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Norwulf wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deathbot wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:(Coming from the Red guy wiv da axe, mabye we should listen to this bit of inside info...)

So you want inside info, eh? Well I'll tell you a story. You see, as part of the benefits package of working for Chaos, we get our own cafeteria with food cooked personally by the Chaos gods. There is a bit of a problem though. Khorne only ever serves raw meat, which gets kinda tiring after a while. When we got a daemon to spy on him, we found out that he actually doesn't know how to use the grill (the only thing he set on fire was himself). But every time someone offers to teach him, he gets mad and chops them up. Tzneetch serves us junk food, except for his followers. This is great, except for the fact that we found out that this is actually a cunning plan to make all the followers of the other Chaos gods too fat to fight. Fiendishly clever, that one. It's generally better for your health and sanity if I don't mention what Nurgle and Slaneesh consider food. Just the thought of it is enough to make most people, including their followers, hurl. there has only been one time that someone ate Hurgle's food. It was Lucius the Eternal, on a dare. He died after the first bite. Slaneesh waited a month before bringing him back. We don't actually know what happened during that time, and Lucius refuses to talk about it. We do know, however (from a daemon that listened at the door), that it involved shaving cream, a toilet plunger, and an Ork named Bubba.

LMAO!! All of those got to be better than imperial rations.

No. There is a reason we try to order take out as much as possible. Unidentifiable, tasteless, and capable of surviving some forms of exterminatus sounds delicious next to what we get in the cafeteria. OK, Tzneetch's food isn't so bad, but he's trying to make us too fat to fight. No one can tell what it is that Slaneesh cooks, and no one really wants to know either. Sometimes we see it moving. Even Nurgle's followers can't stand to look at his food for more than 2 seconds without hurling. Khorne beheads anyone in line who looks like he doesn't like his food enough.

I imagine that Tau takeout is really good but leaves you hungry again in an hour. I cant get that in my sector as we're under strict orders to shoot tau ships on sight. I'm surpised Slaaesh doesnt make alot of cookies and bonbons! being the god of pleasure and all.

Hey, is the Star child considered a chaos god? From what i understand he's a good guy.

Norwulf wrote:I imagine that Tau takeout is really good but leaves you hungry again in an hour. I cant get that in my sector as we're under strict orders to shoot tau ships on sight. I'm surpised Slaaesh doesnt make alot of cookies and bonbons! being the god of pleasure and all.

Hey, is the Star child considered a chaos god? From what i understand he's a good guy.

Tau takeout is OK. I myself prefer Imperial takeout. Don't forget that Slaneesh is also the god of perversion, depravity, and excess. That tends to affect his cooking. Incidentally, he does, but they tend to have tentacles or *ahem* "various orifices" covering them. They move around a lot. Would you eat that?

The Star Child is a piece of the Emperor's soul taking form in the warp. It is theorized that if he dies, he will be reborn as the Star Child and fight the Chaos gods personally.

Ummm probably not, although I've yet to eat a creature i didnt like.
I dont know the source on the star child mythos, Ive only collected bits and pieces form the internets and guys from my FLGS. But the idear of the Emprah becoming an actual god and fighting choas in the warp sounds really cool. I wonder if Gork and or Mork would make an apperance, hearing that there's a good scrap goin down.

Norwulf wrote:Ummm probably not, although I've yet to eat a creature i didnt like.
I dont know the source on the star child mythos, Ive only collected bits and pieces form the internets and guys from my FLGS. But the idear of the Emprah becoming an actual god and fighting choas in the warp sounds really cool. I wonder if Gork and or Mork would make an apperance, hearing that there's a good scrap goin down.

Trust me. If you ever work for Chaos, you will. It's been calculated that 30% of our casualties are caused by our food.

I know. It sounds awesome. I doubt it will happen, though, as:

a. The story would actually move forward in a significant way.

b. Things might *gasp* get better and the setting would be a little less GRIMDARK.

