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Because the last one was locked because apparently my opinion is now regarded as inflammatory by some people, I will try and make amends by starting it from scratch.

The RaW says that a Unit without the Ability to outflank or Deep Strike may arrive from reserves via an Outflanking or Deep Striking Transport.

In practice, how do you play it? I play it that they may. My reasoning is being that if you do not, Drop Pods have no use.

Since it has come up often I am (re)reading the rules a few times. . . .

I see only an allowance for Dedicated transports to bring squads with them.

That said, I thought only IC's invoked the * in the USR section.

What did I miss?

kirsanth wrote:Since it has come up often I am (re)reading the rules a few times. . . .

I see only an allowance for Dedicated transports to bring squads with them.

That said, I thought only IC's invoked the * in the USR section.

What did I miss?

I am saying that a non dedicated transport may have any unit embarked on it in reserve. If the transport declares it is arriving via Deep Strike or Outflank, the unit inside may go with it. Dedicated Transports have no additional rules from Non-Dedicated except for what unit may start the game inside it. Thus, if one rules that you cannot Deep Strike or Outflank inside a Transport (Dedicated or not), then Drop Pods cease to have any sort of an effect, as no models with Deep Strike have access to Drop Pods.

However, this is a HWYPI thread, so please, Post your opinions and if you are of the "no" persuasion, I would be interested as to why.

Page 94, main rules
Outflank:
"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport. . ."

Deepstrike seems to allow for non-dedicated transports, however.

I really dont see what the rules debate is, the rules seem pretty clear to me. What is the debate?

I had missed that there was a debate about it. My local gaming shop plays that if the vehicle may deep strike or outflank then the unit inside may come along for the ride - that always seemed the entire point of deep striking or outflanking transport vehicles.

kirsanth wrote:Page 94, main rules
Outflank:
"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport. . ."

Deepstrike seems to allow for non-dedicated transports, however.

That's for units who have scout or infiltrate but also must buy a Transport (aka Pathfinders)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

broxus wrote:I really dont see what the rules debate is, the rules seem pretty clear to me. What is the debate?

I am not trying to stir up a debate, because there isn't one, I am just wondering how people play it and what justification people in the "No" camp give for the way they play it.

If it makes people feel better then the models inside the Vendetta are not actually deployed on the table. This is the reason they cant disembark the turn that the vehicle outflanks. I cant understand how anyone would say you cant outflank your squad inside a vendetta, isnt that the point of it?

broxus wrote:If it makes people feel better then the models inside the Vendetta are not actually deployed on the table. This is the reason they cant disembark the turn that the vehicle outflanks. I cant understand how anyone would say you cant outflank your squad inside a vendetta, isnt that the point of it?

What's this? I have never heard of someone saying they cannot disembark after outflanking (so long as it moves Cruising or Combat speed). Do you mean the Scout move? Because you cannot disembark in the scout move because to disembark you must have begun your movement phase inside a vehicle and the scout move is not a movement phase.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Page 94, main rules
Outflank:
"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport. . ."

Deepstrike seems to allow for non-dedicated transports, however.

That's for units who have scout or infiltrate but also must buy a Transport (aka Pathfinders)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

broxus wrote:I really dont see what the rules debate is, the rules seem pretty clear to me. What is the debate?

I am not trying to stir up a debate, because there isn't one, I am just wondering how people play it and what justification people in the "No" camp give for the way they play it.

First, I voted No, but only because I believe that the Vendetta question is wrong. Gwar combined them into 1 choice, which I believe is wrong, but it's his poll. So for the record, Drop Pods, yes. Vendettas, NO.


1. Really? You are sure thats what that rule is for? Where did you get this info? Are you seriously arguing intent here? Again I ask, where is Gwar, and who are you?

2. The rules are pretty clear. They tell you exactly what can use the Outflank rules. These being, units/models with the Scout or Infiltrate special rule. If they have one of these rules and also a dedicated transport, then the ability to outflank is conferred over to the Transport. Period, end, fin.

Where in any of that, does it list a Fast attack choice with Scout, being able to confer that ability on a unit of IG Vets without either Infiltrate or Scout? The rule set is permissive. It tells you exactly WHO can outflank. Vets riding in a Vendetta are not on that list, unless you can give them the scout or infiltrate ability.


Clay

Scout is not lost when a unit embarks a Valkryie, so the vehicle retains it.

When the vehicle attempts to outflank, nothing states that you cannot outflank if you are carrying a unit without outflank. The vehicle has outflank, therefore you have permission to outflank the vehicle.

The Vets are NOT outflanking, they are in a vehicle that is.

The vets are not outflanking? Really? So they aren't coming in on the side table edge then? In my experience, that's exactly what they are doing. Is there a rule that backs up your stance? I am not 100 percent convinced I'm right, I just need someone to start quoting some rules that counter the ones Ive given.

So far, that hasn't happened.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Page 94, main rules
Outflank:
"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport. . ."

Deepstrike seems to allow for non-dedicated transports, however.

That's for units who have scout or infiltrate but also must buy a Transport (aka Pathfinders)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

broxus wrote:I really dont see what the rules debate is, the rules seem pretty clear to me. What is the debate?

