Chaos Gods, good or bad?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Emperors Faithful**

You don't know how all chocolates are made. (one might buy eco-friendly or somesuch).

Besides, where Slaanesh is the EPTIOME, the epiphany, the ultimate of said vices, the DE are merely strongly influenced by them. (They also show the farthest human society can fall, as the wierd stuff by Slaanesh is in many cases quite impossible)

**Bascilica**

well if its impossible and yet these skinned people live ( as shown in Daemon World, Ben Counter) then has not Slaanesh not gifted these people witht eh agnificent ability to draw plpeasure from themselves to an eternal extent?

**JonasE**

I`d say that it`s the producers of the chocolate that`s bad. If they told everyone how they make chocolate then they`re sales would fall drasticly. And some chocolate producents have normal workers with lunch breaks and vacations (for example Freia, and i buy all my chocolate from them

).

**Orkeosaurus**

Why don't these workers who live in bad conditions just get a job with a company who pays more?

**LiberatedObject**

Well, as insensitive as this will sound, people who are forced to work in terrible conditions, such as sweatshops or, as people here are saying, a chocolate factory, do so out of necessity. Either it's better paying than working in fields and with better benefits (as is the case in a third world country) or because no other job is available (oompa-loompas).

**Orkeosaurus**

That's pretty much what I would say as well.

If we're talking about companies buying up large tracts of land that could otherwise be used to grow food and such, then the workers might be in an unfair position. They went from being able to grow their own food to having to either pick chocolate or starve. If they don't have a say in their government, there's even less they can do to try and protect themselves.

Much of the time though, the sweatshops and such are simply offering them a better deal. Not because sweatshops are lovely, but because there's no good alternative. In that situation the "exploitative" corporations are helping people, albeit not to the extent that many would like.

**WarmasterScott**

Emperors Faithful wrote:But Chaos is much better?
I fail to see your argument in justifying the 'goodieness' of Chaos.

Either there is no good or evil, or Chaos are the EPITOME of evil. (With DE not far behind)

Im saying there is no true evil between the chaos or imperium. I'm saying its more of a law vs chaos scenario. Humans by nature are creatures who like rules and structure. The Imperium is a very extreme version of law. They say they're doing what they're doing it to save humanity but it's more of keeping a status quo when they attack their own to protect them from themselves. The harsh acts of the imperium(law) are to try to combat extreme chaos. I mean look at histories attempts at combating free will and biological impulses. Humans like control and thats a reason for a spike in science. They want to understand the world so they can change what they don't like. Plastic surgery, cloning, abortion, and a multitude of other things they want to change about nature. The game brings up a lot of neat ideas to think about. I mean salvation through brutality really make you righteous? At what point do you become worse then what your fighting? Are sentient beings the only things capable of "evil." What defines evil? Is it free thought vs being a drone? I love the 40k fluff almost more then the actual game. I mean could you imagine of the Imperium and Eldar could get past their xenophobia and teamed up formally? I mean eldrad and his crew already proved they could take abaddon by themselves.

**Emperors Faithful**

Imperium and Eldard (That Dick!) have teamed up on several occasions in the past, FYI.

Also, you did not answer my question.
If you were to compare the two, the Imperium would undoubtedly be the 'lesser evil'. When it comes to evilness, Chaos beats everyone by a long shot. Both from thier acts, and from their very nature.

**WarmasterScott**

Emperors Faithful wrote:Imperium and Eldard (That Dick!) have teamed up on several occasions in the past, FYI.

Also, you did not answer my question.
If you were to compare the two, the Imperium would undoubtedly be the 'lesser evil'. When it comes to evilness, Chaos beats everyone by a long shot. Both from thier acts, and from their very nature.

Well of course from a perspective of a more sane human of course the Imperium would make more sense, but that due in large part of the society I grew up in. The op doesnt say from a human perspective is chaos good or bad.. it says is it good or bad in general. I still yet don't understand why people associate chaos as bad(in terms of the word itself not the powers of 40k). Chaos is always used to describe the bad guys even in other fantasy etc settings. Chaos promotes survival of the fittest, competition etc which has propelled us where we are. Why then to people wanna reduce it to just stagnant law where there is little growth? I mean one of the biggest times for growth are during stressful times like plagues, war, etc. Though those may be extreme examples. FYI I did know of their teaming up and I suppose the formally part may have been lost but I mean if they were permanent allies and possibly hooked up with other "lesser" evils as you call them to actually create a stable universe.

**Bascilica**

Allright, to Emporers Faithful: I would strongly sugest reading The Last Wish by Andrezj Sapkowski.
Once you've read that, you can go on about the "lesser evil" but what you have to understand is simple:
THERE IS NO LESSER EVIL. EVIL IS EVIL. THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN TO DO CHANGE IT.
There is no way to say that the imperium is the leser evil compared to Chaos, that is merley being nieve.

**Norwulf**

LiberatedObject wrote:Well, as insensitive as this will sound, people who are forced to work in terrible conditions, such as sweatshops or, as people here are saying, a chocolate factory, do so out of necessity. Either it's better paying than working in fields and with better benefits (as is the case in a third world country) or because no other job is available (oompa-loompas).

I hear Oompa-loompas have one of the best unions though....

