Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So Deathshroud can soak wounds for Mortarion. Hell yes

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So Deathshroud can soak wounds for Mortarion. Hell yes

But they only move 4" so good luck keeping them within 3".

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So Deathshroud can soak wounds for Mortarion. Hell yes

Yup. They are like Lychguard, they can take wounds meant for characters near them.

 mrhappyface wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So Deathshroud can soak wounds for Mortarion. Hell yes

But they only move 4" so good luck keeping them within 3".

I'm pretty sure they'll be able to Deep Strike. Problem solved.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So Deathshroud can soak wounds for Mortarion. Hell yes

But they only move 4" so good luck keeping them within 3".

I'm pretty sure they'll be able to Deep Strike. Problem solved.

They will, doesn't help if people are predicting Morty is gonna drop turn 1 before they deep strike in.

Keep one unit near morty, one in reserve.
Morty survives T1,
Morty moves up (double, warptime) to join the second deepstriking unit to soak turn 2.
Following turn warptime the first unit to get them into position .

I just realized DG may actually be the first army where a brigade is the smart choice. Well... isn't an awful choice at least.

PM/poxwalkers fill troops, the new haulers look excellent as fast attack, elites is saturated with choices, and the new tank looks like it'll actually cost less than a quad las predator with its most expensive options.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Keep one unit near morty, one in reserve.
Morty survives T1,
Morty moves up (double, warptime) to join the second deepstriking unit to soak turn 2.
Following turn warptime the first unit to get them into position .

Aye but then that is 500pts for Morty, 400pts for two deathstrikes (one unit which is basically useless after turn 1) and another 100 for a sorcerer. You've already spent 1000pts on keeping Morty alive.

#worth it
On paper the deathshroud should pull thier weight too.

Ok, so how does this look:

Nurgle Daemons Battalion
Epidemius
Herald of Nurgle: Virulent Blessing
Nurglings
Nurglings
Plaguebearers, or MOAR NURGLINGS

Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion Speartip
Jump Pack Lord: MoK, combi melta, MURDER SWORD
Nurgle Obliterators
Nurgle Obliterators
Nurgle Obliterators

Death Guard Vanguard
Daemon Prince: Warptime
Surgeon/Tallyman, depending on how they compare
Blightbringer
20 Possessed

Death Guard Battalion
Plaguecaster/Typhus: putrefaction, vitality
Sorcerer: Miasma, Prescience
Plague Marines
Poxwalkers
Cultists
Rhino

Extras: Defilers, Bloat Drones, Heldrakes

I'm looking at my DI stuff and thinking this isn't difficult to build up to.

Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion drop in and rack up kills for Epidemius, alongside the Daemon engines. Lord is a flexible scarecrow, very few warlords want to go near a potential 8 MWs. Nurgle Daemons and Plague Marines hold the line. Poxwalkers follow the self-evident Death Star, benefitting from Typhus and preventing deepstrikers from landing behind it and assassinating characters. Bloat Drones and Heldrakes help the Possessed troll with Cloud of Flies. Cultists get positioned to be a tempting target, then recycled. Come second turn's fight phase there should be a pretty nasty tide hitting the enemy lines, with mobile elements able to respond to their own deep insertion force. There's an argument to Warptime Typhus if he dragged his feet when the Possessed ran full tilt.

SilverAlien wrote:
I just realized DG may actually be the first army where a brigade is the smart choice. Well... isn't an awful choice at least.

PM/poxwalkers fill troops, the new haulers look excellent as fast attack, elites is saturated with choices, and the new tank looks like it'll actually cost less than a quad las predator with its most expensive options.

What's hilarious is I've attempted a Brigade with Alpha Legion and I'm always shocked by how expensive things get when you add them all up.

I've been playing a brigade with alpha legion and I usually find I can get good size units and lots of upgrades as long as I'm willing to sacrifice a couple slots to something like single chaos spawn.

Like most people here, I am using some multi-legion list or another... not quite Chaos Soup, but several legions across detachments for effect, or specific purpose. A staple has always been some center-piece like Magnus, who supported does incredible work.

