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This has come up again and again, so here is a thread for it.

In the dex it says you can take 0-1 Leman Russ. Yet for some reason, Gwar! and co believe that Leman Russ' no longer exist.

Where did they go?

Leman Russ Battle Tank as a Unit DOES NOT EXIST!

The wording in the DH codex is Clear:

The following units may be used...

0-1 Leman Russ Battle Tank

In the Imperial Guard Codex, in the Army List (the place where it has the unit names and costs), you will find:

Leman Russ Squadron

It it that simple. Different name means you cannot take it. Exactly the same as the Sentinels. You cannot take them either. Same as an Armoured Fist Squad, you can't take them either. The only things remaining to a DH/WH force from the IG are the Infantry platoon and 0-1 Rough Rider Squad.

Yes it is harsh, but those are the rules. Rules change. You can argue RaI all you want, but I can then in Turn Argue RaI that Sisters of Battle can Move 12" in a Rhino, Disembark, Shoot Bolters and then Assault, as thats what it was like back then.

I think it is a similar argument/discussion to fabius bile and whether or not he can enhance possessed marines/bikers/etc . On the one hand they are still chaos marines but on the other hand there is only one chaos space marines entry in the codex and bile's rules state he can only take chaos space marines and enhance them. By RAW only the regular trooper can be enhanced, but some stores/groups might allow bikers/etc to be enhanced because they are just regular marines that are riding a bike or slightly mutated so why wouldnt bile be able to enhance them genetically? Classic example of raw v rai and why I think GW should be updating their faq/errata every month or 3 months.

What really matters in the real world outside of these forums is what your particular group of friends/store/tournament allows. For me personally it would not be a big deal to allow you to take a leman russ in your DH army and the latest ard boys tournament allowed it as well according to the other post this argument is taken from, but if your personal store or group of friends plays by exactly what is written they may tell you that you cannot take them. By RAW I would agree that you cannot, but RAW is not all that matters when you play a real game.

I think a lot of arguments in this forum go around and around with one person stating raw and the next person stating rai and just going back and forth for pages and pages. At some point you need to realize that you are going in endless circles where no one "wins" and everyone wastes time and move on.

Where did they go?

The same place that "Imperial Guard Armoured Fist Squad" and "Space Marine Land Speeder Tornado" went, the unit doesn't exist anymore.

No offence, but what 'Ard Boyz or your local Store does is inconsequential. In order for the game to be playable, it needs to have rules. These rules must be followed, otherwise it becomes impossible for someone to walk into a GW and say "Lets play 40k".

Gwar! wrote:No offence, but what 'Ard Boyz or your local Store does is inconsequential. In order for the game to be playable, it needs to have rules. These rules must be followed, otherwise it becomes impossible for someone to walk into a GW and say "Lets play 40k".

Ard boyz matters if you are playing in an ard boyz tournament, which is what I said and meant. My point in that paragraph was that what really matters when you go to play a game is not just the rulebook but what houserules your group/store/club/tournament uses.

They got mysteriously replaced with Leman Russ Battle Tanks, which are obviously not Leman Russ in the same way that Tank Shock is obviously not a Ram . In fact, the Leman Russ Squadron has absolutely no similarities at all the the Leman Russ tank that DH are allowed to take, and assuming they are the same is a heinous form of cheating.

The DH/WH are allowed to take one unit of Leman Russ. Seeing as Leman Russ as a separate doesn't exist any more, they obviously cannot take it.

The designers are all-knowing and always correct. They explicitly renamed LR into LRBT with the express intention of nerfing Inquisitorial forces by denying access to an overpriced tank.

Anything else is speculation on RAI, which we cannot possibly know, and RAI is obviously a synonym for cheating.



/sarcasmoff

And how do you define "Clear RaI"? From your description, I can only assume it is "How the rules used to work", in which case please allow me to take my Free Deep Striking Space Wolf Grey Hunters who can Fire their Bolters then charge you, while I rush my Sisters in their Rhino and disembark, shoot then assault.

Guys, I am getting a sense of "Gwar is an evil prick" here. Look, it is not my fault GW are staffed by Monkeys. They write the rules, not me.

Oh I definitely don't think you're evil. You're like an Inquisitor. They're not evil.... they just stick to the rules and are always right, no matter the severity or context of law breach.

I just find it odd that you can both realise that the rules are written by Monkeys, and then stick to the strictest possible reading of every conflict.

Trasvi wrote:Oh I definitely don't think you're evil. You're like an Inquisitor. They're not evil.... they just stick to the rules and are always right, no matter the severity or context of law breach.

