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They can however assault 16" and then shoot if the combat is finished. As they have relentless they can Sustained Fire any Rapid Fire weapons out to 18".

Eldar Jetbikes are essentially M10.

Warbikes aren't too bad off either, with a 4+ cover save as standard.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote: Huh. Yeah, bikes aren't lookin' too hot though the standoff eldar troop bikes with their shurikan canons are lookinga bit better by most counts

No, they still look like expensive poo.

They're not a very expensive mobile anti infantry platform with pretty good range. In squads of 3 they're very easy to hide with LOS blocking terrrain and can fire down light transports with good odds. They were fragile to fire before and this helps a bit with that.

My only issue is that is pretty much makes models such as powerfist sergeant or powerklaw nob a nonissue for a lot of armies as they can be picked out before they ever get to swing, as they don't have their own armour group.

Redemption wrote:My only issue is that is pretty much makes models such as powerfist sergeant or powerklaw nob a nonissue for a lot of armies as they can be picked out before they ever get to swing, as they don't have their own armour group.

Nobs can take 'eavy armor -- giving him his own armor group

(shouldn't orks be referred to as an it, as they reproduce via spores)

Ah, I suppose that helps Orks at least, but it still leaves Powerfist Sergeants in the cold.

Redemption wrote:Ah, I suppose that helps Orks at least, but it still leaves Powerfist Sergeants in the cold.

NSFW!!
This is the ork talking to the marine

Redemption wrote:My only issue is that is pretty much makes models such as powerfist sergeant or powerklaw nob a nonissue for a lot of armies as they can be picked out before they ever get to swing, as they don't have their own armour group.

Don't put your powerfist wielding sergeant in the front row than? Use that 3' attack radius, they can't direct target you in the back row, or just avoid being near that squad leader in CC.

As for fire outside of combat, just try to avoid MSU'ing and putting the wounds on the other 9 first.

As for directed fire outside of that, snipers are going to be deadly in this regard, as is anyone who can roll a buncha 6's. Though they only get one directed fire shot...Of course in this case, you can always put a small unit in front to provide cover saves.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Redemption wrote:My only issue is that is pretty much makes models such as powerfist sergeant or powerklaw nob a nonissue for a lot of armies as they can be picked out before they ever get to swing, as they don't have their own armour group.

Don't put your powerfist wielding sergeant in the front row than? Use that 3' attack radius, they can't direct target you in the back row, or just avoid being near that squad leader in CC..

Directed hits can be allocated to any model in that armour group, so hiding in the back does you no good.

Redemption wrote:Ah, I suppose that helps Orks at least, but it still leaves Powerfist Sergeants in the cold.

Really? You guys are complaining because a weapon more suited for Vehicle and MC combat is countered by the guys you shouldn't be using them against?

This rule set is all about give and take. PF are strong against Vehicles and MCs, and are weak against smaller faster targets. Sounds right to me.

I forget, can't sargeants take a combat shield, which would give them a 6++ save and make them their own armor group?

Redemption wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Redemption wrote:My only issue is that is pretty much makes models such as powerfist sergeant or powerklaw nob a nonissue for a lot of armies as they can be picked out before they ever get to swing, as they don't have their own armour group.

Don't put your powerfist wielding sergeant in the front row than? Use that 3' attack radius, they can't direct target you in the back row, or just avoid being near that squad leader in CC..

Directed hits can be allocated to any model in that armour group, so hiding in the back does you no good.

Well..Try fighting a squad that uses a course, or two handed weapon than? So they cannot direct their hits. (Powerklaw nobz come to mind)

They also can't direct hits done with a basic weapon, as it counts as two handed as well.

I forget, can't sargeants take a combat shield, which would give them a 6++ save and make them their own armor group?

Actually yes, they give this example in the ruleset as well for armour saves.

