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Okay, we hear of Grandfather Nurgle, who offers his minions eternal life, and jealousley watches over them. We have Tzeench, who twists the fate of everything, Who'se power is infinite and yet he broke his crystal staff and relinquished power. We have Slaneesh, lord of pleasure and excess. But are pleasure and excess crimes? Why consider somthing evil just because it is different from the majority? And finnaly, Khorne. Get past all the blood and butchery, is he really worse than a God emporer who see's countless billions of humands die, and yet makes sure those humans are manipulated to think that what they are fighting is scum, no matter what, because it is different. Isn't the Emporer the ultimate opressive dictator?
I see the "loyalists" as fools, and at the same time, i see the Chaos representing the marginalised in society.
Anyone agree/disagree? voice and opinion?

Let me guess. You collect Chaos, don't you?

HERETIC!!!

Nurgle has the right attitdude, but the others are about as evil as you get. They are twisted and cruel hearted to the extreme, nothing is below them. (as Slaanesh has demonstrated time and time again)

haha, yes, i do collect Chaos.
but would you please explain WHY they are twisted and cruel?
having your minions whips, cut and flay themselves isnt evil if they also ENJOY it. Even the Witch Hunters have their flaggalenettes(?) and similar units which whip and punish themselves.

They are the embodiment of the negative emotions of mortals.
And as such you could argue they aren't evil since they do not choose how they behave, it's decided for them by humans\eldar etc bad behavior.
However, that doesn't make them good. More like animals if they have no choice. But since they love all their war and torture so much, it's evil in my opinion.

The Emperor and the Imperium, just as evil.
Xenophobia, genocide slavery.

But that's the point. They're only sold as good guys to the 12yr old starting customers to sell toys.
Look at the fluff and it's all Grim Dark and no good no hope.
And that's why so many people enjoy the fluff.

Ah, but the Imperium does what it must to survive in a hostile universe (which does not excuse them entirely, they sometimes overdo it) as compared to the Chaos Gods doing so for fun.

Interesting point Apone. But Then, if the Emporer is Evil, the Eldar is evil, the Chaos are Evil, should we just give the universe to the Necrons?
when everyone is in the mud, does what may be evil in preasant context still count as evil?
When the Tyranid infestation sprawls through the universe will we say "oh well, atleast its not like they have a choice. they're just animals. lets let'm have it" ofcourse not, so, whoose gonna stand in they're way? evil?


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to Empoers Faithful: isnt the universe just as hostile to Chaos? the Chaos RETREATED into the eye of terror, its not an act of survival to follow them there

When did the Chaos GODS retreat into the eye of terror? As far as I know, they are entities which grew over time and infested the once safe warp that was made by the old ones?

I believe the chaos gods are just really powerful daemons posing as gods. They also employ lots of daemons. By deffinition daemons are evil spirits. Daemons = evil. pure evil.

Nurgle, spreads disease and death, the "eternal life" he offers, is a wretched half life. Imagine having chicken pox your whole life and not being able to die. It doesnt even compare to how miserable serving nurgle must be.

Slaanesh, god of pleasure and excess. Completely hedonistic. Hedonism never works out well in the real world for an empire, When the romans started going this route, their empire crumbled, just like the eldar. worshipping Slaanesh leads to waste. waste = not good

Tzneetch, probably the least evil chaos god, but still evil. He's always fething things up for everyone.

Khorne, god of killing, rage, murder and brutality. Totally evil. I think this one is pretty much self explanitory.

Besides, why justify the chaos gods as good? I think the fun of playing chaos is getting to be the bad guys. Every good story has a good villain.

and as far as all these people saying the Imperium is totally evil, there are some really valiant, noble, honest, self serving, honorable and all around "good" space marines, Imperial guardsmen, and SOB out there. hell there's even some Inquisitors i'd call good.

i concede to EF's latest point. But lets not get into the 1000 time done issue of who was right in the Heresy.
but i have still not seen you give a point as to why the Chaos Gods are evil. all i've seen is that the imperium attempts to survive in a "hostile" universe

Let's see here:

Nurgle "protects" his followers by giving them diseases that cause so much pain they can't feel any other pain. In essence, he condemns them to eternal agony.

Tzeench's favor lasts as long as your usefullness, and your defeat will already be planned out.

Khorne will kill you the moment there is more blood to be spilt from you than by you.

Slaneesh gets bored really easily and will eat your soul if he feels like it.

to Norwulf. Its made quite clear in all chaos texts that followers of nurgle feel very little at all. they are not miserable, they are doted upon.
And Hedonism is a moralistic view. i' e never come accross a moralistic imperative that is acctuall right. (Utilitariansim, such as the imperium, justifies Slavery and torture)


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Slaneesh never eat the soul of Lucius. in contrary, he made it so that Lucius' soul could inhabit any body.

Yeah, nurgle gives you eternal life, makes you immune to pain, etc. But i think I would much rather be able to die than spend eternaty giving people a realy nasty cold. Giving the entire galaxy herpes just doesnt seem like something a good guy would do. IMO the cons outway the pros.

