Definitely Not a Leaked 6th Rulebook, Don't Even Bother Looking

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**Kingsley**

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm looking at that vs none. Scoring matches are a very uphill battle with codex marines, I'm going to have to hope I can outplay for KPs and use OPs as a bonus. I'm not under many illusions that it's getting easier for me in sixth, I'm just not going to fool myself into the belief that the tac unit is getting anything but worse in this ruleset (the heavy weapon rules and non transport scoring are very painful to a unit that basically lives in its metal box and prays late game).

Scoring matches are VERY advantageous for Tactical Marines, especially compared to Grey Hunters, any Grey Knight unit, or Blood Angel Assault Squads. Tactical Marines can use Combat Squads to have a small heavy weapon detachment snipe at vehicles and score backfield objectives while the other half of the squad brings up the special weapons in a Rhino or Razorback (which can now move and fire its lascannon and twin-linked plasma). No other Marine unit can do this, except for scoring Sternguard (also only in Codex: SM) and I suppose Deathwing Terminators, who are extremely expensive for such duties.

If you're worried about being overrun by fast assault units, take Thunderfire Cannons and use the entangling rounds (which have now been vastly buffed both in damage and secondary effect) to slow your opponent's units. That horde is a lot less scary when they lose the ability to run and lose a sixth of their guys every time they move-- this alone should buy you a turn or two of additional shooting.

**Altruizine**

ShumaGorath wrote:
They'll probably maul the horm squad after they've mauled the tac squad. The problem with this theory is that first of all, standard marine assault squads are actually pretty bad. They have 2 attacks in close combat which is bad for the cost and they're paying for mobility that they aren't using. Once they break that horm squad (which isn't unlikely) they'll be standing there prone for a charge from another horm squad (or genestealers which would be a good followup since they're a turn 3 assaulter and are far more damaging).

By my count your Hall-Powerful 180x Hormagaunt Harmy of Hannihilation has thus far received support from The Doom of Malantai, a Mawloc, one or more of a Tyrant/Trygon/Carnifex, and now Genestealers. I may even have missed something else. How big of a game are we talking about here, and how come your lone 10 man tac squad has agreed to take on an entire Hive Fleet by itself? I guess sometimes you're better off knowing some fear...

**ShumaGorath**

Altruizine wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
They'll probably maul the horm squad after they've mauled the tac squad. The problem with this theory is that first of all, standard marine assault squads are actually pretty bad. They have 2 attacks in close combat which is bad for the cost and they're paying for mobility that they aren't using. Once they break that horm squad (which isn't unlikely) they'll be standing there prone for a charge from another horm squad (or genestealers which would be a good followup since they're a turn 3 assaulter and are far more damaging).

By my count your Hall-Powerful 180x Hormagaunt Harmy of Hannihilation has thus far received support from The Doom of Malantai, a Mawloc, one or more of a Tyrant/Trygon/Carnifex, and now Genestealers. I may even have missed something else. How big of a game are we talking about here, and how come your lone 10 man tac squad has agreed to take on an entire Hive Fleet by itself? I guess sometimes you're better off knowing some fear...

Nah, just the doom and mawloch. The rest is "whatever they spend the remaining 4-6 hundred points on". The dooms like 135 with his space potato and mawlochs aren't too expensive either. I've been thinking mostly in the 1850-2000 range. 180 poisoned horms is 1440 which gives 560 left in 2000 or 410 in 1850. Honestly a smart player would probably just bring 120 and mix in stealers or other support units. They'll just get stuck in the pass at 180 and have to "wait their turn". 120 is more then enough to buffer in heavier assault elements and gouge most of a codex marine army anyway.

**Dribble Joy**

180 horms, like 180 boyz, is actually quite easy to deal with if you know what you are doing.

My army isn't exactly a normal list, but I could wade through twice that number in six turns.

**DarknessEternal**

ShumaGorath wrote:The dooms like 135 with his space potato

Doom is not worth much in 6th. If he Pods next to people, he'll be killed by defensive fire before Spirit Leech can go. If he's walking, same.

Here's another funny fact that can't last: Every unit is lead by a squad leader. Every squad leader has directed hits in assault and with shooting within 12".

Carnifexes are units. Trygons are units. Dreadnoughts are units. Heck, Land Raiders are units. Everything's a sniper.

**Illumini**

So you want hormagaunts to be horribly nerfed and useless like they are today?

If these new rules make nids into the swarm army supported by other stuff it has always been described as in fluff, I call that a huge win. Nids have never played as "advertised". In 4th, we had nidzilla. 5th got a little better, but not by much, now we have stealerspam. 6th sounds like it could make many more lists viable, and I would seriously love seeing the horde nid powerbuild across from my poor outnumbered guardsmen/marines for the pure cinematic effect.

Doom is very powerful with these rules, no doubt (probably borderline broken), but he is not the auto-answer to everything. There are ways to lessen the impact he has somewhat.

What does your list actually look like? You seem to be shooting down every unit offered. What units do you actually use?