Looking at Mortarion's rules, I suspect a LOT of Chaos armies will be fielding him even in armies with nothing-else Deathguard in sight?

Perhaps, but I imagine he'll tend to be accompanied by some of those Terminators who can tank for him.

Hmm. Will that mean you roll to hit and wound against Morty, he makes his saves and DR, and then the termie takes a MW against which it can also DR?

That'd be some extreme durability, the likes of which Swarmlord and Guilliman can but dream of...

Did something tonight I haven't done in ages. I took Chaos bikers.

I single minimum squad with plasma and a combi-plasma. Ended up playing Necrons and they easily pulled their weight. A good screen for the Daemon Prince with wings and a great target for all sorts of stratagems.

I feel like I keep trying new things I haven't used in years in the codex and they keep performing really well.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Perhaps, but I imagine he'll tend to be accompanied by some of those Terminators who can tank for him.

Hmm. Will that mean you roll to hit and wound against Morty, he makes his saves and DR, and then the termie takes a MW against which it can also DR?

That'd be some extreme durability, the likes of which Swarmlord and Guilliman can but dream of...

It seems to trigger on hits, so when a char within 3" of a deathshroud is hit on a 2+ the deathshroud unit takes the hit instead. For 225 points for 3 I'm not finding them terribly compelling, deepstriking to protect Mortarion seems ok but at move 4 if I feel I must deploy them T1 for protection...well....ugh.

Mazzyx wrote:
Did something tonight I haven't done in ages. I took Chaos bikers.

I single minimum squad with plasma and a combi-plasma. Ended up playing Necrons and they easily pulled their weight. A good screen for the Daemon Prince with wings and a great target for all sorts of stratagems.

I feel like I keep trying new things I haven't used in years in the codex and they keep performing really well.

Yeah, internal balance seems to be better with the three Codices released barring few exceptions here and there. Death Guard is looking to be solid too so I'm hoping for the best for AdMech next because lord knows they need it real bad.

After getting back into 40k recently, having previously left as 3rd edition came to a close, I got a chance to play my first game of 8th, and I thought I'd share with you my thoughts, as well as ask for advice.

The Lists
So my list was as follows:
Alpha Legion: Battalion + Vanguard (2000pt, 7CP)
1x DP w/ Wings: MoS, Intoxicating Elixir, Malefic Talons (w/ Death Hex)
1x Chaos Lord: MoS, Power Axe, Combi-Plasma
1x Sorcerer: MoS, Jump Pack, Force Sword (w/ Warp Time + Prescience)
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
6x Chosen: MoS, 1x Combi-Plasma, 5x Plasma (in Land Raider)
5x Terminators: MoS, Icon, 5x Combi-Plasma, 3x Power Axe, 2x Power Fist
8x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powerfist, 1x Plasma Pistol, 7x Chain Axe + Chain Sword
8x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powerfist, 1x Plasma Pistol, 7x Chain Axe + Chain Sword
5x Havocs: 4x Lascannon
1x Land Raider
1x Helldrake: Baleflamer

His List (and I'm sorry I can only remember units, rather than wargear:
1x Bjorn the Fell-Hand
5x Wolf Guard: 5x Combi-Bolter in Razorback w/ (gun that did like 12 shots a turn)
5x Wolf Guard: 5x Combi-Bolter in Razorback w/ (gun that did like 12 shots a turn)
2x Venerable Dreadnaughts: w/ Storm Shields
5x Wulfen: 3x Storm Shield, 2x Other (in Stormfang)
1x Sicarin
1x Stormfang Gunship
5x Long Fangs: 4x Lascannon

The Game
Set Up:
So set up was fighting up to 24" down the short sides of the board, putting us 24" apart. I advance deployed my Berzerkers, one behind his lines, one on the centre objective. I had my cultists in the back field guarding objectives, the Land Raider w/ Chosen + Lord on my right, the DP in the middle, the Heldrake to his left. The Havocs were on a tower in the middle, further back. He deployed his Lord and Dreadnaughts in the centre, the 2 Razorbacks just to their left, his Long Fangs in his tower in the back field, his Sicarin to the left of these, and his Stormfang to their right.