BHaha! Ouch norwulf, that's contempt if ever i knew it.
but a fair point behind it. But surley thers the pro of being a eternal sensationless warrior compared to being a pain-feeling scared warrior (that has a leadership of 8!)

IF there is such a thing that can be called evil, the Chaos Gods (uber-deamons) are right up there.

Norwulf wrote:...hell there's even some Inquisitors i'd call good.

Thanks, mate

And WHY are they up there, as opposed to a decaying "empoerer" that sits on a GOLDEN throne while sending so many people to they're death? Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Daemon Hunters, there are four whole races fighting for the emperor!

Bascilica wrote:BHaha! Ouch norwulf, that's contempt if ever i knew it.
but a fair point behind it. But surley thers the pro of being a eternal sensationless warrior compared to being a pain-feeling scared warrior (that has a leadership of 8!)

No contempt aimed at you bro, iz all good. (as for Nurgle, im totally gonna go NFW on your pox covered ass!)
yeah, there's totally pros to serving nurgle. But I myself would rather be something else in the 40k universe. I gotta admit death guard are cool. My favorite CSM army is deffinitly night lords though, as i like the way they wage war. Psychological warfare FTW!

There's a defence between ruthless necessity and sadism.

They are fighting for thier survival (and protecting the people of the Imperium) while the Chaos Gods are doing it for fun.

Bascilica wrote:And WHY are they up there, as opposed to a decaying "empoerer" that sits on a GOLDEN throne while sending so many people to they're death? Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Daemon Hunters, there are four whole races fighting for the emperor!

Because, you know, the Emperor doesn't actually have a choice about that. He was put there when Chaos corrupted his son, who severely wounded him before the Emperor killed him.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:There's a defence between ruthless necessity and sadism.

They are fighting for thier survival (and protecting the people of the Imperium) while the Chaos Gods are doing it for fun.

I agree. Almost every other faction in the galaxy would kill all humans, torture all humans forever, eat all humans, or eat the souls of all humans were the Imperium not so ruthless in it defense of its people.

(Coming from the Red guy wiv da axe, mabye we should listen to this bit of inside info...)

If the imperium didnt launch attacks, if it only responded, if it created huge blockades and an impenetrable space fort, then i would consider them prehapse not as bad as chaos seems to be. But, they are launching attacks. They are virus-bombing plannets! The Spacewolves destroy'd the home of the Thousand Sons, did the Thousand Sons ever destroy the home of another race?
No, they simply chose to follow somone else. Is it okay to go and kill somone because they follow a different political leader or club?

From the BGB 4th edition: "In times of darkness, it is wise to follow the blind man, In times of madness, should we not also follow the madman?" it went something like that, it's not verbatum.

The Imperium has to be utterly ruthless and cruel, they can't afford to be anything but space facists because then mutation, heresy and betrayal would overrun them. The emporer may have some harsh rule goin on, but it really is for the better of humanity. If you've seen and or read "Watchmen" (preferably read) than compare him with Ozymandias, yes he killed millions of innocent people, but in the end it was a necessary evil. The words "necessary evil" sum up the Imperium enitrely I think.

Mutation is simply a deviant from the normal. if there went mutation, there would be no evolution. and Herest and Betrayal? Frankly, Heasy and Betrayl against a Facist Lunatic madman dictator isnt a bad thing at all.
yeah, i've seen Watchmena nd have the comic. Ozymandias was a... well, i didnt like him.

it seems to be 1 against three... but then, to bow to a majority though would be an imperialist way about it, to submit simply because thats the environment your in.

I didnt like him either, in fact i thought ozymandias was a colossal dick! (I like Rorshach, we need more of him in the world) but what ol' ozzy did was necessary. Otherwise the russians would have nuked the U.S. and then there's retalitory strikes, war marchs on etc. When Ozymandias killed all those people, it was a mere handful campared to the alternative. Also he achieved world peace by doin this.

I have never witnessed or heard of a beneficial mutation in real life. Also there's holes and contridictions in the fluff regarding mutation, (sanguinus) but the imperium is constantly beset by danger and the Iron rule of the emprah is the only thing keeping humanity going. If all of humanity was to follow the chaos gods, they would end up losing their humanity, just look at fulgrim. The chaos gods would mold them as they see fit and treat them like pawns, it's not much better than serving the imperium but it's better than being some kind of tentacled horned pus spewing thingy. IMO anyhoo.

BTW, Ozymandias' plan failed in the end. (Rorshachs journal made it to the paper, so they'll know it's a lie)

Emperors Faithful wrote:BTW, Ozymandias' plan failed in the end. (Rorshachs journal made it to the paper, so they'll know it's a lie)

Oh yeah! I spaced that part. That was one of my favorite parts, how could i forget? I love how they give Rorshach the last laugh. He's my favorite super hero, he even stole the #1 from Batman in my book, (which was a monumental feat)

yeah, lets move away from watchmen and back to topic.