Seems to me the chaos gods would be considered evil by most of the other races, eldar dont seem to hot on em, niether do DE for that matter. nids and necrons seem kinda indifferent to em, and tau probably just hasn't experianced chaos pissin in their cherrios yet. The whole universe either thinks of the chaos gods as evil, or cruelly indifferent

holes. except their followers of course.

**Orkeosaurus**

Bascilica wrote:Allright, to Emporers Faithful: I would strongly sugest reading The Last Wish by Andrezj Sapkowski.
Once you've read that, you can go on about the "lesser evil" but what you have to understand is simple:
THERE IS NO LESSER EVIL. EVIL IS EVIL. THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN TO DO CHANGE IT.
There is no way to say that the imperium is the leser evil compared to Chaos, that is merley being nieve.

So reading this book will automatically cause everyone to realize that the most common views on morality for the last five thousand years are incorrect, and there's no difference between murdering someone and stomping on their foot?

Or am I misunderstanding the post?

**Bascilica**

To Orkeosaurus.
Yes. It Will. infact, the short story within it simply titled "the lesser evil" will do it.
And you have no evidence to say that that goes back five thousand years.
Theres wrong and worse, but not Evil and a Lesser Evil.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and often commonly-held belifs are wrong.
Once upon a time, the majority of people belive the world was flat.

**Orkeosaurus**

What's the difference between wrong and worse and More Evil and Less Evil?

Five thousand years was a rough guess, but as I don't even know what you're really talking about I can't debate its accuracy. Also, I'm not sure how objectively prove the nature morality in a manner comparable to mathematically proving that the earth is curved.

**Bascilica**

If "evil" existsat all, then its EVIL, no matter in what form. if its NOT evil, then its not evil. its just bad.
There are no degrees of "evilness" where you can be "slightly evil" "somewhat evil" or "really evil"
theres Evil and there Not Evil
As such, the idea of a Lesser Evil is a flawed concept.

**Orkeosaurus**

I... sort of see what you're saying.

There's no difference in quality of evil. Something is evil or not. But that doesn't explain why there can't be quantities of evil.

Water is water, and there's no form of water that's less so than another. However, you can have large and small amounts of water. Something can be dry, damp, or soaking wet. Etc.

**Bascilica**

that is fairly correct, but Quantity and Degree are not synonims.
Other than that, you've pretty much got it.

**Orkeosaurus**

Well, obviously you can't have a physical quantity of a concept at any rate.

**Bascilica**

Tzeench would disagree...
in the warp, anything is possible, but anyway, back to the original topic
Do YOU think the chaos gods are evil? Why/Why not?

**Orkeosaurus**

I think being made out of concepts, they sort of break the molds of what can be good and what can be evil.

They're concepts taken to such an extreme that it's evil, but it's not as though they could possibly be anything else. I'd be inclined to say the Chaos Gods are evil in the sense that murder or rape is evil, but not in the sense that a murderer or rapist is evil. They're just a reflection of choices.

**Bascilica**

A very interesting interpretation...
One of the ones that makes more sense, as opposed to "I R witchHunter, Everyone Not Me Is Evil"

**Norwulf**

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think being made out of concepts, they sort of break the molds of what can be good and what can be evil.

They're concepts taken to such an extreme that it's evil, but it's not as though they could possibly be anything else. I'd be inclined to say the Chaos Gods are evil in the sense that murder or rape is evil, but not in the sense that a murderer or rapist is evil. They're just a reflection of choices.

This is pretty much what i was trying to express, just a lot more elequently. They are'nt evil because they choose to be or want to be. But they are made up of evil, or emotions and actions taken to evil extremes I should say. ie. I like hugging puppies, something that's not usually evil, but i could take it to an evil extreme. By hugging them so much i dont let them eat, or over hugging the puppy till it's ribs are crushed. That's some extreme puppy hugging lol. BTW which chaos god would get dominion over someone like this? Slaanesh?

**Orkeosaurus**

Khorne, actually.

His servants have other favorites.

**Bascilica**

was going to say Slaanesh untill i saw that pic... brilliant...

**Emperors Faithful**

@Bascilica: I understand what you are saying, but what proof or logical evidence is there that there is simply a thin line seperating the 'goodies' and the 'baddies'?
Some one who punches some one else is just as bad as some one who promotes/partakes/encourages/delves in genocide?

Wouldn't it act more like a 'PH' scale? (Alkalines being 'good' and Acid being 'bad') Why do you think there are no such levels?

BTW, it certainly sounds interesting. (Was it called the Lesser Evil or the Last Wish?)

**Norwulf**

yeah I suppose Slaanesh would do something much much much worse than hugging....

**Emperors Faithful**

Mabye not, but I don't think a hug could get ANY more discomforting/unnerving.

**Bascilica**

@ Emporers Faithful
its a book called The Last Wish by Andrezj Sapkowski.
its is a book of linked short stories following a charachter called Geralt. One of those short stories is called The Lesser Evil.
Theres also a computer game based on it, and there are loads of books still being translated into english from taht seris.
And i never said anything about goodies & badies, haha.
I dunno, ever tried hugging a really fat, smelly thing with its intestines hanging out?

**Emperors Faithful**

Yep. Oh wait...my friends intestines weren't hanging out at the time... oh Snap! (end bad joke)

**Bascilica**

Haha, Gotta love bad jokes