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So lately I've noticed that popular opinion has once again fastened onto the One True Way for a unit to be fielded, this time with Chaos Terminators. The idea is that you take a minimum squad of Chaos Terminators and give them Combi-Meltas. Then you put them into reserves and Deep Strike them where they can hit an enemy vehicles with their one-shot Melta Guns. After that, presumably they go down fighting. At minimum such a unit would cost 105pts, and take up an Elite slot.

There are several problems I can see with this unit, the first being timing. This is a problem they share with many other Deep Strike units: that they don't always come down exactly when and where you want them to. The When of it is set: Chaos Space Marines have no way of improving the reliability of their reserves. The Where of it can be handled by utilizing Icons to put them exactly where you want them, but taking a unit that can actually put the Icons where you want them makes you pay a premium for Bikers, or the risk of Raptors. Perhaps if the entire army is taking Icons where possible to provide exact landing sites, sure, but if you can get behind enemy tanks, or simply within Melta range, you don't really need the Terminators in the first place. Without the Icons it's a crap-shoot.

The second problem I see with this tactic is that the Terminators are essentially disposable. I can understand spamming Deep Strike units in the hope that enough of them come down at the right time to avoid being picked off piecemeal, particularly combining medium-sized to large-sized squads of Terminators, Obliterators, and Lesser Daemons, because this forces target saturation, and can tie up the enemy in close combat. Throwing away 105pts is still throwing it away, and three Combi-Melta shots compounds the unreliability of the Deep Strike. Maybe if they were armed with actual Melta Guns, or you could have them come in on T2, but both is a kicker. I would pay the premium for Obliterators if I wanted three Melta Guns, because they are re-usable, twin-linked, and attached to tougher platforms: they're simply more reliable to make up for the Deep Strike, and they have weapon options beyond Terminators.

The third problem is that you're not just spending points, you're spending Elite slots, and Chaos Space Marines can do some very funky things with their Elite slots. It's not like Chaos Space Marines depend on their Elite slots, and the inexpensiveness of Termicide squads lets you stuff more into other slots, but that's beside the point: Elite units are necessary to bolster Troops, and they can't do that if they're glass hammers. The fact is that Chaos Space Marines aren't Space Marines and Chaos Terminators aren't Sternguard Veterans - which seems to be what Termicide squads seem to be trying to imitate: small squads of Space Marines who drop, kill vehicles, and then keep moving. There's a reason why diluting your Sternguard Combi-Meltas with non-Melta Gun weaponry is a waste of time: You want to assure the target's death.

So why would I be attacking Termicide squads? Well, like Obliterators, there is actually a time and a place for Termicide, like when you have 105pts and an Elite slot open, and plenty of mobile Icons. What I'm objecting to is the notion that Termicide is the only competitive, nay 'viable', Elite option open to Chaos Space Marines.

I approach this game differently than most people. Rather than writing off units for which I don't see an obvious use, I like to play with my army list (and a host of proxies...) to try and figure out what the role of a unit could be. This has lead me to advocating the utility of units like Chaos Dreadnoughts, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Chosen, Chaos Lords, and so on. I think it's a more positive way to approach the game, preserving the variety of units players can bring to the game by preventing narrow misconceptions about the utility of units form taking hold, and treating tactics in the game as problems to be solved and overcome, rather than avoided. So I don't really understand the attitude that "This and only this unit is a valid option, and if you disagree you don't have any credibility", especially when my personal experiences, including playing with Grand Tournament winners, tells me otherwise.

Your thoughts?

I run Termicide and they are gold. I've run Possessed, chosen, etc, over my army development, and nothing in the Elites slot has proven as effective as termicide. I drop them without Icon support, and they usually work fine. And if they don't, I've got other things in my army.

Iron_Chaos_Brute:

Could you elaborate a bit? Because some explanation would help to generalize your private experience. It's cool that you find it works for you, but I'd like to figure out why it works for you and why you think it works for you.