Yeah, we can't have things getting less GRIMDARK, It's too easy. I see the Emprah owning the chaos gods too easily and then chaos would no longer be a threat, the Imperium is thus able to deal with one less enemy, they then could use the warrp rather unhundered, so on and so on.

I'd like it though if the whole star child deal was mentioned in a codex or something, that tiny little sliver of a beacon of hope helps the story I feel. I don't really wanna see it happen, but maybe GW could hint at it now and again. Makes it seem like humanity is'nt just on a crashcourse with oblivion.

Praise the Emperor for his sacrifice,
as He endures so shall we.

No Unholy Deed shall go Unpunished,
all Blasphemous act shall be Atoned.

No Spawn of Misrule avoids us,
all are banished to the Void.

Nothing Shall evade our Cleansing Fire,
not Deamon or Spawn or Renagade.
For we are Mankind's Divine Blade.

This Forum is Absolved

Norwulf wrote:
I'd like it though if the whole star child deal was mentioned in a codex or something, that tiny little sliver of a beacon of hope helps the story I feel. I don't really wanna see it happen, but maybe GW could hint at it now and again. Makes it seem like humanity is'nt just on a crashcourse with oblivion.

Not to worry. The Imperium is invincible, because it has miniature-sales-fueled plot armor!

But yes, a beacon of hope might be nice.

I worship mainly Nurgle, but Slurgle (Slaanesh/Nurgle) would be awesome in 40k.

Slurgle's main influence on 40K: STD's...

My 7 Cents.

You have discovered one of the fun concepts of the Warhammer universe.

Good vs. Evil =! Law vs. Chaos

The Imperium of man is evil. They sacrifice tens of thousands of souls a year to keep the emperor alive -- who wants to die so his soul can be reborn in a new body. The imperium of man jealously watches over their minons, purging entire planets of life if they show the slightest taint.
The imperium is not trying to survive in a hostile universe. It is a power-hungry group of xenophobic, paranoid, lunatics strangling the life out of their own race.

Chaos is not necessarily evil, its just chaos.
* Tzneetch just wants you to be yourself. He thinks that you would look better with glowing eyes *poof*. He thinks that you would look better with tenticles for toes *poof* Tzneetch is just helping you really express your true self.

* Slannesh just wants to enjoy life. Life is short, get off as much as possible (Henry Rollins)

* Nurgle just wants to be your friend. In fact, Nurgle is throwing a party and your invited. Their are coming over and bringing the beer. If you start shooting them, their going to defend themselves! If you were just just hang out and join the party, there would be no violence.

* Khorne loves kids. Really, he does! Blood for the blood god is all about fighting and honor. When Khornites find children, they let them grow up to become strong warriors to join in the game.

labmouse42 wrote:* Khorne loves kittens. Really, he does! Balls of String for the Kitten god is all about milk and lolcats. When Khornites find kittens, they let them grow up to become cutie-pants to join in the fun.

Corrected.

labmouse42 wrote:You have discovered one of the fun concepts of the Warhammer universe.

Good vs. Evil =! Law vs. Chaos

The Imperium of man is evil. They sacrifice tens of thousands of souls a year to keep the emperor alive -- who wants to die so his soul can be reborn in a new body. The imperium of man jealously watches over their minons, purging entire planets of life if they show the slightest taint.
The imperium is not trying to survive in a hostile universe. It is a power-hungry group of xenophobic, paranoid, lunatics strangling the life out of their own race.

Chaos is not necessarily evil, its just chaos.
* Tzneetch just wants you to be yourself. He thinks that you would look better with glowing eyes *poof*. He thinks that you would look better with tenticles for toes *poof* Tzneetch is just helping you really express your true self.

* Slannesh just wants to enjoy life. Life is short, get off as much as possible (Henry Rollins)

* Nurgle just wants to be your friend. In fact, Nurgle is throwing a party and your invited. Their are coming over and bringing the beer. If you start shooting them, their going to defend themselves! If you were just just hang out and join the party, there would be no violence.