Turn Order:
This actually took quite a while - well, about two minutes. I finished deploying first easily, but we were playing the new rules, so we rolled off. I think we equalled with my +1 about five times, but finally he won. But then I seized the initiative (thank god!)

Chaos Turn 1
Movement: I identified as the main threats for the first turn the Sicarin and the Long Fangs. So I flew my Heldrake right up the centre, leaving them just before the Long Fangs. I then move one squad of Khorne Berzerkers up to the Sicarin, and leave the others in a building on the objective, waiting for him to come closer, confident he couldn't charge me there. Everything else stays still. Not having any good targets, I don't bring in my Terminators + Sorcerer.
Psychic: Nothing in range.
Shooting: I fire all of my lascannons (Havocs and Land Raider) into the Sicarin, bringing it down to 6ish wounds. The Baleflamer from the Heldrake kills two Long Fangs.
Combat: I charge the Long Fangs, they getting no hits, and wipe them out. I charge the Sicarin with my Khorne Berzerker, rolling first for my champion, who alone kills it. It does not blow up.

Space Wolves Turn 1:
Movement: I was hoping to stop his advance, giving me extra time to shoot his stuff, and it mostly works. He moves his Dreadnaughts forward. He disembarks his Wulfen, and sends them and his Lord towards my Heldrake. He disembarks his Wolf Guard in front of my back-line Berzerkers.
Shooting: The Razorbacks and Wolf Guard together finish off my Berzerkers, but it takes all their shots. Bjorn gets my heldrake down to 9 wounds.
Combat: He charges my Heldrake with his Wulfen, who end up killing it. It then explodes (hooray!), which kills off the one Wulfen, and does two damage to Bjorn.

Chaos Turn 2
I appreciate that he killed more in points that me, and I was hoping that my things in his back line would last longer, so now I hope that I can shoot to pieces anything headed towards me. I identify as the main threats his Stormfang and Wulfen.
Movement: I move the Berzerkers towards the Dreadnaught closest to the centre, and my DP towards the other. I also Deep Strike my Terminators, w/ Sorcerer just in front of his Wulfen.
Psychic: I cast Warp Time and Prescience on my Terminators, both of which go off. However, I perils on the Warp Time with a Double 6, which then does 3 wounds to my Sorcerer. Death Hex didn't go off on the dreadnaught.
Shooting: I over-charge my plasma, rapid-firing into the Wulfen, killing the one remaining w/o a storm shield, but he saves the rest. I shoot my Havocs into his Stormfang, reducing it to half health. I fire everything from the Land Raider into one of his Dreadnaughts, which saves everything. This will become a common theme.
Combat: I charge my Terminators into his Wulfen, where he takes one wound. In return they kill two terminators. I charge my Berzerkers into the middle Dreadnaught, and they deal three wounds. My DP manages to deal four wounds to the other Dreadnaught, which does five in return. Lame.

Space Wolves Turn 2
Movement: He disengages and embarks his Wulfen, which then flies down towards my end of the table. Bjorn moves towards my Terminators, and the Wolf Guard and Razorbacks move forward.
Shooting: Bjorn shoots at my Havocs, one of whom dies. The Stormfang fires at my Land Raider, which takes four wounds. I think the Wolf Guard and Razorbacks fire at some cultists, yielding limited results. Sure, cultists die, but they remain on the objectives.
Combat: Bjorn charges my Terminators, killing them all. The middle Dreadnaught finishes off my Berzerkers, taking no wounds in return. He interrupts for my DP, and kills him.

Chaos Turn 3
I should note at this stage that I've been very lucky with objectives, getting ones for all of the objectives I hold, including many bonus points for holding these. So at this stage I'm ahead of him about 10-3. My job now is just to hold off his advance, and hopefully survive before I'm tabled.
Movement: I disembark my Chosen, now finally having a shot at something, although it is the dreadnaughts. Nothing else moves.
Psychic: Prescience on the Havocs flubs.
Shooting: I shoot my havocs into his Stormfang, killing it. However, no Wulfen are killed as they pile out. I shoot everything from my Land Raider into the left dreadnaught. It takes no wounds. I over-charge and rapid-fire my Chosen into the other dreadnaught. It takes no wounds.
Combat: Nothing.