Termicide is the most point efficient unit in the codex. Theyll easily take down an expensive tank and save points that tank would have taken out as well. IT doesnt mean Id run 3x of them (only so many tanks to kill), but they really help you move up the board.

Disclaimer: I usually deepstrike really agressively with my Termicide, and the scatter dice usually come up pretty well. Not sure if that's experience or luck.

They're cheap so they're easy to fit into an army list.
Either an opponent will forget about them, making them a surprise, or they'll overreact and think that I'm trying to kill their big tanks.
I use mine as anti-Dread/anti artillery units. Going after a raider with only three is often a waste.
Maybe they work for me because I run a really aggressive army (Raider rush) and they get things out of transports for me.
They also let me ignore something like a whirlwind or slogging dreadnought, that, while annoying, isn't an immediate enough threat to turn my whole army at.
It just seems like whenever in the game they come in, they help.
Early game will kill a long range threat.
Mid game will pop a transport.
Late game will hurt a nasty CC unit or dread so that my zerks and CSM can handle it.

Even though I might field Icons and Lesser Daemons, Termies are a "problem" unit for me because I can't DS them and Assault - which is what I need them to do within that army context.

But, if I take fighty Termies, I then need a larger, 5-model unit and 200+ pt non-Scoring Land Raider. That's 500 pts, and doesn't fit with the MSU concept for my army.

OTOH, if they're shooty and not engaging, then they might as well be basic Termies for the purpose of Contesting an Objective. The problem here is that, again, I want a larger unit that's harder to kill. And if I'm going this route, Plague Marines work just as well in most cases.

Finally, if we're just filling the FOC, for similar points, I'd rather take another (3rd) CCW Dreadnought to maximize the Monster rush.

Chaoszilla doesn't use termicide anyway.

I've only just began using Termicides and they have become one of my new favorite units. Whether busting tanks or spitting a hail of plasma at other TEQ's they havn't yet failed to kill SOMETHING. that can't be said for my dread and chosen, which have both epic failed more times than i'd like to remember. The fact is that they are a steal for 105-130 points for a unit that usually earns its points back nearly instantly and must be dealt with quickly.

Instead of the '3 guys with combi-meltas' concept which does seem a glass hammer, how about a slightly larger unit (to survive longer) and tooled to be a longer term threat (coz those 3 bolters ain't going to scare no one!) - so long as the upgrades weren't too expensive Just an an example, Mark of Slaanesh so you have a dangerous (I5) HtH unit wandering around after they've shot their meltas. But admittedly, a good spot to DS a melta unit may well not be a good spot to then have a HtH unit... :(

Termicide squads are one of the most cost efficient units in the Chaos Codex.

I try to include 2 in almost every one of my lists. For 120 points you get 2 combi weapons and a heavy flamer/chainfist guy.
Deepstriking off of an icon makes the unit able to deal with tanks and infantry well the turn it comes in and remain a threat after the initial shots.

I usually run mine with 1 heavy flamer/chainfist, and 2 meltaguns or plasmaguns. Yeah, the meltaguns or plasmaguns take a shot at some enemy tank or terminator unit, but I think ahead. I don't want the squad to only be useful the turn they come in. That's where the heavy flamer comes in. There's no army a heavy flamer isn't effective against. Even against MEQs it can easily cause 5+ wounds to a unit when fired at close range. Enough to kill 1-2 of them before charging into hth. Much better than a bolter would do. The chainfist is there to pose a continuous tankbusting threat to the enemy. Even if an enemy defiler or dreadnought charges my terminators after landing, they're unlikely to kill all of them, and the final remaining chainfist can bust it up soundly.

Well....our troops are our elites.

Chosen have only one route: max weapons and outflanking, which has that timing issue and the whole non-scoring but paying for essentially similar CSMs.
Possessed..we all know.
Dreads...we all know.

