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Finecrapst is the most forced bad pun I've ever heard on Finecast. And I thought Fineco$t was stupid enough. Shame the guy got a bad sculpt but I don't see how this warrants its own thread.

See this is why I dropped GW, even for trade. Sold off my armies except one.....I was considering starting necrons but once some were going to be finecast that was the end of that. Wont buy finecast, ever.

@ Brother SRM - To be honest, rightly or wrongly, Finecast has now become so synonymous with over priced poor quality, it doesn't really need an amusing nickname anymore.

Ovion wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:This is awful. I have recently started a DE army and I am dreading trying to find correctly cast minis. On the plus side I can go directly to a GW for my purchase. I feel sorry for the poor sap who has to explain why I can't find a model that I can use.

So long as you don't want any of the court, grotesques, shadowseers or anything from the beasts unit.

They generally only stock Haems, the archon, succubus, urien, usually lelith and lhameans if you're lucky blister wise.

And Mandrakes, Incubi and Wracks are sealed boxes not blisters.

Well that is all quite wonderful news as I do need beasts. Guess I will be sure to order through GW direct for prompt CS. Hopefully everything works out.

I sure do miss metal miniatures. :(

Flashman wrote:@ Brother SRM - To be honest, rightly or wrongly, Finecast has now become so synonymous with over priced poor quality, it doesn't really need an amusing nickname anymore.

This. It basically satirizes itself now.

(Also isn't your signature a reference to El-ahrairah from Watership down?)

Brother SRM wrote:Finecrapst is the most forced bad pun I've ever heard on Finecast. And I thought Fineco$t was stupid enough. Shame the guy got a bad sculpt but I don't see how this warrants its own thread.

Actually he got 9 consecutive "bad sculpts" like you call them, on what GW says "All Citadel Finecast models are incredibly detailed, high-quality resin kits.", 6 months after the product was released (so all those "new casting medium" issues should have been solved by now).

I'm sorry that you find the "failcost" memes to be bad, but until the time that GW solves these issues they are perfectly warranted.

A Town Called Malus wrote:(Also isn't your signature a reference to El-ahrairah from Watership down?)

It is indeed, well spotted

That is truly, genuinely unacceptable... and unbelievable... We are what, 6 months + in now?? Where is the QC???

I am truly disappointed to see this, and as has been said before, and however un-moddly it may be to agree with a absolutist statement, I can't see how anyone, no matter how biased, could defend this kind of performance.

MajorTom11 wrote:That is truly, genuinely unacceptable... and unbelievable... We are what, 6 months + in now?? Where is the QC???

I am truly disappointed to see this, and as has been said before, and however un-moddly it may be to agree with a absolutist statement, I can't see how anyone, no matter how biased, could defend this kind of performance.

What kind of performance? One where people are saying that "ANY FLAW IS UNACCEPTABLE" and going off an advertising slogan?

Red Bull doesn't really give me wings. Unacceptable!

That aside, yeah. There are problems. But using Privateer Press to highlight it is lulzworthy. Let's compare a company which actually has enough in the way of castings that they can sling out free ones to one which has been having problems meeting the demand placed within their own webstore!

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:That is truly, genuinely unacceptable... and unbelievable... We are what, 6 months + in now?? Where is the QC???

I am truly disappointed to see this, and as has been said before, and however un-moddly it may be to agree with a absolutist statement, I can't see how anyone, no matter how biased, could defend this kind of performance.

What kind of performance? One where people are saying that "ANY FLAW IS UNACCEPTABLE" and going off an advertising slogan?

Red Bull doesn't really give me wings. Unacceptable!

That aside, yeah. There are problems. But using Privateer Press to highlight it is lulzworthy. Let's compare a company which actually has enough in the way of castings that they can sling out free ones to one which has been having problems meeting the demand placed within their own webstore!

... seriously? The Red Bull argument is what you're playing?

It's called "Product Liability" , it's illegal to sell a defective product without informing the seller, and I don't see "BUYER BEWARE" cited for Finecast, in fact I see the contrary;

Our Citadel Finecast models are the latest step in hobby evolution, providing you with incredibly detailed, high-quality resin kits to bolster your army. Painting and modelling Citadel miniatures has never been as rewarding as this.

cited: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=16600008a


You aren't getting what they are advertising , so they have a legal obligation to step up and fix this issue.