Space Wolves Turn 3:
Movement: He moves everything close to my lines.
Shooting: He shoots all his Razorbacks and Wolf Guard into my cultists, again thinning their number, but not getting them off any objectives. Something kills my Sorcerer. Can't remember what.
Combat: He charges my chosen, wiping them out with that + morale. My Lord heroically intervenes, hitting at the Dreadnaught ... doing no wounds. He charges his Wulfen, making a long charge into my dreadnaught, but does no wounds.

Chaos Turn 4:
At this stage I know I can no longer kill things, so it's just a matter of survival. Thankfully, I keep pulling objective holding for the objectives I have, including one for my cultists on the left, where now nothing in his army is anywhere near. So I just need to survive.
Movement: I retreat the Land Raider.
Shooting: I shoot my pea-shooters from my cultists, which do nothing.
Combat: My Lord attacks the Dreadnaught, dealing no wounds. He is killed in return.

Space Wolves Turn 4:
Here things become less important re: fine grain analysis. He moves everything towards my right flank. He takes out all but one havoc, his Wulfen again charges my Land Raider, doing minimal damage, he finally takes out the last cultist on one objective, and gets the others down, again to one group.

Chaos Turn 5:
I retreat the land raider, and hide the last havoc in the building. The leftmost cultist run the feth away, hoping towards a nearby piece of large terrain.

Space Wolves Turn 5:
He finishes off my Land Raider and the rightmost cultist squad. He whittles down my leftmost cultist squad to three.

Chaos Turn 6:
I am still away ahead in points, and now he's pulling Psychic-related objectives and character killing, so he can't score more. I just need to survive. I fire my last lascannon shot into his Wulfen, finally getting through ... until he gets two 6+ on his FnP. I run my last three cultists heroically behind a line-of-sight blocking terrain.

Space Wolves Turn 6
He finishes off my Havoc, and starts running towards the cultists, which he can't see.

Chaos Turn 7:
The game still does not bloody end! I hide valiantly my last three models behind this rock.

Space Wolves Turn 7:
With a command re-roll, he manages to pull off a 10" charge with his Dreadnaught, on a command point re-roll. He hits three times, but only wounds twice. But he gets the third with a command point re-roll, tabling me.

Reflections
So, in the end it all came down to a series of one-dice rolls. If he didn't get the charge I would have won. If he didn't get the extra wound, I would have won. In that respect it was a close game, but in every other respects his army completely out-shone mine. He had me out-matched in shooting as well as CC. Being so vehicle-heavy, half my shooting (Chosen and Terminators) had few targets worth attacking, so basically did nothing. My anti-vehicle did a fine job finishing off most of his vehicles, but I couldn't crack those Dreadnaughts, with their 3++ save and 5+++ FnP. But my CC was just completely out-classed with his Lord, Wulfen, and Dreadnaughts. I just couldn't get past that 3++. So in terms of the lessons I learnt, I feel that deep-striking my Terminators turn 1 would have been best, even if they were just shooting rhinos. I should have done ... something with my chosen, but they were just completely zoned by the Dreadnaughts. I perhaps should have thought of more interesting ways to use strategems, but with the 3++ saves everywhere I can't really think what I could have done there. I think that more combo-charging, to take out the Dreadnaughts one at a time could have helped.

In terms of units, I was quite unimpressed with the Land Raider. It was really only useful for taking out the two tanks, but another Havoc squad could do that for 200 points cheaper. I found the Heldrake somewhat meh, but it is useful to get to those back line havocs and things. The terminators did very little, even with amazing buffs, but then I think that's just down to my opponent's army.