So it ends up with terminators:
Cheap/Durable/able to threaten stuff when dropping in/anything they do after poping their shots is topping on the cake.

Termicides (as others pointed out) do not have to be min. sized uints.
You can see the Elites slots as 'suedo-hvy' slots, as opposed to units supporting troops.

Our troops are so rock hard that most of the elites pale in comparison.

My 7 Cents.

i add a chain fist to one and i have found it invaluable whether the combi's fail to crack the intended armor or the termis get charged by a dread in subsequent turns

Sanctjud:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the utility of Chaos Dreadnoughts and Chosen Chaos Space Marines. I think they're quite good value for points. Still, it's beside the point, which is about what distinguishes Termicide from regular Terminators.

What I'm particularly curious about is the notion that people are putting forward of not using Termicide as bare minimum squads: if they're not the bare minimum aren't they just regular squads?

I have a couple of five-man squads I run on occasion, using Chosen as forward spotters incidentally, with a Heavy Flamer, Chainfist, and Combi-Bolters, mainly because I don't like to rely on Deep Strike units as anti-tank - too unreliable. So I put these squads in to wreck whatever my anti-tank units have flushed out, or to terminate units like Lootas or Scouts. That I get. That's just Terminator squads.

So what's so special about Termicide squads if it's not that they're not just bare-bones Terminator squads? Is it the Combi-Meltas? Because Obliterators have better Melta weapons.

Nurglitch wrote:Sanctjud:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the utility of Chaos Dreadnoughts and Chosen Chaos Space Marines. I think they're quite good value for points. Still, it's beside the point, which is about what distinguishes Termicide from regular Terminators.

What I'm particularly curious about is the notion that people are putting forward of not using Termicide as bare minimum squads: if they're not the bare minimum aren't they just regular squads?

I have a couple of five-man squads I run on occasion, using Chosen as forward spotters incidentally, with a Heavy Flamer, Chainfist, and Combi-Bolters, mainly because I don't like to rely on Deep Strike units as anti-tank - too unreliable. So I put these squads in to wreck whatever my anti-tank units have flushed out, or to terminate units like Lootas or Scouts. That I get. That's just Terminator squads.

So what's so special about Termicide squads if it's not that they're not just bare-bones Terminator squads? Is it the Combi-Meltas? Because Obliterators have better Melta weapons.

because Termacide is cheap, can kill way more points than you paid for em, and they can down things like land raiders the turn they come in (if you roll well that is). That, combined, makes Termacide great for almost ANY game.

After reading this I might try running my CSM's my next big tourney lol. I normally face stomp with Nids, but this termacide idea might just change my mind >.>

oblits are slower, more expensive and less flexible than oblits. For 150 points you get 2 oblits. For 150 points you also get 3-4 terms with combi-wepons and chainfists/hvy flamers/reapers/whatever. Terms can deal with tanks or infantry quickly without being exposed to enemy fire for 1-2 turns before they come in. although oblits can deepstrike also, terms are usually better suited to what they are going up against (meltas and chainfists for tanks, flamers and claws for infantry) and fare better in assault.

@Nurglitch:
Re: dreads, no no no.
Dreads are decently priced, and are great support for the troops. No doubt about it.

My issue is only one, and it's a personal thing: I'm risk averse, I overweight rolling that 1, and it's not so much shooting my own guys with equipped light weaponry to minimize casualties, it's the loss of movment that kills it for me.

I was not, and don't think I did, trying to say they they are not useful or dont' have utility. They fit most list reasonably well, but I just don't personally go for them.

So I don't disagree with you on dreads, it's just if they didn't have the crazed rule OR, kept the old Crazed rule, I'd be all over them.

___________

Chosen: this will be the point were I will agree to disagree on.
___________

Termicides are easy to include, throw away untis (for better or for worse).
Termicide equates: weaponload out and usage, not squad size.
People use combi's because they are relatively inexpensive to spam on the unit, and you only really expect one shot out of them anyway if you are that close to the enemy and they have the means to kill MEQ/TEQ.