I just find it odd that you can both realise that the rules are written by Monkeys, and then stick to the strictest possible reading of every conflict.

My Main issue here is I get exasperated when people try and use RaI as if it meant anything, or even worse trying to claim RaW says you can, when it is PLAINLY clear that RaW you cannot. They have a Different name, so it is a different unit. Just like the Tornado and Armoured Fist Squads, they just can no longer be taken.

As for the "conflict", there is no conflict. Unfortunate implications yes, but if GW wanted to fix it, they can issue an errata.

TBH I think Gwar is right.

Trasvi wrote:They got mysteriously replaced with Leman Russ Battle Tanks, which are obviously not Leman Russ in the same way that Tank Shock is obviously not a Ram . In fact, the Leman Russ Squadron has absolutely no similarities at all the the Leman Russ tank that DH are allowed to take, and assuming they are the same is a heinous form of cheating.

The DH/WH are allowed to take one unit of Leman Russ. Seeing as Leman Russ as a separate doesn't exist any more, they obviously cannot take it.

The designers are all-knowing and always correct. They explicitly renamed LR into LRBT with the express intention of nerfing Inquisitorial forces by denying access to an overpriced tank.

Anything else is speculation on RAI, which we cannot possibly know, and RAI is obviously a synonym for cheating.



/sarcasmoff

I must say, I love your decision to use one of the most argued issues of 5th edition as though it was a clear cut situation that everyone knows and agrees exactly how it is played...

Alternatively (instead of worrying about the strict interpretations of rules that weren't written with each other in mind) just house rule this with your budies.

If it's not a tournament and it's not for pick up play with a stranger (i.e it's for your gaming group) discuss a solution with them.

Gwar! wrote:My Main issue here is I get exasperated when people try and use RaI as if it meant anything, or even worse trying to claim RaW says you can, when it is PLAINLY clear that RaW you cannot. They have a Different name, so it is a different unit. Just like the Tornado and Armoured Fist Squads, they just can no longer be taken.

As for the "conflict", there is no conflict. Unfortunate implications yes, but if GW wanted to fix it, they can issue an errata.

RAW, it is perfectly clear cut. You cannot take them.

However, In my personal opinion, in GW's monkey written ruleset there are often times where strict RAW needs to be overlooked in favour of a more intuitive interpretation. But that is just me, and I shoot with my Target Locks as well.

Gwar! wrote:
And how do you define "Clear RaI"? From your description, I can only assume it is "How the rules used to work", in which case please allow me to take my Free Deep Striking Space Wolf Grey Hunters who can Fire their Bolters then charge you, while I rush my Sisters in their Rhino and disembark, shoot then assault.

Guys, I am getting a sense of "Gwar is an evil prick" here. Look, it is not my fault GW are staffed by Monkeys. They write the rules, not me.

So many retorts, so little time. Let us suffice to say I do not think Gwar is evil. The rest is on the table.

For the record, equating the "Leman Russ Battle Tank" vs. "Leman Russ Squadron" to "Free Deep Striking Space Wolf Grey Hunters who can Fire their Bolters then charge you, while I rush my Sisters in their Rhino and disembark, shoot then assault" is an incorrect comparison. How? Well, for one thing DH/WH used to be able to take a Leman Russ and now that the unit name slightly changed you assert they cannot. To my knowledge Grey Wolf Hunters have never been without points cost, have never been able to deep strike, have never been able to fire a Rapid Fire weapon and assault the same turn, nor have Sisters ever been able to bypass the Assault Vehicle rule. I can show precedent that WH/DH can take a Leman Russ. You cannot show precedent that your Space Wolves should be free.

In short, we *CAN* know the intent of the Codex authors to allow us to take a Leman Russ Battle Tank. The Codex allowed it. To assume (and that's what you are doing when you do this) that since the IG Codex changed that they no longer intend you to be able to do that is preposterous. The more likely scenario is the Codex authors assumed most *REASONABLE* adults would understand that a Leman Russ is still a Leman Russ and that you can have one.

I will however concede that GW is staffed by Monkeys.

The Green Git wrote:To my knowledge Grey Wolf Hunters have never been without points cost, have never been able to deep strike, have never been able to fire a Rapid Fire weapon and assault the same turn, nor have Sisters ever been able to bypass the Assault Vehicle rule. I can show precedent that WH/DH can take a Leman Russ. You cannot show precedent that your Space Wolves should be free.