Advice Requested
So, this guy is my main opponent, and this is basically the army he uses all the time. He's an amazing, but fastidious painter, so he would perhaps add a new unit to his collection once every few months. So at least I know what I'm up against. I was wondering, then, if anyone had any thoughts concerning how I could improve my army against him. Obviously it's a very elite army, so I can do without a lot of dakka (not that I had much anyway). I was thinking then thinking I should go hard-core anti-tank, but so much of it has 3++ saves, or -1 to hit, or 5+++ FnP that it's hard to justify more expensive single-shot guns that will just be stopped dead by the invulnerable save, or mitigated to nothing. Psychic is definitely a weak spot, so I was thinking another another sorcerer, and hope Death Hex comes off. So here are my thoughts on options:
DP: I need to send him after tanks, but it's hard to get him anywhere with 3 invincible dreadnaughts stomping around the field that can kill him quickly. So I don't know whether I should drop him.
Sorcerers: I do think I need another sorcerer, and give one of them Death-Hex. I don't know what other power to take (Prescience and Warp Time being on the other). I'll probably just use him, and a DP, if I take him, for smite.
Dark Apostle: I was thinking of running a Dark Apostle, just to help the Berzerkers. If I can't kill Dreadnaughts with big attacks, perhaps this will just help the death by a thousand pin pricks.
Terminators: Again, I don't know if these guys are worth it, being an elite unit that is just outshined by their elite units.
Berzerkers: I was thinking of cutting them up into 3 groups of 5x, and put them in rhinos, 10x in one, and 5x + Apostle in the other.
Spawn: I don't know if spawn would help as a cheap counter-charge unit that may hold up the dreadnaughts for comparably cheap. But they won't kill anything in this army.
Obliterators: Obliterators seem the best possible addition to me, just because the rate of fire might be useful against the Dreadnaughts, and, if they go high AP, against the tanks too.
Havocs: Dropping the Land Raider I need more Havocs. I was thinking either Missile Launchers, as AP is basically useless against this army. Autocannons are another choice, having higher rate of fire, and 2D can kill a Wolfen per shot. Again, the lack of AP means nothing against this army.

So I'm thinking my next list will look like this:

2000pt Alpha Legion + WE (9CP)
Alpha Legion Battalion:
1x Jump Sorcerer: Force Sword (Warp Time and Prescience) - to deep strike with terminators
1x Jump Sorcerer: Force Sword (Death Hex and Delightful Agonies) - hopefully to eliminate invulnerable saves
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
5x Terminators: MoS, Icon, 5x Combi-Plasma, 3x Power Axe, 2x Power Fist (I don't know about these guys, but then they can be dropped where I need them. Maybe combi-meltas?)
5x Havocs: Lascannons
5x Havocs: Missile Launchers
1x Heldrake: w/ Baleflamer

World Eater Battalion
1x DP w/ Wings: Talisman of the Burning Blood, Malefic Talons (for 10 attacks on the charge)
1x Dark Apostle
5x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powefist, 4x Chain Axe + Chain Sword
5x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powefist, 4x Chain Axe + Chain Sword
5x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powefist, 4x Chain Axe + Chain Sword
2x Rhinos

What do people think? Help me put these bad dogs down!

Land Raider's main utility over two Havoc or Predator units seems to be getting an attack unit through a deep strike screen. Honestly I'm not sold on it's practicality there yet. Autocannons excel if you face a lot of 2W infantry. Missile launchers... its said they don't outperform two Las + two HB. I did some rough maths last night and I think a krak missile is less effective against a 1W MEQ than a Heavy Bolter, so I think that probably holds true.

If you've got re-rolls from a Lord or Prince, Plasma outshines Melta. Death Hex is definitely a good choice - when it works, it's brutal, and the threat of it forces your opponent to change their plan. Don't forget you can use a CP to make the other Sorcerer suddenly know it thanks to Familiar - that's a really nasty 'gotcha'.

Dark Apostle has great synergy with Zerks. Don't forget your Icons of Wrath!

Zerkers definitely do need rhinos but are almost impossible to stop within them. I think I would probably stick to alpha legion over WE due to the possibility to infiltrate against the right opponent (this guy is the right opponent). Remember though that infiltrate happens after the seize. It sure if you played it that way based on how I read what you did.