I am not trying to stir up a debate, because there isn't one, I am just wondering how people play it and what justification people in the "No" camp give for the way they play it.

First, I voted No, but only because I believe that the Vendetta question is wrong. Gwar combined them into 1 choice, which I believe is wrong, but it's his poll. So for the record, Drop Pods, yes. Vendettas, NO.


1. Really? You are sure thats what that rule is for? Where did you get this info? Are you seriously arguing intent here? Again I ask, where is Gwar, and who are you?

2. The rules are pretty clear. They tell you exactly what can use the Outflank rules. These being, units/models with the Scout or Infiltrate special rule. If they have one of these rules and also a dedicated transport, then the ability to outflank is conferred over to the Transport. Period, end, fin.

Where in any of that, does it list a Fast attack choice with Scout, being able to confer that ability on a unit of IG Vets without either Infiltrate or Scout? The rule set is permissive. It tells you exactly WHO can outflank. Vets riding in a Vendetta are not on that list, unless you can give them the scout or infiltrate ability.


Clay

Can you please list any source, any organized tournment, any FAQ, or anything at all that agrees with your point of view? I know if you went to any tournment and said this they would tell you can outflank people in Vendetta's.

P.S. My name is John who are you since you wanted to know, nice to meet you.

Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

broxus wrote:If it makes people feel better then the models inside the Vendetta are not actually deployed on the table. This is the reason they cant disembark the turn that the vehicle outflanks. I cant understand how anyone would say you cant outflank your squad inside a vendetta, isnt that the point of it?

What's this? I have never heard of someone saying they cannot disembark after outflanking (so long as it moves Cruising or Combat speed). Do you mean the Scout move? Because you cannot disembark in the scout move because to disembark you must have begun your movement phase inside a vehicle and the scout move is not a movement phase.

Gwar,

Im moving between FOB's in Iraq right now and dont have my rules book. Im pretty sure that you cant have your guys come out and shoot the turn they outflank in a vendetta. It may be posted in the FAQ's but I know I read it. If this isnt the case I will be a VERY happy man because my melta vets can get out and smoke some tanks also.

Sorry you missed the joke. That was directed at Gwar. Since he is usually the one arguing RAW vs RAI. However, in this instance, i have quoted the rules on who is allowed to Outflank, and noone has given me a rules quote to the contrary.


The rulebook agrees with my interpretation. The part where it tells you exactly who can Outflank. That would be on page 94 in the small rulebook, not sure of the page in the big book, but its right after the deployment section after the missions.

That is the point of the thread, how do different people play it, does it mean its right? Nope. Again, convince me I'm wrong. Ive cited the rule in the book that backs up my claim, where can you counter it? If you do, then I will gladly change my stance.


Clay

Im moving between FOB's in Iraq right now and dont have my rules book. Im pretty sure that you cant have your guys come out and shoot the turn they outflank in a vendetta. It may be posted in the FAQ's but I know I read it. If this isnt the case I will be a VERY happy man because my melta vets can get out and smoke some tanks also.

Ah, no worries. But no, nothing prevents them firing. What they cannot do is disembark in the scout move. A Valk/Vendetta can outflank, move 12", have the vets disembark and then fire (counting as moving).

@Primarch: Why yes for Pods and no for Valks?

Your vets can definitely drop out the vehicle: moving on from Outflank is, like all standard reserves, a "normal" move - and you follow normal rules for moving vehicles meaning you CAN dismembark and shoot when you Outflank (assuming you don't go over 12", even then you can use the special Vendetta rules); There is NO FAQ anywhere that states the contrary.

Clay - The Vets inside the vehicle are NOT, strictly, outflanking: they have not rolled a dice to determine table edge, and have not walked on. The vehicle they are inside of has done this, they have not.

Primarch wrote:Sorry you missed the joke. That was directed at Gwar. Since he is usually the one arguing RAW vs RAI. However, in this instance, i have quoted the rules on who is allowed to Outflank, and noone has given me a rules quote to the contrary.

And as I have said, the same rules you quote can be applied to say that Deep Striking Tactical Squads cannot happen. As we know this is not the case, the RaW allows for models who do not have Deep Strike/Outflank to do so in a transport vehicle.

Gwar! wrote:

Im moving between FOB's in Iraq right now and dont have my rules book. Im pretty sure that you cant have your guys come out and shoot the turn they outflank in a vendetta. It may be posted in the FAQ's but I know I read it. If this isnt the case I will be a VERY happy man because my melta vets can get out and smoke some tanks also.

Ah, no worries. But no, nothing prevents them firing. What they cannot do is disembark in the scout move. A Valk/Vendetta can outflank, move 12", have the vets disembark and then fire (counting as moving).

@Primarch: Why yes for Pods and no for Valks?

Where did I get this idea in my head then I wonder. Can they disembark after the vehicle Deep Strikes?

v/r
JB

Yup, they can disembark after a Deep Strike too, but may not move any further that turn.

Don't worry, I do that too, sometimes, not often... OK never, I am a Shining God among Men! (Joking, or not... maybe).