* Khorne loves kids. Really, he does! Blood for the blood god is all about fighting and honor. When Khornites find children, they let them grow up to become strong warriors to join in the game.

The Lords of Terra and the Eccliesiarchy are Evil, Chaos is influencing them because they know if the emperor dies well and truly that thay are going to get totally screwed.

Something I liked about Warhammer is that there are no infantile metaphysical dichotomies like Good vs Evil or Law vs Chaos. There's simply Chaos.

good and evil are created by the majority opinion.. if everyone accepted the gifts and ideology of the gods then they wouldn't be evil. good and evil are figments of the human mind. Deer don't think a wolf is evil. As far as defining the evil or good by intention, you can bs your view as much as you want but no group as a whole is good in any shape. Saying they have to kill their own because someone else is cruel is ridiculous. The dictatorship of the imperium is no better than being a chaos cultist. At least the majority of the chaos followers chose(not saying they're right).. both sides aren't very forgiving in ideals. Anything taken to an extreme is bad.

I think the current background leaves little doubt that the Gods are baddies. I'd like it if it was a little bit less cut and dried, more of a traditional "choice vs. duty" argument, cos that's cool.

(I'm twitching at the incorrect understanding of mutation, but I'll let it lie because you guys are having a fun thread )

I don't really think the Chaos Gods are evil as such, but their values differ so greatly from the Imperium that they're labelled as evil. Now, they're not good either, but I believe they're representative of the darker side of us all, which the Imperium is trying to stamp out. If anything, the Chaos Gods are a necessary force in the Universe- if the Imperium was left to its own devices, it might've been even worse

Khorne is bloodthirsty and ruthless, but at the same time has a code of honour (he generally refuses to fight against the weak). In a sense, he is no different than the typical description of a warrior-deity.

Nurgle may pass disease and pestilence to millions in the Universe, but at the same time he has been known to show pity (he fought Slaanesh for Isha), and protects his followers from pain...even if it is in a disgusting way.

Slaanesh embodies desire and greed. While he/she/it takes it to the extreme (like all other Chaos Gods), it is again a typical trait of Humans, and is merely nothing more than one side of us that we're usually ashamed of.

Tzeentch I consider to be the most 'evil' of the Chaos Gods, if I had to choose one. He is always scheming, and thinks nothing of sacrificing his own (even Lords of Change) if it will ultimately provide the resolution he foresaw. He represents the worst in us- the side that schemes and lies to promise a changed world. His followers don't even know what part they play in his schemes most of the time and are just treated as pawns. Evil though? Whether he is or not, it's a trait many people have and he represents it perfectly.

The Imperium (particularly the Inquisition) definitely has an evil streak at times, but with all the threats surrounding the Imperium in 40k a lot of people see it as the lesser of two evils. The people of the Imperium assume their way is correct. Obviously, Chaos is intended to be the antagonist to the Imperium, but as to whether Chaos is truly evil...I really don't know.

The Chaos Gods don't have values; they are values.

Take Khorne for example: It's mindless nihilistic violence, so of course the favour of Khorne is going to be drawn to MAD-style situations rather than merely beating on the weak and feeble - that's too much like good sense and planning, and not likely enough to end up with everyone dead.

Carefully planned strategic violence, controlled change directed towards an end, is the province of Tzeentch, less so because of any particular end, but rather the directedness of it, the positive principle of direction and structure. A worshipper of Tzeentch would murder the innocent if it advances her schemes, and would likewise protect them if it advanced her schemes, and would protect them to murder them herself if that advanced her schemes. It's not about the innocent, it's about agenda.