<Darth>I find your lack of Faith Disturbing.</Vader>

I point you back to Ye Olde Thirde Edition, where the Space Wolves were able to Deep Strike for Free (so long as EVERYONE did it) and were able to charge afterwards, and even fire their bolters at unit A and Charge Unit B. They could even, along with Sisters of battle from the 3rd edition WH Codex, Start in a Rhino, Move 12", disembark at the front of the rhino, fire their bolters at unit A and then charge unit B.

Oddly enough, the same thing that stopped this working (Rules updates) stop you taking a Leman Russ.

Therefore, by your definition of Intent (i.e. how it used to work) I should be able to do this now and Sod what the rules say.

The rule says specific things are allowed.
Taking something generally similar is not allowed.

It is funny when people think that nit-picking is worse than making things up.

Or maybe that is just me.

kirsanth wrote:The rule says specific things are allowed.
Taking something generally similar is not allowed.

It is funny when people think that nit-picking is worse than making things up.

Or maybe that is just me.

No, it's me as well, but suddenly I am TFG.
-Shrugs-

@ the OP - Please remember that what is said in these forums will probably have NO bearing on how your LGS and friends play it. If your LGS has a forum site and you really want to know how they feel, ask on that site.

YMDC in dakka is only used to determine RAW - which in some cases make the game unplayable.

FYI - I had the exact same question a few months ago, so I asked my LGS - it was polled to 100% allow the 'Ard Boyz - under the intent that the rules were so out of date. (Only 6 people voted, but that was enough for a decision)

Linky



@ GWAR! - When aren't you TFG? and why is it a bad thing?

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The rule says specific things are allowed.
Taking something generally similar is not allowed.

It is funny when people think that nit-picking is worse than making things up.

Or maybe that is just me.

No, it's me as well, but suddenly I am TFG.
-Shrugs-

Suddenly?

The codex for WH/DH says you can take 0-1 leman russ as a choice, that codex calls it a unit. The specific changes to the ImpG codex do not impact the choice of a Leman Russ as a UNIT in the WH/DH army.

You may take a leman russ. Have a nice day.

Harkainos wrote:YMDC in dakka is only used to determine RAW - which in some cases make the game unplayable.

Since when has not allowing DH/WH to Take Leman Russes equalled "Unplayable"?

@ GWAR! - When aren't you TFG? and why is it a bad thing?

I do my best auld bean!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The codex for WH/DH says you can take 0-1 leman russ as a choice, that codex calls it a unit. The specific changes to the ImpG codex do not impact the choice of a Leman Russ as a UNIT in the WH/DH army.

You may take a leman russ. Have a nice day.

Yes, you may take a Leman Russ. Pray Tell, where in the Imperial Guard codex would I find the Points Costs, Characteristics and Options for this Unit? The DH/WH codex say to look at Codex: Imperial Guard for the "Leman Russ Battle Tank" Unit, but there is no such unit in the Army List. I see a Leman Russ Squadron, with the option to take various kinds of Leman Russes, but there is no Unit Named "Leman Russ Battle Tank". As such, I logically conclude that, because said unit does not appear in the Codex we are told to reference, that a DH/WH Army may not take this unit, similar to Armoured Fist Squads and Land Speeder Tornados.

There is always the argument about false accuracy in GW rules writing. If you look at the rules strictly based on their text, and not on their meaning, you get a different result than if you look at the meaning.

In this example, the rules as interpreted literally are clear: you can take up to one LRBT unit, and with no such unit available the option becomes null.

OTOH, it doesn't take a call to miss cleo to figure out what those rules actually mean: a Witchhunter player can take a damn LRBT. The LRBT is still available, it's still a valid choice, and the meaning of the RAW is preserved.

BTW Gwar, this is where you run into problems. Not because you think you're correct, but because you think you're solution is the only one that can be correct.

Harkainos wrote:YMDC in dakka is only used to determine RAW - which in some cases make the game unplayable.

This really isn't true at all, a bunch of people decided it's only about RAW, and it's true that it's the only thing worth discussing, since RAI is just "I feel" which while relevant doesn't lend to informative rules debates.

But if you go back and look at the YMDC threads posted by yak (we haven't seen one in a while) you will see that it's equally valid to gather numerical evidence of how people choose to play the game given a prior knowledge that how they play may not be RAW.

I suppose this is just me knitpicking, and I'm not about to start arguing "but RAI is" against things, but if almost everyone in the world plays a certain way which doesn't line up with the RAW, it certainly warrants a footnote.