__________

oblis vs. termies: they are really there for different reasons. Oblits will favor plasma cannon walking from turn 1.

Deepstriking is a secondary function of the oblits, which goes along with the 'flexibility' side of things you pay for. It's there for when you DON'T have termicides and you decide to take a gamble for those melta guns they sport.

Terminators bring more specials per point compared to oblits, Oblits come with more flexiblity over the course of the game.

Oblits is a good buy for flexibility.
Termies are a good buy for mass specials and durability.

Chosen's outlfank/infiltrate are all parlor tricks, things that the chaos army can perform well enough without.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud:

The thing about Chaos Dreadnoughts, for me at least, is that my gaming group doesn't play them in the popular manner, where a Dreadnought will turn right around and shoot up nearby allies, at least not anymore.

Previous to Stelek, of all people, pointing out that we were coasting on rules inertia from 4th edition in terms of figuring Dreadnought line of sight, we played it in the usual way and I first took two Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons (it helped that my army doubled as Blood Angels at the time), and later branched out to Heavy Bolters and Plasma Cannon once I started field more Land Raiders (and bifurcated my Marines into Blood Angels and World Eaters).

I mean, I really like Dreadnoughts: I like the way they look on the field so I was pretty determined to get my money's worth out of them, and they worked pretty good once I had them sussed out with Land Raiders to absorb friendly fire early in the game. Once I noticed Stelek's point about Chaos Dreadnoughts, and brought it to the attention of my gaming group, Fire Frenzy became a positive boon.

The Crazed! rule still makes them unpredictable, but if they're armed with a conventional single Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon and something like a Plasma Gun, and you make sure that you always point them in the right direction during the shooting phase when you can, then friendly fire mishaps are much rarer, and being able to double-tap the enemy makes the Dreadnought much more threatening. But it's like the Possessed Daemonkin rule: you know that one of the results on the table is going to apply, so you plan for each contingency.

But as I said, this thread is about Termicide, which you mention is defined by the weapons, presumably Combi-Melta instead of Combi-Plasma or Combi-Flamers, and being able to bring those to bear on the enemy, which means dropping nearby.

I mean, I'm an advocate of high-risk high-reward play, but I can't see the advantages of dropping Termicide units to do anti-armour work when units that would guide them in using Icons could use the points to gain more bodies and more stamina - I already use a full Chosen squad specifically because they need to survive starting close to the enemy, and 105pts+ seems more useful upping units of Bikers, Chosen, and even regular Chaos Space Marines wielding Melta guns, and many more Bolters.

From what I've seen of the battle reports around here most people use something like half the terrain I'm used to, but I'm guessing that's why you'd be more comfortable throwing a unit of Terminators away on an unsupported Deep Strike, because they're unlikely to hit impassible terrain or another unit, and your units wouldn't have much terrain that breaks line of sight to advance behind. Would that be accurate?

@Nurglitch:
When I use possessed (and funny enough I do in my Crap Legion) I know full well what they will do/role:

Counter Charge for 5/6 of the skills they get.
If they get scouts: distraction role.

I have no issues with the usage of possessed, the issue I have with them is when I'm building a list and I look at what else I could get...
_____________

It's great that you guys play the rule like that, but sadly not everywhere goes that way.
Even if it's shooting twice at the enemy it still has the 50% chance of not doing what I want it to do in a given round. I say 50% cause there will eventually be a situation where I want it to charge, and it can't....where shooting is not as beneficial as charging.

Again, I'm risk averse, not entirely the dreads fault.
__________

From what I've seen termicide weapons are:
Plasma and melta, flamers are too close for comfort when icons are not nearby.

Bikers are already overpriced.
CHosen upping bodies: ehh, their role is to deliver the weapons, assuming even a 10 man will survive is questionable as the larger the squad, less likely 12" infiltrat, and less weapons are in effective range.
Regular CSM should not ever be less than or more than 10....so it's a non issue to dump more points onto them.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud is spot on with the points values and what is and isnt worth it (though I use dreads).