Likewise Nurgle's corruption and indiscriminate nature inflicts the same static cycle of decay on everyone, regardless. The same insensitivity to interest shown by Khorne and Tzeentch, sharing the energy of Khorne with the inevitability of Tzeetch to make Nurgle didn't save Isha so much as condemn that Daemon to the fate of all daemons of Nurgle: eternal suffering and flux. Where Khorne's nihilism is destructive and Tzeentch is creative, Nurgle is stasis, a repeating pattern all the way down, an unchanging cycle.

Of all the Chaos Gods Slaanesh can best be described as having something akin to motivation precisely because that is what Slaanesh is: motivation to do and be and sense. Of course this motivation is ultimately as nihilistic as the rest of the Dark Powers, as Slaanesh has no meta-motivation, no reason for motivating. So motivation instead turns in upon itself, turning pride to vainglory, ambition into greed, and hunger into avarice. There is no hope or despair or rage, but merely the swelling wave of self-ecstasy which dissipates itself into nothingness.

The best description of the Chaos Gods' motivations are found in the description of Chaos Spawn in Codex: Chaos Space Marines where it points out that they are fickle arrational and disinterested in the well-fare of their followers. Any Champion 'favoured' by the Gods is merely lucky when it comes to drawing their attention, thriving under their gaze rather than being destroyed. My sense is that if a Daemon gives you what you want, it's because it would have given it to you anyways whether you wanted it or not, and will benefit you only insofar as your interests match the Daemon's nature.

Managing to hold these interests in balance is what saves you from corruption: the Emperor did it by holding his Great Crusade out as a threat to the dominion of the Gods, so that while they put aside their differences to crush his ascendancy, humanity could grow and flourish in an orgy of violence, anguish, despair and hope for the Golden Future.

Likewise Abbadon remains himself, rather than having damned himself to the half-life immortality of daemonhood, because he employs the Dark Powers to his own end rather than reveling in their separate aspects. Rather than giving into the selfish nihilism of each Power, he solves the Riddle of Chaos by devoting himself to something beyond his own interest: winning the Long War.

That's how Chaos Space Marines fall from being Space Marines, when before they were powerful because they could put the goals of the Chapter, Company, and Squad before their own survival, they put their own interests for and forgo the benefits of selflessness. From there it's an inward spiral into madness as they lose their purpose, their body, and finally their soul to the ravages of Chaos.

So why is the Realm of Chaos, a teeming sea of infinite energy something to terrible and nihilistic? Because it is nothingness, it is the ending of all things, the empty vacuum from which time and space spring, forced into being by osmotic pressure on surface of all that potentiality. It's like the Dreaming in the Sandman, or the Immateria in Promethea, except that it has no being or extension or nature, those things being defined by having limits and boundaries and structure. To accept the infinite potentiality of Chaos is to reject what is real, what is actual, in favour of the nothing.

Remember, the Imperium is the way it is now directly because of the Chaos Gods. Had they not corrupted Horus, the Imperium would be a very different place.
And the Chaos Gods are sentient. They choose to instigate all those terrible events like at Gheistos.

If you read Codex: Chaos Daemons it points out that such things as the ascription of sentiency to the Chaos Gods is merely a convenient fiction or metaphor used to make sense of entities that are outside of the frames of reference within which ascriptions of sentience or sapience make sense.

HERETIC

@Nurglitch: But the Chaos Gods did not ALWAYS exist. (Slaanesh had a definite birthday). Wasn't the warp once a safe place, built by the old ones?

Emperors Faithful:

I think the important thing to note is that existence is something that you have in space and time. Outside of space and time 'existence' is meaningless.

According to Codex: Chaos Daemons, p.7, The Birth of Slaanesh:

"That is how events are viewed from the chronology of the real universe, in the Warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed in the Warp, and yet has never existed."

So how does something exist and yet no exist? Dichotomies like this indicate several things. In classical semantics they entail anything and everything, which is cool for its implications for Chaos. In anti-foundational semantics they entail a diagonal to established axis, making paradoxes like Russel's Beard vulnerable to solutions involving diagonal arguments. But the thing about diagonal arguments is that they indicate a space or structure outside of the space in which the paradox occurs.