Step down GW white knight, step down

The ones in the link the Mat got were clearly quite mangled, the fact he is on #8 doesn't bug you at all? Let's face it Kan, Finecast is the only product out there right now with this level of failiure that I know of... it is the worst material from the big players... Forgeworld rarely has issues, GW plastics are perfect, GW metals were pretty good, PP, Wyrd and Mantic don't have issues to this scale and consistency...

Come on man, a few bubbles easily patched is one thing, chunks of deformed resin, missing fingers and bubbles all over the place on any thin piece are big problems if you give a crap about painting up anything past tabletop. Anything that costs more than the old version, but requires me to spend hours to fix it to acceptable standards is too damned much.

I know you are loathe to say anything against GW, but jeeze man, put yourself in his shoes! 8 times! With replacements from GW! They couldn't check themselves saying, oh, we have lost 7 models worth of profit, maybe we should just make sure we send him a good one?

It isn't against GW to say they need to do better here dude, it is FOR GW... they are costing themselves profit, and more importantly, creating PR problems. You want to help them? Support decisions that will minimize their profit loss and encourage customer retention and positive feedback... Jeeze...

I got my Overlord as a gift from my friend, there were a few tiny faults, like some of the dangling charms had a teeny bubble, but being the optimist I am, I said it looks fairly acceptable in this case, considering Necrons are pretty ancient as they are, my only major issue was the warscythe...lets just say the blade is more of a chainscythe, so many bubbles!

Still, I believe it was the first and last finecast model ill be getting until I see a bit of improvements.

Always reliable Kan. Someone has 8 miscasts and yet apparently complaining is unreasonable because "red bull doesn't really give you wings" so why expect GW to sell you a usable product?

That's a stoop even for you.

StasisNid95 wrote:I got my Overlord as a gift from my friend, there were a few tiny faults, like some of the dangling charms had a teeny bubble, but being the optimist I am, I said it looks fairly acceptable in this case, considering Necrons are pretty ancient as they are, my only major issue was the warscythe...lets just say the blade is more of a chainscythe, so many bubbles!

Still, I believe it was the first and last finecast model ill be getting until I see a bit of improvements.

Call up GW to get a replacement if the weapon (a very prominent feature of the model) is that laden with bubbles. They will only change once consumers force them to by hitting them in the only place it matters... their bottom line. Once it costs them less to employ competent people who are not legally blind as QA people for the Finecast range as opposed to shipping out replacements, only then will they change.

PS Kan, if you think Red Bull is promising to literally grow wings on a human being, then you disqualify yourself from being taken at all seriously here lol... Saying the best mini on earth when selling minis is a very literal and direct statement. A caffeine drink saying it will give you wings? Call me crazy, but I think it is metaphorical to the effects of caffeine...

Hell, the ipad was supposed to be 'magical', I don't see people suing because it failed to cast spells.

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:That is truly, genuinely unacceptable... and unbelievable... We are what, 6 months + in now?? Where is the QC???

I am truly disappointed to see this, and as has been said before, and however un-moddly it may be to agree with a absolutist statement, I can't see how anyone, no matter how biased, could defend this kind of performance.

What kind of performance? One where people are saying that "ANY FLAW IS UNACCEPTABLE" and going off an advertising slogan?

The flaws shown in the blog truly are unacceptable. You wouldn't accept them on a plastic miniature sprue, so why accept them on a Finecast one?

MajorTom11 wrote:That is truly, genuinely unacceptable... and unbelievable... We are what, 6 months + in now?? Where is the QC???

I am truly disappointed to see this, and as has been said before, and however un-moddly it may be to agree with a absolutist statement, I can't see how anyone, no matter how biased, could defend this kind of performance.

And the next post is:

Kanluwen wrote:

MajorTom11 wrote:That is truly, genuinely unacceptable... and unbelievable... We are what, 6 months + in now?? Where is the QC???

I am truly disappointed to see this, and as has been said before, and however un-moddly it may be to agree with a absolutist statement, I can't see how anyone, no matter how biased, could defend this kind of performance.

What kind of performance? One where people are saying that "ANY FLAW IS UNACCEPTABLE" and going off an advertising slogan?

Red Bull doesn't really give me wings. Unacceptable!