Oblits are absolutely worth it. Make sure they have the mark of slaanesh. Fire twice. Veterans of the long war. Profit.

You're correct that the land raider and terminators just aren't really going to pull their weight.

Check out a 40 man cultist squad. The cultist strategems are not to be ignored, especially with an exalted champion and/or a dark Apostle nearby. Teleport them across the board, warptime and profit.

Thanks for the tips, guys. So I'll try a game without the Terminators, and maybe put in some obliterators.

This gives me a hundred to a hundred and fifty points to play with. Any ideas on what else I could put in?

Options include:
Noise Marines
Possessed
Helbrutes
Bikes
Raptors
Warp Talons
Spawn
Plasma Havocs
Heavy Havocs (a third squad)
Predators
Maulerfiends

Against this list, I'm finding it hard to decide.


Also, I will note that infiltrating Berzerkers means no Apostle/Exalted support. As for squad size for this, do people think 5/8/10/15? I'm running 2 squads of 8 at the moment.

It might look something like this:

Battalion, Vanguard, and Spearhead (8CP)
1x DP w/ Wings: Malefic Talons, Intoxicating Elixir
1x Jump Lord: Power Fist, Combi-Plasma
1x Jump Sorcerer: Force Sword (w/ Warp Time and Prescience)
1x Jump Sorcerer: Force Sword (w/ Death Hex and Delightful Agonies)
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
10x Cultists
10x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powerfist, 1x Plasma Pistol, 9x Chain Axe + Chain Sword (to infiltrate)
10x Berzerkers: Icon, 1x Powerfist, 1x Plasma Pistol, 9x Chain Axe + Chain Sword (to infiltrate)
6x Chosen: 1x Combi-Plasma, 5x Plasma Gun
5x Havocs: 4x Lascannon
5x Havocs: 4x Missile Launcher
3x Obliterators
3x Obliterators

Infiltration can work with DA/EC support, don't forget you can conga line and aren't obligated to move full charge & pile in distances. One big squad also uses fewer CP's.

I'm finishing up a twenty-strong Zerk unit for my Word Bearers... I'm going to test drive them with Warptime, but I ideally will cast that on a Dreadclaw or Kharybdis; I think the time is nigh for a Land Raider Spartan. It'll carry the DA & EC with them, to boot, with about 1.3% chance of one of them getting ate.

8 is a good squad size for the zerkers.

I wouldn't do more than 1 squad of oblits.

Noise marines are amazing, though not super impressive against this opponent.

I would drop the chosen and the second squad of oblits to include 10 noise marines and a maulerfiend

Nah, Noise Marines need too much babysitting. Obliterators are the correct choice.

 luke1705 wrote:
8 is a good squad size for the zerkers.

I wouldn't do more than 1 squad of oblits.

Noise marines are amazing, though not super impressive against this opponent.

I would drop the chosen and the second squad of oblits to include 10 noise marines and a maulerfiend

I like the idea of both Noise Marines and a Maulerfiend. I did some numbers, and, as you mention, Noise Marines don't look too good against this Space Wolves list. As for the Maulerfiend, I would love to add one, but I never like running just one vehicle. My view is that if you're going to run vehicles run 3+. Also, I'm not sure how useful a Maulerfiend would be against this invincible Dreadnaughts, wounding them only on 3s with their fists, and 5s on their more plentiful tendril attacks.

I'm leaning towards two groups of Obliterators, but if not Noise Marines then any other options? Are plasma havocs/chosen just not up to scratch?

My regular opponent is Space Wolves and she is rightly feart of my Plasma Chosen. They jump out of a Dreadclaw, with a Sorcerer on Steed and a Prince and supplying Prescience, Warptime (on the Dreadclaw, unless a screening unit means I have to get the Chosen closer to a target), & Death Hex. Pop VOTLW and Eternal Cacophony and it won't just be the false emperor who's a corpse.

Bonus: your Icon of Excess and two attacks each mean that a supporting unit charging you is going to get hurt.