Vanilla marines, BA, and DA can slap combat shields on their assault squad sgts, BT can put storm shields on them. SW can take storm shields on their wolf guard and insert them into the squad. Use scout snipers for your troops to knock out special weapons and sgts/squad leaders on the other side. Maybe not ideal, but you can get around the problem. I wouldn't fret too much. If this is a preview of what 6th is going to look like, GW won't leave their precious marines sucking wind for very long.

I keep seeing that flamers are now awesome - why is that? I see that they can blast through fire points in vehicles which is really handy but is that the only buff they get?

Also, I've seen a few mentions about Vulkan lists getting better - again, why? OK, flamers are meant to be better but Thunder hammers won't ID T4 HQs with more than 2 wounds and meltas AP1 isn't quite the same anymore. Buffing these weapons with twin linking is still really nice but what exactly is it in 6th that means a Vulkan list is better than 5th?

ColdSadHungry wrote:I keep seeing that flamers are now awesome - why is that? I see that they can blast through fire points in vehicles which is really handy but is that the only buff they get?

Also, I've seen a few mentions about Vulkan lists getting better - again, why? OK, flamers are meant to be better but Thunder hammers won't ID T4 HQs with more than 2 wounds and meltas AP1 isn't quite the same anymore. Buffing these weapons with twin linking is still really nice but what exactly is it in 6th that means a Vulkan list is better than 5th?

Flamers can be used in CC. They get D6 attacks at their strength and AP.

Shouldn't this make Grots even more important as super cheap screening units? They will count as a screen against directed hits, correct?

Maelstrom808 wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:I keep seeing that flamers are now awesome - why is that? I see that they can blast through fire points in vehicles which is really handy but is that the only buff they get?

Also, I've seen a few mentions about Vulkan lists getting better - again, why? OK, flamers are meant to be better but Thunder hammers won't ID T4 HQs with more than 2 wounds and meltas AP1 isn't quite the same anymore. Buffing these weapons with twin linking is still really nice but what exactly is it in 6th that means a Vulkan list is better than 5th?

Flamers can be used in CC. They get D6 attacks at their strength and AP.

They also get an addition 6" inches if twin-linked

Maelstrom808 wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:I keep seeing that flamers are now awesome - why is that? I see that they can blast through fire points in vehicles which is really handy but is that the only buff they get?

Also, I've seen a few mentions about Vulkan lists getting better - again, why? OK, flamers are meant to be better but Thunder hammers won't ID T4 HQs with more than 2 wounds and meltas AP1 isn't quite the same anymore. Buffing these weapons with twin linking is still really nice but what exactly is it in 6th that means a Vulkan list is better than 5th?

Flamers can be used in CC. They get D6 attacks at their strength and AP.

and Auto hit.

Luke_Prowler wrote:
They also get an addition 6" inches if twin-linked

Hell all template weapons have a base 3".

matphat wrote:Shouldn't this make Grots even more important as super cheap screening units? They will count as a screen against directed hits, correct?

Intervening models give a screen against directed hits, yes.

What about GK incinerators? D6, S6, AP4 attacks that auto hit in CC? Surely not.

Also, which page of the PDF is it that gives templates an extra 3"?

RE:Vulkan - mastercrafted weapons in units also get a buff.

Wrath wrote:

Redemption wrote:Ah, I suppose that helps Orks at least, but it still leaves Powerfist Sergeants in the cold.

Really? You guys are complaining because a weapon more suited for Vehicle and MC combat is countered by the guys you shouldn't be using them against?

Uh, it doesn't matter what he's armed with, he's still at worst the third guy dead in his squad (after potentially the heavy and special weapon).

Directed Hits can be generated in nearly every attack sequence if you build you army for it (and you will). It means your Sergeants are dead and you can't ever take any upgrades unless it's for the whole unit.

It's possible this means people will play with entirely un-upgraded armies and rely on only their base gear/stats, but that doesn't seem like it'll fly with the player-base.