That aside, yeah. There are problems. But using Privateer Press to highlight it is lulzworthy. Let's compare a company which actually has enough in the way of castings that they can sling out free ones to one which has been having problems meeting the demand placed within their own webstore!

Did you guys plan that or what?

inquisitorlewis wrote:

Ovion wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:This is awful. I have recently started a DE army and I am dreading trying to find correctly cast minis. On the plus side I can go directly to a GW for my purchase. I feel sorry for the poor sap who has to explain why I can't find a model that I can use.

So long as you don't want any of the court, grotesques, shadowseers or anything from the beasts unit.

They generally only stock Haems, the archon, succubus, urien, usually lelith and lhameans if you're lucky blister wise.

And Mandrakes, Incubi and Wracks are sealed boxes not blisters.

Well that is all quite wonderful news as I do need beasts. Guess I will be sure to order through GW direct for prompt CS. Hopefully everything works out.

I sure do miss metal miniatures. :(

You're in luck, the Beast units are one of the few DE that haven't been switched to finecast - they're still metal : D

Though they're obscenely expensive.

If you want some advice on how to have not cost you £50-250:
Buy a box of Hellions to convert to Beast Masters. That's 5 for 15.50 as opposed to 1 for £8.70.
Buy a box of WHFB Chaos Warhounds or Vampire Counts Dire Wolves, to convert into Khymerae which are both £15.50 for 10, as opposed to £8.70 for 1. (or £87 for 10)

I don't actually have much of an issue with the razorwing flocks, as they aren't too ridiculous compared to the rest, though you could feasibly use omething like a Vampire Counts Bat Swarm which are 2 bases of 5 metal bats, so you could probably make 3-4 bases of Razorwings out of 1 pack, or 6-7 bases out of 2.

MajorTom11 wrote:PS Kan, if you think Red Bull is promising to literally grow wings on a human being, then you disqualify yourself from being taken at all seriously here lol... Saying the best mini on earth when selling minis is a very literal and direct statement. A caffeine drink saying it will give you wings? Call me crazy, but I think it is metaphorical to the effects of caffeine...

Hell, the ipad was supposed to be 'magical', I don't see people suing because it failed to cast spells.

Or taking out a case against "The Never Ending Story" because it only lasted an hour and some?

MajorTom11 wrote:The ones in the link the Mat got were clearly quite mangled, the fact he is on #8 doesn't bug you at all? Let's face it Kan, Finecast is the only product out there right now with this level of failiure that I know of... it is the worst material from the big players...

Finecast is also the only one which people are apparently actively looking for problems in. I'm sure if people started reporting problems with Privateer's warjacks we'd see a very different story.

Forgeworld rarely has issues

Lol? Forge World has plenty of issues, as much as I love 'em. I know what I'm in for with a Forge World model, and it's not usually a breeze. I got lucky with my Wight King as it's a simple model and required basically no work.

GW plastics are perfect, GW metals were pretty good, PP, Wyrd and Mantic don't have issues to this scale and consistency...

Privateer Press and Mantic are selling plastic models. Technically, "plastiresin" much like the Starship Troopers figures which means very little physical detail going on(a few folds of cloth here and there, some armor plating, etc) but quite solid models.

Come on man, a few bubbles easily patched is one thing, chunks of deformed resin, missing fingers and bubbles all over the place on any thin piece are big problems if you give a crap about painting up anything past tabletop. Anything that costs more than the old version, but requires me to spend hours to fix it to acceptable standards is too damned much.

And how do you know that metals would have been any better? Did you ever consider it's a problem with the moulds?

And I really think that people are forgetting how long it would take in some cases fixing metal models. I remember a good 3-4 hours working on some kits.

I know you are loathe to say anything against GW, but jeeze man, put yourself in his shoes! 8 times! With replacements from GW! They couldn't check themselves saying, oh, we have lost 7 models worth of profit, maybe we should just make sure we send him a good one?

And 8 times for what problems? Several he's said he could have fixed himself, but he didn't want to. We only saw what though, three of those models?

But let's face it. People won't accept anything less than a perfectly flawless cast, because apparently advertising slogans are serious business.

It isn't against GW to say they need to do better here dude, it is FOR GW... they are costing themselves profit, and more importantly, creating PR problems. You want to help them? Support decisions that will minimize their profit loss and encourage customer retention and positive feedback... Jeeze...

