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nosferatu1001 wrote:As said; You seem to believe, incorrectly, that a tranpsort vehicle is bound by the rules of the unit inside.

To be fair, that is the position that the RAw puts us in. Or, more specifically, the transport isn't bound by the units rules so much as the unit is not excused from its normal rules by being in a transport.

The transport rules don't specifically say to ignore the embarked unit's normal mode of movement. Nor do they say that the unit is not actually in play, or considered for any other rules that would normally apply to them. To the contrary, in fact, the rules say that you count the unit as still being on the board, as they tell you to measure distances involving the unit to and from the transport in which they are embarked.


So, as far as RAW is concerned, while the transport may be able to move faster than the unit, since you are moving them both together the only option that breaks no rule is to move at the speed of the unit. Which, of course, would make transport vehicles next to useless and is obviously not the way the game is intended to be played.


The same applies to outflanking. The rules for reserves simply say that the transport and the unit arrive together. No mention of the unit being able to use the transport's rules, or of ignoring any rules that would normally apply to the unit. So it would seem that, by RAW, the transport would indeed have to come on normally, because the unit inside is forced by the 'Arriving from Reserves' rules to move on from the normal board edge regardless of what the transport they are in can do. The only allowance the rules make is for you to measure the unit's movement distance from the hull of the vehicle.

I rather strongly believe, though, that the intent is for the unit to benefit from any movement mode available to the transport. And that would extend to the ability to outflank.


Which was a rather long-winded way of replying to the ongoing RAW debate and mentioning that I voted 'A'...


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Lordhat wrote:The rules permit units to be deployed inside non-dedicated transports while held in reserve.

Actually, they don't. They mention in the section on preparing reserves that you have to declare if you are putting any units in transports... but there is no actual rule anywhere that allows you to do so.

It's fairly clear from the existence of the first rule though that the second should be implied...

A similar situation arises with Dark Eldar Raiders with Screaming Jets. They let the vehicle itself Deep Strike, though the passengers don't have Deep Strike ability.

Since the rules spell out conditions on the passengers when the vehicle Deep Strikes, the obvious conclusion is that the vehicle CAN Deep Strike with troops aboard.

The whole point of my bringing up the previous thread was to get the general consensus for how the gaming community at large plays this since some of us locals were having this very conversation and it seemed like the reasonable thing to do to go beyond our little circle of players.

I voted A by the way.

And lets not forget Land Speeder Storms, which can Deep Strike with Scouts inside

I voted A, with the unit in the transport also counting as having Outflanked/Deepstruck(sp?) with their transport.

Seems sensible.


On a semi-related note, is it pretty well agreed on that a unit with the Infiltrate ability and a Dedicated Transport can Outflank in their transport (but not use their special "infiltration" deployment ability, obviously)?

Orkeosaurus wrote:On a semi-related note, is it pretty well agreed on that a unit with the Infiltrate ability and a Dedicated Transport can Outflank in their transport (but not use their special "infiltration" deployment ability, obviously)?

Obviously It even says they can on page 94. In fact it says they MUST arrive Embarked on the transport if the transport Outflanks with them

Ah, good. I was planning to do that with my army.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Ah, good. I was planning to do that with my army.

Which Army is that btw? I cannot think of any such Units other than Pathfinders off the top of my head.

Well, I was planning to do it with Chaos Chosen, but now that you mention it I'm not sure if they can buy Rhinos.

Nope they cannot buy Rhinos

They can buy Chaos Rhinos

In that case my plan is doomed!

I understand Gwars! side now more than I posted earlier (work ft. . .loss?).

With a transport, the issue of disregarding URS is not related, as the USR is lost for IC's being part of a unit. Transports are not ICs. The idea of dedicated transports being the only ones mentioned, while potentialy damaging (I would think ti takes more reading but!) is unrelated simply because of transport rules. The unit is not on the table until it disembarks and to imply/infer that its rules take precidence over the tranport's rules would override rules like movement distance and terrain modifiers.

If needed or requested I can post/PM why I reason this as related - but give me a bit. I am not even sure this post makes sense - even though the arguement does.

As stated, I now agree valkyrie/vendetta can outflank while transporting a unit that does not have the rules allowing such maneuvers.

So just thought of something. By the same logic i could by 2-5 man scout squads put them each in a landraider and out flank them? Or buy Sicarius make a tac squad have scout and put them in a landraider to out flank?

zombie78 wrote:So just thought of something. By the same logic i could by 2-5 man scout squads put them each in a landraider and out flank them? Or buy Sicarius make a tac squad have scout and put them in a landraider to out flank?