The reason I believe the Drop Pods, is I believe that the intent of the writers was for you to be able to Drop Pod in the dedicated transport purchased by your Marine Squad.


However, the Vendetta is NOTHING like a Drop Pod. It has several ways to deploy, and can carry other units, with the special rules mentioned, that are required to Outflank. Can't a Vet squad be given one of these abilities via a special Character or something?

There are other units that a Vendetta can carry that can outflank, or, if not, then when carrying units without these rules, the Vendetta can deploy normally, and can Outflank by itself. Can the Drop Pod do any of that? Can you walk the Drop Pod onto the board? Can you start with it on the board?

I still don't see a rule quote that tells me I'm wrong. Believe me guys, if the facts are proven and I'm wrong, I will admit it, and apologize, but for now, I just can't see it. By the RAW, there is a specific list of allowances for Outflank. Follow those and let me know where my reasoning has gone wrong.


Clay

Gwar! wrote:Yup, they can disembark after a Deep Strike too, but may not move any further that turn.

Don't worry, I do that too, sometimes, not often... OK never, I am a Shining God among Men! (Joking, or not... maybe).

Yea but you have a rulebook close to fall back on mine is about 200km through lots of people with guns and IED's. It makes it more challanging to check things before I post. I know I got to re-read that portion again because thats a huge shift in my tactics for sure.

broxus wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yup, they can disembark after a Deep Strike too, but may not move any further that turn.

Don't worry, I do that too, sometimes, not often... OK never, I am a Shining God among Men! (Joking, or not... maybe).

Yea but you have a rulebook close to fall back on mine is about 200km through lots of people with guns and IED's. It makes it more challanging to check things before I post. I know I got to re-read that portion again because thats a huge shift in my tactics for sure.

No Worries mate, always glad to help


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Primarch wrote:I still don't see a rule quote that tells me I'm wrong.

nosferatu1001 already pointed that out.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Page 94, main rules
Outflank:
"Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport. . ."

Deepstrike seems to allow for non-dedicated transports, however.

That's for units who have scout or infiltrate but also must buy a Transport (aka Pathfinders)

That is the part I miss. . . I do not see any other allowance for them to use it. I see (even in the USR section) allowances for dedicated transports - not transports in general. Infiltrate cannot be used with transports, and Scout also says "dedicated transports".

Held in reserve, certainly, but only Deepstrike mentions (non-dedicated) transports.

And as I said, Dedicated and Non Dedicated transports follow all the same rules except one (which is who can start in it at the start of the game).

Gwar! wrote:And as I said, Dedicated and Non Dedicated transports follow all the same rules except one (which is who can start in it at the start of the game).

Yea. . . I read that.
My question is why, in all situations where outflank is possible, specify dedicated transports - if any transport will do?

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And as I said, Dedicated and Non Dedicated transports follow all the same rules except one (which is who can start in it at the start of the game).

Yea. . . I read that.
My question is why, in all situations where outflank is possible, specify dedicated transports - if any transport will do?

Because it is to allow units able to outflank who have to buy dedicated transports that cannot outflank to be able to use them to outflank.

Gwar! wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

Gwar! wrote:And as I said, Dedicated and Non Dedicated transports follow all the same rules except one (which is who can start in it at the start of the game).

Yea. . . I read that.
My question is why, in all situations where outflank is possible, specify dedicated transports - if any transport will do?

Because it is to allow units able to outflank who have to buy dedicated transports that cannot outflank to be able to use them to outflank.

I re-read his post several times, I see no rule pointing out that I am wrong. I see where he has drawn a conclusion without a rule backing him up.


Your last post here is just funny to me. How in the world do you know this to be a fact? What rule backs up your opinion here? You aren't quoting RAW, you are guessing at best. I thought you were the RAW guy here. Give me some rule quotes please.


Clay

Primarch wrote:I re-read his post several times, I see no rule pointing out that I am wrong. I see where he has drawn a conclusion without a rule backing him up.


Your last post here is just funny to me. How in the world do you know this to be a fact? What rule backs up your opinion here? You aren't quoting RAW, you are guessing at best. I thought you were the RAW guy here. Give me some rule quotes please.

Where is your rules quote saying that models arriving in an outflanking transport are outflanking? (They aren't btw, which is why they can go with the Transport which is.)

Sigh, really?


The part where the rules tell you EXACTLY who can Outflank. That's not good enough for you? Great, since following the rules requirements for Outflanking isnt a requirement to outflank, I assume the same for Deepstrike and all the other rules. My Orks just got a whole lot more diverse. Truks Outflanking, Boyz Deepstriking, sweet!!!

There is a reason the rule set is permissive Gwar, it tells you what you can do. I would love for the game to work your way, but it just doesnt.


Clay

Primarch wrote:The part where the rules tell you EXACTLY who can Outflank.

Yes, Fantastic. Where does it say that the unit inside is also outflanking? It doesn't, because they are not. The Transport is outflanking, the Unit is just there fore the ride. The Unit does not roll to see what side it arrives, the Transport does.

Again, THE UNIT INSIDE DOES NOT OUTFLANK, THE TRANSPORT DOES.

Now, if you can point out a rule that says I am wrong, please do so.