And I have said they need to do better here, dude. I'm saying as much right fething now in the "GW Review" thread.
As for PR: There's no way they can win in this situation and you very well know it. People are going to throw hissy fits until they have their precious metal models back or unless Finecast is dropped to the prices of metal blisters of Yesteryear.

^^I don't want metal models back. I actually rejoiced when I heard they were stopping them (I collect tyranids and necrons... I know how much it sucks to put together 3x zoanthropes, 2x venomthropes and 12x wraiths... ), so when they initiated resin, I actually was fine with the small price increase as I knew I wasn't going to deal with the weight issues and counter balancing issues as the metal models offered.

What we were given though is constant failure in almost every single model.

Is it really too much to ask to order a model and have a confident feeling it will arrive in perfect condition? I mean, there were ENTIRE ARMIES that were metal before, and of course there were some issues with metal figures, but not even close to the issues of what the resin is offering.

And yes, Forgeworld is much, MUCH better quality. Between myself and my friends, we own probably 30-40+ forgeworld models and NONE of them had a single issue.

I don't want metal models back nor am I petitioning for a price decrease (GW models have long since passed the point where I would willingly part the required money for them). All I want, as a hypothetical consumer would be to be able to walk into a GW shop and make a purchase secure in the knowledge that I am getting what I paid for. If I buy a DVD player, I don't have to open it in the store and check it plays DVDs so why should I have to open a blister to check a model for defects that I am already paying a premium price for anyway?

I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I have had to return faulty goods to a shop in some 20 odd years as a consumer. Why some people feel GW should be an exception to this standard, I don't know. This is not being overly harsh or deliberately critical in any way; simply expecting the same standards from GW products as I would from pretty much any other high street store. Its not like we are asking for lofty goals here.

Legally they should be providing a flawless cast as their advertising claims it to be a high quality kit, and there's no disclaimer saying it may have flaws anywhere.

So yes - we should expect it to be perfect when they advertise it as such.

This is NOT one of those times advertising requires suspension of disbelief, it's an actual claim as to the standard of their product.

@ filbert- I really agree... I was very open to finecast at the beginning, but I will not put myself through that when my friend can cast resin without all these problems. Not to mention forgeworld for the most part, and many other game companies.

Resin = no problem
Resin with this many errors = no purchasing of it from me

I'll still happily buy plastic kits, but nothing finecast...

Kanluwen wrote:
1) Lol? Forge World has plenty of issues, as much as I love 'em. I know what I'm in for with a Forge World model, and it's not usually a breeze. I got lucky with my Wight King as it's a simple model and required basically no work.

2) And I really think that people are forgetting how long it would take in some cases fixing metal models. I remember a good 3-4 hours working on some kits.

3) And 8 times for what problems? Several he's said he could have fixed himself, but he didn't want to. We only saw what though, three of those models?

4)But let's face it. People won't accept anything less than a perfectly flawless cast, because apparently advertising slogans are serious business.

As for PR: There's no way they can win in this situation and you very well know it. People are going to throw hissy fits until they have their precious metal models back or unless Finecast is dropped to the prices of metal blisters of Yesteryear.

edited quote for easy of reply..

1) At least on that we agree regarding Forgeworld's spotty QA which has apparently been adopted by GW as a role model. I've gotten flawless models (like my Contemptor dread), minimally flawed and easily fixable models (like my Shaso Rymr), and ones with multiple serious problems (like my Inquisitor Rex).

2) You must have had some really bad luck with metals. I too got 10 Kasrkin right when they came out and had no problems other than minor mold lines (as a part of my over 300 metal model history with GW). I've never spent over 10 minutes doing clean up with any single GW metal model that was ogryn sized or smaller. I had to spend maybe an hour filling some gaps on my 2nd edition metal dreadnought back in early 3rd edition but that was about it.

3) The point is that he shouldn't have to fix problems with the price and advertising of Finecast minis. Another issue is that at some point, it's easy to get frustrated with the little things if you're consistently screwed over on bigger ones. If I have a single small problem with a meal at a restaurant, I generally don't complain. If I get a big one (like waiting 15 minutes longer than the rest of my party and having it arrive cold or arrive on time but majorly wrong), it's natural that I become intolerant of smaller mistakes that may be made in later courses like desert.