This point is poorly thought out. Can the 2-5 man scout squad purchase a Landraider as a deadicated transport? No. So the next question, does the Landraider have the Outflank USR, again no. The rules are clear for the unit that had scout and purchased a deadicated transport. The rules for a vehicle that has outflank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE!
Remember, you’re playing to enjoy a
challenging battle with friends, where having
fun and keeping to the spirit of the game is
more important than winning at any cost.
Warhammer 40,000 is an involving game,
with many different races, weapons, and
endless possibilities. In a game of this size and
level of complexity there are bound to be
certain occasions where a particular situation
lies outside the rules as they are written.
Warhammer 40,000 players should feel free
to improvise where necessary, resolving such
situations in a friendly and mutually agreed
manner, and evolving the game far beyond
the published rules if they wish.

When you come across a situation in a battle
that is not covered fully by the rules, be
prepared to interpret a rule or come up with
a suitable house rule for yourselves.
When a situation of contention arises, players
should agree on a fair and reasonable
solution and get on with the game as quickly
as possible. The most common way of
resolving any disputes is for a player to roll a
D6 to see whose interpretation applies in that
instance. P.12


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Why is everyone so quick to throw this out as a legitimate rule? RAW, RAI... Its spelled out in the RULEBOOK Not everything is covered and sometimes requires to you step out side the rules as written. ITS IN THE RULE BOOK!

zombie78 wrote:So just thought of something. By the same logic i could by 2-5 man scout squads put them each in a landraider and out flank them? Or buy Sicarius make a tac squad have scout and put them in a landraider to out flank?

first of all, by what same logic?

secondly, units with scout may ONLY confer it to DEDICATED-TRANSPORTS, neither of the units you listed can take a landraider as a dedicated transport. however if Sicarius chose to give a tactical squad infiltrate or scout and they had a rhino/razorback, then they would be able to outflank in it.

hyperviper6 wrote:Why is everyone so quick to throw this out as a legitimate rule? RAW, RAI... Its spelled out in the RULEBOOK Not everything is covered and sometimes requires to you step out side the rules as written. ITS IN THE RULE BOOK!

You'll find that most people are more than happy to consider TMIR when they're standing at the table. People fix on RAW in rules discussions because they're the only solid reference point that really exists.

You can house rule all you want in an actual game. But pointing out house rules won't help you to determine what the rules actually are.

insaniak wrote:

hyperviper6 wrote:Why is everyone so quick to throw this out as a legitimate rule? RAW, RAI... Its spelled out in the RULEBOOK Not everything is covered and sometimes requires to you step out side the rules as written. ITS IN THE RULE BOOK!

You'll find that most people are more than happy to consider TMIR when they're standing at the table. People fix on RAW in rules discussions because they're the only solid reference point that really exists.

You can house rule all you want in an actual game. But pointing out house rules won't help you to determine what the rules actually are.

And more significantly in my opinion, it doesn't matter what me and insaniak agree on as a good house rule when I go to my local gaming group. Insaniak's opinion carries no weight there at all.

Yes a scout squad nor a tac squad can buy a landraider as a DEDICATED TRANSPORT. So no it cant out flank. How can you have it both ways though. The non dedicated transport (valk) confurs it to the squad with out the rule

Valkyrie/vendetta do not "confer" any abilities. They use their own. Much like they use their own movement rules - despite having passengers.

Like Drop pods to not confer Deepstrike, or units in them could assault after DS in PlanetStrike.

Squads can confer some abilities to their dedicated transports, however this is rarely as useful as it sounds - as the squad must be transported to do so. This is exactly why it is listed like that, and why I was confused earlier. If the (dedicated) transports were not given Scout, embarked units cannot Scout/Outflank.

If the transport itself has the ablility to Scout/Outflank/Deepstrike then it can, even if it has passengers.

That is the crux of the issue.

I don't see where the rules cover it at ALL. They cover a unit with Scout and a Dedicated Transport. They don't address a Transport with Scout and a unit without Scout.

And I don't think Drop Pods are a suitable comparison. Drop Pods are: 1) in a different codex; 2) are a dedicated transports; 3) tell you that the unit inside MUST disembark when it lands.

You could take Vets with Infiltrate and put them in a Valkyrie and Outflank. Creed can give one unit Scout. It doesn't say what to do if the Vets don't have Infiltrate or Scout.

SM Scouts have Infiltrate and Scouts. LSS has Scout (iirc). I don't see how that's a comparison either.