I wonder how deathguard lists will evolve now that the new condex has leaks and we know what the new units are. Gunline focused around the new mortar tank? Advance slowly and steady up the field firing supported by characters and that fast attack new daemon engine? Assault focused with Mortarion, fleshmower bloat drones and plague drones leading the charge with blightlord terminators dropping in to support?

Seems like its better to focus on one aspect than trying to do everything.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, Noise Marines need too much babysitting. Obliterators are the correct choice.

Care to explain that statement? They both hit on 3's, so you'd probably want a lord and to have prescience on them.

My assumption is that you're talking about the relative durability, or that oblits can alpha in without being killed first.

It's true that Noise Marines require a rhino competitively, but the same thing is true for zerkers and I don't know any player who is dismissing them as "needing too much babysitting so I won't take them"

Oblits are a good choice. I'm not saying you shouldn't take them. What I am saying is that there's no reason to take 2 squads of oblits instead of 1 squad of oblits and 1 squad of noise marines. They're good at different things and are both valuable. My issue with 2 oblits and zero noise marine squads is that you can't deal well with hordes at range. Sure you can send in the zerkers but if you do that turn 1, then you're trading a zerker for a couple of conscripts (or whatever chaff screening unit they have). Not usually a winning trade, no matter how many you kill.

And just fyi, there are a lot less units that can deal effectively with the amount of chaff units in the current meta than there are that can kill big things. If I want to kill a knight, Magnus, Mortarion or even a Maulerfiend can go to town. Killing chaff units is less well represented, so if I had to choose one or the other, I'd pick noise marines. They fire 3 times for goodness sake. Twice on your turn and then once on your enemy's turn when they die.

Noise Marines exist to clear chaff. They can, through volume of fire, shoot other things but you should be using them on hordes. Hell, I'm strongly considering tossing 20 in a Kharybdis with my Alphas so I can drop them in, shoot 60 Shots, then double tap them for a total of 120 shots on turn 1 and clear most screens for Zerkers and stuff to walk through and clear house.

 TonyH122 wrote:


I like the idea of both Noise Marines and a Maulerfiend. I did some numbers, and, as you mention, Noise Marines don't look too good against this Space Wolves list. As for the Maulerfiend, I would love to add one, but I never like running just one vehicle. My view is that if you're going to run vehicles run 3+. Also, I'm not sure how useful a Maulerfiend would be against this invincible Dreadnaughts, wounding them only on 3s with their fists, and 5s on their more plentiful tendril attacks.

I'm leaning towards two groups of Obliterators, but if not Noise Marines then any other options? Are plasma havocs/chosen just not up to scratch?

Prescience plus a lord and the noise marines are hitting on 2's, re-rolling 1's. VOTLW and they're wounding other marines on 3's. 30 shots then becomes basically 19 saves on a squad of power armor marines.

Did you want to kill more? Spend 2 CP to do it again.

Does your opponent not want you to do that a second time? Feel free to shoot when he kills you, and you're still prescienced, so that's another 14 saves or so for him to make.

Havocs aren't bad, but you already have enough. Too much redundancy means you can't deal effectively with other threats you'll run into. My recommendation is to try not to tailor too much, even if he is your regular opponent. I still think that chosen are overpriced, but they're certainly not bad. Noise marines just do their job better. Even with no AP on their weapons and being more difficult to wound with, the triple fire is going to net you more wounds, and you can spread it out over more squads because of the timing.

Remember that you can re-roll hits and wounds with the mauler fiend for 1 CP. It's true that the dreads' 3++ is annoying, but you do a lot of damage with each failed save. A few bad rolls and the Maulerfiend will chew through even the storm shield dreads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Noise Marines exist to clear chaff. They can, through volume of fire, shoot other things but you should be using them on hordes. Hell, I'm strongly considering tossing 20 in a Kharybdis with my Alphas so I can drop them in, shoot 60 Shots, then double tap them for a total of 120 shots on turn 1 and clear most screens for Zerkers and stuff to walk through and clear house.

That is pretty gross. Personally, I think 1 10 man squad is usually enough for what you need them to do, and the kharybdis is overcosted. The 72 point rhino is fine. Heck, I'd probably pay 200 points to pull a stunt like that off. But 300? Too much.