So Slaanesh has only existed as an entity in the material universe for as long as the Fall of the Eldar and the opening of the Eye of Terror, but has had a different nature outside of space and time which eventually caused its existence in space and time to materialize.

So while "safe" and "place" might describe areas of the material world, I don't think they could ever apply to the Warp except as metaphors for the Dark Powers being pre-occupied with each other, rather than having their attention drawn to reality.

Something mentioned in Codex: Chaos Space Marines is how Space Marines Librarians are corrupted to the service of Chaos, by drawing the attention of the Warp as well as its power. I'd suggest it's like that for everything corrupted by the Dark Powers: some action is done for selfish or absent reasons: Space Marines indulging in a bit of needless bloodshed (Marines Malevalont at Armageddon), an Inquisitor dealing pain just to savour the sight of heretics suffering, an Imperial Govenor using funds to war against his peers rather than to fund hab-zone sanitation in the Hives under his control, even aggrandizing some Imperial cult and plying them with gifts and favours in return for supporting his actions.

Where a Librarian draws the Eye of the Gods by drawing on the essence, or the nothingness, of existence to reshape it to his will, so do the others turn inward to the pit.

Of course, the Chaos 'Gods' aren't really gods in that sense. They are merely powerful deamon entities. And you have not answered my approach that concerned the nature of the warp BEFORE chaos came. (aka the time of the old ones)

Actually in the strictest sense they are Gods. They are both prior to and necessary for reality: they are both natural and supernatural, theistic, immortal, and beyond mortal comprehension. The fact that they're ravenous daemons rather than benevolent demiurges simply makes them malefic rather than benevolent.

Also, the Warp is Chaos. See p.6 of Codex: Chaos Daemons:

"The Realm of Chaos, also known as the Warp, the Immaterium or Warpspace, is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of matter and life, without laws of time and space. It is a rando, unstructured dimension of pure energy and unfocused consciousness. It is Chaos, unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose. Warpspace is Chaos, Chaos is Warpspace; the two are indivisible."

How do the old ones and the star child bit fit in?

The old ones created the warp to act as thier interstellar highway. Much like the webway, but not as restricted. After the old ones lost the war with the C'tan the warp fell into disrepair and slowly became infested with all manner of nastiness. It still works, but is now a real threat to any who travel upon it. (Deamons and Warp storms etc)

First I'd like to say im privilaged to have somone as knowledgable as Nurglitch discussing somthing with me.

to continue:
I think one thing that all the big figures sitting around writing codex's and editing black-library books make sure of is ambiguity. In Space Wolf, W.King, we see that the chapters selection from the average is in fact brutal, and morally wrong. Yet they are protecting the universe? in Lord of the Night by S.Spurrier, we see a Chaos Marine who, while causing great amounts of pain and evil, is looking for a gift from his father-figurer, and honestly belives in his own set of virtues, including that the Emporer turned his back first. Im not saying it's correct, but Ambiguity is prevelant. And Grey Templar has not yet given a reason to his (apparent) belif in the evil of chaos.

Well thats just the Inquisitor inside me.

I think that the Chaos gods are simply the manifestation of the side of any sentient being that is prone to evil. that they all came into being at somepoint, like Slannesh.

If you want pure evil you have the C'tan and the Necrontyr.

I wouldnt even call the necrons evil, if you go back far enough to when they were still flesh the old ones gave them the boot and didnt even help them with thier medical issues, heck I think the old ones tried to off them. So in resoponse they tried to take what the needed to live( at least longer and not with radiotion posioning), and this lead to the arvial of the C'tan and those guys kinda tricked them in to becomeing mindless zombie robots, and the C'tan are realy just large predaetors looking for the next meal. also I am a bad speller so yeah.

ok yea necrons are victims the C'tan are predators but the do enjoy terrorizing sentients