**enfernux**

ShumaGorath wrote:
They'll probably maul the horm squad after they've mauled the tac squad. The problem with this theory is that first of all, standard marine assault squads are actually pretty bad. They have 2 attacks in close combat which is bad for the cost and they're paying for mobility that they aren't using. Once they break that horm squad (which isn't unlikely) they'll be standing there prone for a charge from another horm squad (or genestealers which would be a good followup since they're a turn 3 assaulter and are far more damaging).

The main problem with any scenario like this is that standard marines aren't particularly efficient for cost in either shooting or CC and when they're getting hit by dedicated CC units before they can employ their shooting they start to have major problems with recouping costs. The castle is an attrition formation designed around trading positively point for point by using ablative squads and firing to max effectiveness. The formation works almost the same in this edition as it used to, the enemy just reaches it a turn sooner which cuts out between 33% and 50% of the time it has to actually use its guns before it starts taking heavy losses.

Necrons can still work the castle tremendously well in the new edition thanks to their ability to suddenly re-position late game for objectives. Marines have neither the resilience or maneuverability 'crons have though

you think Tac marines are the ones in trouble so far?? Tau Firewarriors ring a bell? ws2, bs3? 10 tacmarines in a transport cost ~210 and their relativly good. Relativly. as in tau fw in transport, build ut to the max of the squads strength almost the same, and a tac squad just wipes em off the board.

**ShumaGorath**

DarknessEternal wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:The dooms like 135 with his space potato

Doom is not worth much in 6th. If he Pods next to people, he'll be killed by defensive fire before Spirit Leech can go. If he's walking, same.

Here's another funny fact that can't last: Every unit is lead by a squad leader. Every squad leader has directed hits in assault and with shooting within 12".

Carnifexes are units. Trygons are units. Dreadnoughts are units. Heck, Land Raiders are units. Everything's a sniper.

You can't defensive fire the potato. It's got he same rules the drop pod does.

180 horms, like 180 boyz, is actually quite easy to deal with if you know what you are doing.

They won't be the same when one of them has a 21 inch charge range. Boyz are solidly a third turn assault, horms are solidly two. Thats is a major difference in this ruleset.

So you want hormagaunts to be horribly nerfed and useless like they are today?

This is why this conversation is awful.

**Dribble Joy**

DarknessEternal wrote:Here's another funny fact that can't last: Every unit is lead by a squad leader. Every squad leader has directed hits in assault and with shooting within 12".

Carnifexes are units. Trygons are units. Dreadnoughts are units. Heck, Land Raiders are units. Everything's a sniper.

Intriguing. Squadron leaders are not characters, but I can't find anything else that says that any other single model unit is restricted from being a unit leader/character.

I can see this changing though.

ShumaGorath wrote:They won't be the same when one of them has a 21 inch charge range.

They are not Cavalry/Beasts, they are still M6 like normal infantry, plus:

Page 38 - Bounding Leap
Hormagaunts have the Fleet and Bounding Leap
movement special rules, but they cannot use both rules
in the same turn. Decide before declaring the Move
action which rule applies for this movement.

So they can run 16", but only charge 18".

**ShumaGorath**

Make that 18", and only in the turn they charge, they have to run in other turns.

How far do they move with fleet?

**Ovion**

The thing I find funtastic is, whether this is real or not, even if this IS actually a GW creation, it's still early playtesting, so the final release good well look very different yet so, so many people are taking it as fact.

**Tapeworm711**

They move 16" in non-assaulting turns. 18" in the turn they assault. So if they setup on the line, they can assault 2" from your back edge on turn 2.

**DarknessEternal**

Ovion wrote:The thing I find funtastic is, whether this is real or not, even if this IS actually a GW creation, it's still early playtesting, so the final release good well look very different yet so, so many people are taking it as fact.

It's almost already a year old and 6th edition is nowhere in sight. At this point, it's more likely than not a GW produced document, but given that timespan, who knows what it actually means for 6th edition.

**Lord Rogukiel**

I don't want 6th ed to come along. 5th ed is fine imo. 6th ed looks really complicated too...

**Swara**

Lord Rogukiel wrote:I don't want 6th ed to come along. 5th ed is fine imo. 6th ed looks really complicated too...

It does at first, but it plays much more smoothly than 5th.

**Dribble Joy**

Lord Rogukiel wrote:I don't want 6th ed to come along. 5th ed is fine imo. 6th ed looks really complicated too...

You only have to get your head around the (rather simple) way 6th works and it suddenly becomes much easy a game.

As a generalisation, it's all about actions and whether or not a unit can perform them. The special rules then affect how those actions are performed and/or if they can be performed.
This structure makes the basic mechanics of the game much more intuitive than 5th and less ambiguous (in principle).
No longer do you need pages of paragraphs of exceptions and convoluted rules to describe something, each element of the rules is dealt with in it's own little, explicit section.

For example, rather than pages and pages on vehicles, you only need a list of rules that they have (and in many cases, share with a number of units), which you can look up.

Tapeworm711 wrote:They move 16" in non-assaulting turns. 18" in the turn they assault. So if they setup on the line, they can assault 2" from your back edge on turn 2.