I bet you if youre a competitive player you will recognize the following point values for units:

155
175
255
256
225
105

It's kind of sad that there are so few ways to run this codex.

Sanctjud's comments mirror my experiences exactly.

Termicide is a necessary evil for CSM due to a lack of reliable, fast melta platforms. CSM often has to choose between moving 6" and risking non-melta range, and moving 12" and risking disembarkation. The high cost of their units means you are regularly putting 170+ points at risk regardless of what you choose.

Termicide provide extra melta coverage and resilient, cheap models that require an inordinate amount of focus to kill.

1. Lash prince.
2. WT prince/MoN or MoT...
3.10 CSM, 2 melta, fist, iocg, rhino?
4. 7 PM's with 2 melta, rhino?
5. 3 oblits.
6. 3 Termicides.

Something like that..........not 100% sure though.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud wrote:1. Lash prince.
2. WT prince/MoN or MoT...
3.10 CSM, 2 melta, fist, iocg, rhino?
4. 7 PM's with 2 melta, rhino?
5. 3 oblits.
6. 3 Termicides.

Something like that..........not 100% sure though.

My 7 Cents.

Fist with PMs, but yep. Pretty sad that theres only 1 way to run each unit.

Arguably, perhaps only 1 "optimal" way, but not everything needs to be optimal if you're not killing babies.

If you've got some other theme behind the army, you can take other builds, or even other units.

For example, besides the Dreads, I keep thinking that there as *got* to be a better choice for my last Elite unit. I'm feeling spiteful, and will probably just field Chosen, because I can.

Night Lords:

So basically what you're saying is that a competitive army has to take the 105pt Termicide squad if it's going to have a Terminator squad, or it's not competitive?

There are probaly two competitive builds for termies that I can think of, one is termice and two is five in a LR with 5x LCs.

Nurglitch wrote:Night Lords:

So basically what you're saying is that a competitive army has to take the 105pt Termicide squad if it's going to have a Terminator squad, or it's not competitive?

Nowhere in his post does he say anything like that.

sourclams:

Didn't he say that there's only one way to run each unit?

Do you really think that a 140 point Termicide squad with 4 Terminators, 3 combi meltas, and a Heavy Flamer are going to play fundamentally different from the 105 point version? You can add a few more bells and whistles but it's still going to be Termicide.

Termicide is the "most effective way" to play Terminators in competitive Chaos. Not having assault grenades or an effective assault platform (the Chaos Land Raider doesn't count) means that Chaos has a lot of difficulty making a Salamanders-esque list. Costing 30 points per model with an optimal range of 12" and mediocre heavy weapons means they're not very shooty, either.

The only thing that they're really "good" at is staying cheap and killing units above their weight. Once you load them up points-wise they no longer do that. Unlike Loyalist Marines, who can take 30 AssTerms and probably do okay on the table, Chaos Terms just aren't effective enough on their own and are too cost-prohibitive to form the backbone of an army in the same way.

sourclams:

I would expect a unit with an additional Terminator armed with a Heavy Flamethrower to act somewhat differently, yes, particularly have the Combi-Meltas have been expended. Considering that the extra Terminator is the cost of a Rhino, I would definitely expect the army to behave differently. After all, is not the point of Termicide to minimize the number of points being expended?

After all, if you say that the advantage of Chaos Terminators over other Terminators is that they can be cheap and hit above their weight, then wouldn't keeping them cheap be integral to the strategy of an army using Termicide units, rather than adding a Rhino's worth of points to the unit?

Indeed, it seems that adding at least 15pts of Chainfist would be necessary so that those first 105pts of Terminators don't get mopped up by a Dreadnought. Or are we presuming that the Dreadnought would conveniently explode upon contact with the squad's Combi-Meltas on the turn they land?