Never head or useful Mutation? what are wings? aposable thumbs? i tell you, they havnt always existed. feet! we were all fishes, every party of your biology was once a mutation that caused an active benefit to a creature, hence why Mutation is not a bad thing.

Bascilica wrote:yeah, lets move away from watchmen and back to topic.

Never head or useful Mutation? what are wings? aposable thumbs? i tell you, they havnt always existed. feet! we were all fishes, every party of your biology was once a mutation that caused an active benefit to a creature, hence why Mutation is not a bad thing.

Gonna have to disagree with you here, i dont consider that a mutation, rather design. When something is "mutated" it usually means there is some kind of error or defect in the creatue's chromosome. But you are entitled to believe whatever you choose to, I'm all for people having whatever opinion they like. I really dont wanna turn this thread into a religious philosphical debate. (why does that always happen? I gotta learn to avoid these subjects)

The reason mutation is bad for the empire is it causes people to lose their humanity after a while, and preserving humanity is everything the Imperium stands for. If all the humans decided to accept the chaos gods nurgle would have everyone covered in boils and sores, they'd end up looking like giant walking pusbags, khorne would shape them into fanged, horned monstrosities, tzneetch would make people into indescribable horrors, and slaanesh would give evryone one boob! One BOOB! what could be more horrific? lol

lol at Slaanesh.
frankly, i dont want to give you a lecture in the principals surrounding the complexities of darwinian theory either.
oh, and Tzeench daemons are always happy and cheerful and smart! the Horrors have an awsome time, the Flamers bob around cooly ly and hwile the screamers are a little bit stupider, they're always good fun for the player...

Emperors Faithful wrote:(Coming from the Red guy wiv da axe, mabye we should listen to this bit of inside info...)

So you want inside info, eh? Well I'll tell you a story. You see, as part of the benefits package of working for Chaos, we get our own cafeteria with food cooked personally by the Chaos gods. There is a bit of a problem though. Khorne only ever serves raw meat, which gets kinda tiring after a while. When we got a daemon to spy on him, we found out that he actually doesn't know how to use the grill (the only thing he set on fire was himself). But every time someone offers to teach him, he gets mad and chops them up. Tzneetch serves us junk food, except for his followers. This is great, except for the fact that we found out that this is actually a cunning plan to make all the followers of the other Chaos gods too fat to fight. Fiendishly clever, that one. It's generally better for your health and sanity if I don't mention what Nurgle and Slaneesh consider food. Just the thought of it is enough to make most people, including their followers, hurl. there has only been one time that someone ate Hurgle's food. It was Lucius the Eternal, on a dare. He died after the first bite. Slaneesh waited a month before bringing him back. We don't actually know what happened during that time, and Lucius refuses to talk about it. We do know, however (from a daemon that listened at the door), that it involved shaving cream, a toilet plunger, and an Ork named Bubba.

I myself have studied Darwin's theories along with others, but whenever i discuss it with people it always turns into a long-winded, heated debate that leaves no one satisfied and causes hurt feelings and anger. So yeah, it all comes down to what your opinion is.

Like i said Tzneetch is probably the least evil among the four. Still I think if he (she?) had his way humans would end up nothing but a memory. IIRC, the main objective of chaos is ultimately burning the whole galaxy to nothing but a cinder and unleashing the warp into reality casuing utter madness and terror everywhere. The chaos gods are born of negitive emotions from sentiant beings, so it would make sense that they wish to achieve the ends that the emotions they are born of usually lead to. Fear, rage, hubris, arrogance, cruelty, manipulation, sickness, pride, death, destruction, recklessness, decay, selfishness, terror, all of these are just some of what the choas gods are made of, and they usually lead to evil, or come from it.


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Deathbot wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:(Coming from the Red guy wiv da axe, mabye we should listen to this bit of inside info...)

So you want inside info, eh? Well I'll tell you a story. You see, as part of the benefits package of working for Chaos, we get our own cafeteria with food cooked personally by the Chaos gods. There is a bit of a problem though. Khorne only ever serves raw meat, which gets kinda tiring after a while. When we got a daemon to spy on him, we found out that he actually doesn't know how to use the grill (the only thing he set on fire was himself). But every time someone offers to teach him, he gets mad and chops them up. Tzneetch serves us junk food, except for his followers. This is great, except for the fact that we found out that this is actually a cunning plan to make all the followers of the other Chaos gods too fat to fight. Fiendishly clever, that one. It's generally better for your health and sanity if I don't mention what Nurgle and Slaneesh consider food. Just the thought of it is enough to make most people, including their followers, hurl. there has only been one time that someone ate Hurgle's food. It was Lucius the Eternal, on a dare. He died after the first bite. Slaneesh waited a month before bringing him back. We don't actually know what happened during that time, and Lucius refuses to talk about it. We do know, however (from a daemon that listened at the door), that it involved shaving cream, a toilet plunger, and an Ork named Bubba.

LMAO!! All of those got to be better than imperial rations.