The rules only address a unit with a dedicated transport. And it specifies a Dedicated Transport. So you can't put Chosen in a Chaos LR and Outflank.

There is no RAW answer.

dietrich wrote:I don't see where the rules cover it at ALL. They cover a unit with Scout and a Dedicated Transport. They don't address a Transport with Scout and a unit without Scout.

And I don't think Drop Pods are a suitable comparison. Drop Pods are: 1) in a different codex; 2) are a dedicated transports; 3) tell you that the unit inside MUST disembark when it lands.

You could take Vets with Infiltrate and put them in a Valkyrie and Outflank. Creed can give one unit Scout. It doesn't say what to do if the Vets don't have Infiltrate or Scout.

SM Scouts have Infiltrate and Scouts. LSS has Scout (iirc). I don't see how that's a comparison either.

The rules only address a unit with a dedicated transport. And it specifies a Dedicated Transport. So you can't put Chosen in a Chaos LR and Outflank.

There is no RAW answer.

Exactly, the rules don't cover this specific thing, so you default to the closest available, which is that the valkyrie has scout and so can outflank.

If a Valkyrie has no units inside it it can Outflank correct?

There is no rule which says that a Valkyrie that has units without scout in it cannot outflank.

Therefore, a Valkyrie with units in it that do not have scout can still outflank.

NOTE: This does not break the premise of a permissive rule set, permission has been given, and has not been taken away by other rules.

There is absolutely a RAW answer, which is that you may deploy a transport by a special deployment method that it qualifies for with a unit inside that transport that does not qualify for it.

dietrich wrote:The rules only address a unit with a dedicated transport. And it specifies a Dedicated Transport. So you can't put Chosen in a Chaos LR and Outflank.

And there is the disconnect.

It discusses the transported unit giving the transport Scout - because without it the transport cannot Scout.

Valkyrie/Vendetta models HAVE Scout. They do not need a unit to give it to them.

Outflank is not a USR.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Outflank is not a USR.

So?

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Outflank is not a USR.

Yes, well done. This is relevant how? We are talking about the USR's Scout and Infiltrate.

Drunkspleen wrote:If a Valkyrie has no units inside it it can Outflank correct?
There is no rule which says that a Valkyrie that has units without scout in it cannot outflank.
Therefore, a Valkyrie with units in it that do not have scout can still outflank.

Yes and yes. We don't know. Again, there's not a RaW answer, because there's not a specific rule to quote. I'm fine playing that Valkyries with non-scouting passengers can Outflank. I think that was the intent. But, I also remember when 'everyone' was playing that ATSKNF allowed marines to regroup with enemy within 6 inches (back towards the start of third). And I remember when Lash was totally misunderstood, and Adepticon even went with the "you move each model the same distance, can't bunch them up" interpretation. Just because 'everyone' seems to think we should this A doesn't mean that GW won't issue an FAQ giving answer Z. We don't know their intent, because we're not mind readers.

Also, I just noticed the poll is 9:1. Wow. That's pretty high ratio on dakka, 5:1 is usually the most that I remember seeing.

IMO RAW no RAI yes

Is there a rule stopping a Valkyrie/Vendetta from using Scout?
There is a rule allowing it.


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dietrich wrote:The rules only address a unit with a dedicated transport. And it specifies a Dedicated Transport. So you can't put Chosen in a Chaos LR and Outflank.

All correct.

This lets you know that the transports themselves need to have Scout to use the Scout rule - as that is the only model using the rule to move onto or around the table.

LR do not have Scout, any more than the guys inside have the ablility to move 12".

Playing a little Devil's Advocate with y'all.

Is there a rule allowing passengers without Scout to use a non-dedicated transport with Scout USR to Outflank? It's clear passengers with Scout don't confer that to a non-dedicated transport. Why would a non-dedicated transport confer that ability to the passengers then?

Again, I'm OK playing that the troopers can ride along for the Outflank. But, I don't think there's a clear answer to this. Feel free to find a rulebook quote to prove me wrong, but I don't think there is one. I think there's a set of rules that some people interpret to allow the maneuver, and some people don't interpret that way.

dietrich wrote:Is there a rule allowing passengers without Scout to use a non-dedicated transport with Scout USR to Outflank? It's clear passengers with Scout don't confer that to a non-dedicated transport. Why would a non-dedicated transport confer that ability to the passengers then?

Because Outflank is not a USR so is not Conferred to anything.

Page 76.

Scouts

The unit in question is the Valkyrie/Vendetta.