be acceptable and any deviations slipped through quality control.
I would be grateful if someone, who actually has experience with trade law, could correct me if I´m wrong.
With the number of misscasts that are deemed faulty by the people who recieved them (both newly bought AND send as replacement by customer service) it´s quite unlikely that they simply slipped through QC however (especially if we consider cases like the anniversary marine, who, due to his limited number and premium character, should have been controled to higher degree than your run of the mill finecast modell and yet still had a huge number of cases that were deemed severe by buyers). That would mean that GW apparently considers most of the examples in this thread acceptable.
If you in addition consider the pushing of Liquid Green Stuff for the bubbles and other faults by sale reps, that indeed seems to be the case.
So yeah, no real need to ask GW: If they´re selling it chances are they don´t consider any of this truly faulty. They replace it, but that does not mean that they actually consider them faulty. Chances are that the lighter cases go back into sale after quick check up.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/27 12:44:18
Well I just got my termi chaplain in the mail and the first thing I saw was this:
I'm rather annoyed they are doing finecasts that are direct order only, if I was able to buy this in store it would be easy enough to grab a better one or just ask for a new arm.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
I don't know what you call that, but that seems to be a rather common issue with Finecast models from what I've seen. Granted I don't often see it as bad as that, but it's the same deal: large parts of a model are just missing.
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
Upon further inspection there is a small group of bubbles in the part between the shin and the foot that would take a minute to slap some greenstuff over and be fixed and those are the only 2 problems on the model.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
I've just started working with my first ever Finecast model a Big Mek with a KFF.
There are holes and gaps and bubbles in evidence, it seemed okay when I was cleaning it and I thought I'd got it looking okay, when I came to put the paint on did i really notice all the recesses and holes in the poor chap.
After working on some of the old metal Orks just prior to this I must admit I am really disappointed.
2000
2000
WIP
3000
8000 
1850 Guard,