3rd edition sort of worked this way, but only in assault. No one ever upgraded anything on sergeant style characters then, since they were the first ones to die in assault. These rules allow it to be done from much further away, at lower risk, and against absolutely any upgrade. It's game-breaking.

Wrath wrote:

Redemption wrote:Ah, I suppose that helps Orks at least, but it still leaves Powerfist Sergeants in the cold.

Really? You guys are complaining because a weapon more suited for Vehicle and MC combat is countered by the guys you shouldn't be using them against?

This rule set is all about give and take. PF are strong against Vehicles and MCs, and are weak against smaller faster targets. Sounds right to me.

I'm not complaining. Heck, I don't even play Orks or Space Marines.

But the same applies to a Wolf Guard with Wolf Claws, which are also Coarse weapons that can't use Directed Hits, but can be sniped out themselves. Or basically for any sort of squad leader or special weapon wielder that isn't a seperate armour group.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Wrath wrote:

Redemption wrote:Ah, I suppose that helps Orks at least, but it still leaves Powerfist Sergeants in the cold.

Really? You guys are complaining because a weapon more suited for Vehicle and MC combat is countered by the guys you shouldn't be using them against?

Uh, it doesn't matter what he's armed with, he's still at worst the third guy dead in his squad (after potentially the heavy and special weapon).

Directed Hits can be generated in nearly every attack sequence if you build you army for it (and you will). It means your Sergeants are dead and you can't ever take any upgrades unless it's for the whole unit.

It's possible this means people will play with entirely un-upgraded armies and rely on only their base gear/stats, but that doesn't seem like it'll fly with the player-base.

3rd edition sort of worked this way, but only in assault. No one ever upgraded anything on sergeant style characters then, since they were the first ones to die in assault. These rules allow it to be done from much further away, at lower risk, and against absolutely any upgrade. It's game-breaking.

You'd need to be fighting snipers or an enemy with One directed shot upon getting 3 6's with covering fire.

And both can be stopped by using an intervening unit. Melee is a bit harder on them, but still, most weapons that really would do damage to a marine leader would be coarse weapons to begin with, lack of directed hits.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Also, which page of the PDF is it that gives templates an extra 3"?

It's in the TEMPLATES rules. Page 83. It's the rules about templates.

Also bear in mind that Characters only get Directed Hits if they are within point blank (12") or assault, so you won't see much of them at range.

Also remember that directed hits are chosen after saves are taken, and a character's hits are rolled separately.
So the chance of a unit leader/IC of sniping a particular model is small.

Obviously only seeing how it will play out in actual games will show if it becomes a regular feature of most games, but I can't see it being a game breaker, rather a situational tactic.

Did I read right in that PDF, that Marines are now a 2+ sv???

Puscifer wrote:Did I read right in that PDF, that Marines are now a 2+ sv???

Typo, in the next paragraph it says 3+. Also says chaos power armor is 3+ later too.

Shuma:

You realize that you are complaining about a codex that almost everyone universally agreed was hideously underpowered when it came out, right? I mean, c'mon. Tyranids got shafted hard with their new codex. I can't believe a Space Marine player is complaining about Tyranids being overpowered...

If this new edition buffs Tyranids in any way, shape, or form then I am very happy for them. Because, as of right now, they are borderline unplayable.

Dribble Joy wrote:
Also remember that directed hits are chosen after saves are taken, and a character's hits are rolled separately.

Not if he has the same armor.

ph34r wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:Also, which page of the PDF is it that gives templates an extra 3"?

It's in the TEMPLATES rules. Page 83. It's the rules about templates.

But you only get the 3" if no range is specified. Under flamers, the range is specified as 'template' so surely the range is the range of a template? Don't get me wrong - I'll be clipping some incinerators off my sprues if all this flamer goodness is true - but why is everyone assuming that the range 'template' equates to no range specified? Actually, I can see GW ruling specifically that incinerators don't count as flamers for these purposes.