Orks can be 4" from the back edge of the table starting from their table edge in two turns (flat out with red paint =21"+7"+16"=44", even if red paint does not work in a similar fashion to fleet that's 41").

As Assault Vehicles, Raiders can get a unit 30" (12"+12"+6") across the table in two turns.

Let's not even talk about DE and IG.

OK, that's not on foot, but it's not like they can't turn up in number.

**Illumini**

Swara wrote:
Lord Rogukiel wrote:I don't want 6th ed to come along. 5th ed is fine imo. 6th ed looks really complicated too...

It does at first, but it plays much more smoothly than 5th.

And faster, and it looks like it allows for much more varied armies.

**labmouse42**

DarknessEternal wrote:Bikes also go from good to awesome.

How do you figure?

What have bikes got now that makes them so awesome?

**ShumaGorath**

labmouse42 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Bikes also go from good to awesome.
How do you figure?

What have bikes got now that makes them so awesome?

A very high evasion score when moving.

**labmouse42**

ShumaGorath wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Bikes also go from good to awesome.
How do you figure?

What have bikes got now that makes them so awesome?

A very high evasion score when moving.

Isn't it just +1? So 1/2 of the MEQ weapons hit instead of 2/3?

**Illumini**

ShumaGorath wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Bikes also go from good to awesome.
How do you figure?

What have bikes got now that makes them so awesome?

A very high evasion score when moving.

That is not enough to make up for all the other losses IMO. Fast close combat was always the bane of bikers, and now, all close combat is fast. Bikes are more resilient to shooting (but lost 3+ coversaves), but less to cc, and the meta that has been good to them with plenty of tanks will probably change drastically. Bikers are probably still playable, but awesome... no

**Dribble Joy**

labmouse42 wrote:Isn't it just +1? So 1/2 of the MEQ weapons hit instead of 2/3?

And their cover save when going flat out is lost.
And their toughness bonus is lost in combat.
And they can't run through cover.

**ShumaGorath**

I thought they had +2 evasion when moving and -2 when still? I was under the impression that they were one harder to hit then a running infantry squad.

**Dribble Joy**

Stationary +1
Massive +1
Jink -1
Swarm -1

That's all there is.

**lonedrow02**

Ovion wrote:The thing I find funtastic is, whether this is real or not, even if this IS actually a GW creation, it's still early playtesting, so the final release good well look very different yet so, so many people are taking it as fact.

Im not so sure there taking it as fact as much as just looking over the possibly" leaked" ruleset we have......what else is their to do untill 6th ed comes out... even if this is a fake( i doubt it) its still fun to mull over....

**ShumaGorath**

Dribble Joy wrote:Stationary +1
Massive +1
Jink -1
Swarm -1

That's all there is.

There's no differentiation between moving and running speeds? Huh. Yeah, bikes aren't lookin' too hot though the standoff eldar troop bikes with their shurikan canons are lookinga bit better by most counts (it makes JSJ less dangerous and since you can't last turn cap anyway the loss of the turbo move save is made redundant).

**DarknessEternal**

labmouse42 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Bikes also go from good to awesome.
How do you figure?

What have bikes got now that makes them so awesome?

Well, for one thing, 3 bikes will fire 3 twin linked bolters and 2 plasma guns at 24" range after moving 8".

That's just one thing.

Of course, that thing is meaningless as long as Directed Hits exist. While we're on the subject, Directed Hits is, by far, the worst rule in this document. It means no unit should ever take any upgrade that doesn't come on every model.

Directed Hits are dirt-easy to achieve and game-wrecking.

**Tapeworm711**

Dribble Joy wrote:Stationary +1
Massive +1
Jink -1
Swarm -1

That's all there is.

To be clear. those are the To-Hit modifiers. The EV modifiers are the inverse of that.

Units are easer to hit while standing still, but the only units that are harder to hit while moving are those with jink.

**DarknessEternal**

ShumaGorath wrote: Huh. Yeah, bikes aren't lookin' too hot though the standoff eldar troop bikes with their shurikan canons are lookinga bit better by most counts

No, they still look like expensive poo.

**Tapeworm711**

DarknessEternal wrote:
labmouse42 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:Bikes also go from good to awesome.
How do you figure?

What have bikes got now that makes them so awesome?

Well, for one thing, 3 bikes will fire 3 twin linked bolters and 2 plasma guns at 24" range after moving 8".

That's just one thing.

Of course, that thing is meaningless as long as Directed Hits exist. While we're on the subject, Directed Hits is, by far, the worst rule in this document. It means no unit should ever take any upgrade that doesn't come on every model.

Directed Hits are dirt-easy to achieve and game-wrecking.

I think that they are much harder to come by than you think. As I read it, its only Snipers, Squad Leaders and Characters. As well as Cover-Fire. This is granted to the squad leaders CC attacks (baring coarse, 2H, ect) as well as its shooting actions that are done at point blank range. (this I think is the confusion, that people think it applies to ALL unit's point blank shots)

Also they are negated by shelled, and intervening units (friend or foe).