4) If you're paying 25-75% more for what is described as a flawless cast in the advertising, then it is indeed reasonable to expect such a cast. At a minimum, I'm expecting the same casting quality as the metal minis that just preceeded Finecast's rollout and I'm not seeing it. As for rolling back prices to earlier THIS year's levels, I think that would indeed help and not be unreasonable (your "yesteryear" hyperbole notwithstanding).

Kanluwen wrote:
And how do you know that metals would have been any better? Did you ever consider it's a problem with the moulds?

Maybe because those finecast made from retro fitted metal moulds were also pretty bad, and much worse than the previously produced metals?

And 8 times for what problems? Several he's said he could have fixed himself, but he didn't want to. We only saw what though, three of those models?

But let's face it. People won't accept anything less than a perfectly flawless cast, because apparently advertising slogans are serious business.

Why should he have to fix defective products? I think his blog makes it clear that he won't accept anything less than perfect because they cost so much. You're paying a premium for quality, how often in discussions are we told that GW are the porsche of the hobby, that you pay for quality?

How about this, if GW are going to produce gak they should slash the prices accordingly, something more in line with they rougher end of the market.

Other resin manufacturers churn out resin kits without these problems. There's no excuse at their prices.

For us as consumers to expect a flawless product is just unreasonable. And Games Workshop does an excellent job with replacements when there is an issue. However, it's the consistency of the issues that is a huge problem and has the potential to push a lot of consumers away from the product. Also as was mentioned earlier, this is a person who paints and models at a Golden Demon level, he is seeking as near a perfect mould and won't accept flaws that your average gamer may consider acceptable. My concern and resistance to purchasing Finecast up to this point is that I am not that skilled. I lack the ability to go back and fix bubbles and miscasts the same way as others may be able to do, as do many of us. I'm happy to go back and patch a few issues, but I do not want to invest my time fixing something that shouldn't be broken especially to this scale. Metal wasn't perfect, there were miscasts, extra bits of metal here and there, but nothing to the scale of Finecast. Where I used to work, this level of problem would have be cause for a major recall, but I worked in the medical device industry so people's health was at issue. The parallel is still relevant though because a company with this much experience in producing high quality miniatures and is the industry leader, they have to do better. I will be holding off any major investment into finecast until that time. Hopefully they get this crap sorted out before 6th edition and the new Chaos Codexes and models are launched (fingers crossed).

jbunny wrote:

But if people buy the subpar items, and demand the company replace them for free, then the company will have to either fix the problem or find a better solution. Sometimes buying bad items "fixes" the problem faster than not buying the items.

That's the biggest case of stockholm syndrome I've heard.

What you describe is exactly the kind of bad reasoning that companies that put out bad products want you to use. The reality is, most people do not want to waste their time getting a replacement, so they'll end up getting stuck with the crappy thing they bought. With rationales like yours, that kind of thinking is what helps keep snake oil salesmen in business.

Barring that, people should actively avoid buying a product that is known to be flawed, such as finecast stuff, and it is the low sales that should prompt a company to improve their product.

Vertrucio wrote:

jbunny wrote:

But if people buy the subpar items, and demand the company replace them for free, then the company will have to either fix the problem or find a better solution. Sometimes buying bad items "fixes" the problem faster than not buying the items.

That's the biggest case of stockholm syndrome I've heard.

What you describe is exactly the kind of bad reasoning that companies that put out bad products want you to use. The reality is, most people do not want to waste their time getting a replacement, so they'll end up getting stuck with the crappy thing they bought. With rationales like yours, that kind of thinking is what helps keep snake oil salesmen in business.

Barring that, people should actively avoid buying a product that is known to be flawed, such as finecast stuff, and it is the low sales that should prompt a company to improve their product.

A combination of purchasing faulty product and actively complaining about it coupled with low sales will actually have a bigger effect than just one or the other. If GW sees the sheer volume of replacements that they have to dole out for less actual sales, they will be forced to do something more quickly. Mind you, the price increases may have this replacement cost issue included in the rationale there.

@ someone with a business/finance degree:

Where would the added cost of finecast replacement appear on the next shareholder statement? Would it increase operating costs or somesuch and then just decrease profit? Obviously, the increase cost of finecast and increase in the per unit cost would be in the sales figure for the 6 month period. I'm curious to see how stronglyt the best EVAR! finecast quality claim will be reflected in the next report.