Polonius wrote:BTW Gwar, this is where you run into problems. Not because you think you're correct, but because you think you're solution is the only one that can be correct.

Oddly, this is because my solution always follows the rules and doesn't make up random rules to please the RaI crowd. As such, my solutions are inherently the correct ones.

RAW doesn't make the game unplayable, any more than house rules do. RAW is simply the process of determining what the rules actually say, not what the rules meant to say.

the problem you run into is that there are seldom only one way to parse a sentence or read a word, and even RAW can have multiple possibilities.

RAI isn't always impossible to determine either. The infamous terminators w/o terminator armor debate showed that, as did the Shoota Boy nob with powerklaw debate. It's often pretty clear what the author intended, and when there are two RAW interpretations, one of which meshes with the RAI, I tend to give it the most weight.

Polonius wrote:The problem you run into is that there are seldom only one way to parse a sentence or read a word, and even RAW can have multiple possibilities.

This problem is not as widespread as you make it out to be. Yes there are some issues, but by and large there are not that many "game breakers" as it were.

It's often pretty clear what the author intended, and when there are two RAW interpretations, one of which meshes with the RAI, I tend to give it the most weight.

This is where you and I differ in opinion. It is "pretty clear" to people whenever they want to gain an advantage and "muddy" when they wish to negate a downside. In my view, what the Writers actually write (Plus any subsequent Erratas) are exactly what the authors intended to do. If it was not, they would have issued an errata to fix it.

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:BTW Gwar, this is where you run into problems. Not because you think you're correct, but because you think you're solution is the only one that can be correct.

Oddly, this is because my solution always follows the rules and doesn't make up random rules to please the RaI crowd. As such, my solutions are inherently the correct ones.

Ah, good old arrogant Gwar. Not every stretch or bend of the rules is random, and they're not all made up. The WH rules allow an LRBT to be bought out of the the IG codex, the IG codex still allows a Leman Russ squadron built around a single LRBT, I fail to see how this is a made up random rule. The rules allow it, and you're allowing a few words like "unit" to get in the way of what's really not a difficult work around. Assuming that the most important part of GW's rules are the qualifiers and operators like "unit", and not the actual, you know, rules, is missing the point.

Now, for things like Armored fists = Veterans, I think that's way too far of a stretch under RAW.

Gwar! wrote:

Harkainos wrote:YMDC in dakka is only used to determine RAW - which in some cases make the game unplayable.

Since when has not allowing DH/WH to Take Leman Russes equalled "Unplayable"?

LOL - 'some cases' may or may not include this instance.

I did (for this instance) test it using the 'Yay' rules and the 'Nay' rules..... 'Nay' rules is probably nastier, considering the army model count jumped from 55 to 109, with a lot more vehicles and melta weapons.

My personal taste is to have at least 1 armor 14 vehicle (for added flavor, and I really don't want to paint 109 models)

Polonius wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Polonius wrote:BTW Gwar, this is where you run into problems. Not because you think you're correct, but because you think you're solution is the only one that can be correct.

Oddly, this is because my solution always follows the rules and doesn't make up random rules to please the RaI crowd. As such, my solutions are inherently the correct ones.

Ah, good old arrogant Gwar. Not every stretch or bend of the rules is random, and they're not all made up. The WH rules allow an LRBT to be bought out of the the IG codex, the IG codex still allows a Leman Russ squadron built around a single LRBT, I fail to see how this is a made up random rule. The rules allow it, and you're allowing a few words like "unit" to get in the way of what's really not a difficult work around. Assuming that the most important part of GW's rules are the qualifiers and operators like "unit", and not the actual, you know, rules, is missing the point.

Now, for things like Armoured fists = Veterans, I think that's way too far of a stretch under RAW.

A Leman Russ Squadron is no more a Leman Russ Battle Tank than a Bolter is a Storm Bolter.
Interesting fact: If you take a Leman Russ Squadron of 1 Model, it's unit name (drum-roll please) Remains Leman Russ Squadron, and in fact follows the squadron rules until it is fired upon, even if it starts the game as a single model.

So, no, a LRBT cannot be bought in a IG army, nor is it a Unit in an Codex: IG, and therefore cannot be bought by WH/DH Armies.

Furthermore, your blatant personal attack (Calling me Arrogant) is unwarranted and not permitted. I am not arrogant. Arrogance implies I am wrong a lot but think I am right, whereas I am actually right pretty much 100% of the time, because I rigidly stick to rules that can be cited and backed up, rather than making up rules to play along with RaI.