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Primarch - the rules tell you which units can outflank - and the vehcile is the one Outflanking, NOT the transported unit.

Are the transported unit rolling to see which side they come on? No, the vehicle is. Are the unit inside moving on from the edge? No, the vehicle CARRYING them is.

Your Ork Boyz can indeed deepstrike, as long as they do so inside a vehicle that is deepstriking.

Hmmm, interesting point. So basically a unit that is using the Outflank move, meaning they are coming into play on a short table edge, via the definition of an Outflank, aren't?


Thats what you are going with? The fact that a unit that is doing everything the rules for Outflank allow you to do, all without following the requirements doesn't bother you at all? Is the unit NOT coming on the side edge of the table?

The unit is in fact Outflanking, this according to the definition of an Outflank in the rulebook.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Primarch - the rules tell you which units can outflank - and the vehcile is the one Outflanking, NOT the transported unit.

Are the transported unit rolling to see which side they come on? No, the vehicle is. Are the unit inside moving on from the edge? No, the vehicle CARRYING them is.

Your Ork Boyz can indeed deepstrike, as long as they do so inside a vehicle that is deepstriking.

So the fact that the rules for Outflank specifically tell you about dedicated transports and bringing them along doesn't convince you that what you are suggesting is insane? The unit is in fact outflanking. If it wasn't, then it wouldnt be coming on the side table edge, it would be coming on the rear edge like everyone else.


Clay

So, why can Units who do not have the Deep Strike rule Deep Strike in a Deep Striking Transport?

Clay - you're assuming reciprocity here, and applying it thinking it supports your argument.

The reason a unit with Scout can Outflank (or indeed scout) in their ded. vehicle is that otherwise the vehicle would not have the rule - in all cases the VEHICLE is used to determine what the combined unit can do. This is a unit inside the vehicle giving the vehicle a rule it would not otherwise have - which is not the same as a unit inside the vehicle requiring the rule. Not at all - your argument is insane if you think it is: if you think they are the same then moving on the board is also the same as moving on.

No, the unit inside the vehicle is NOT following the definition of outflanking: did they roll for which side? No they did not. The vehicle did. Did they move on using THEIR movement? NO the vehicle did.

You cannot take parts of the rule out of context and pretend it is fulfilling them. That is a spurious argument. You also still have yet to answer Drop Pods - how can the unit, without DS, deepstrike in with the droppod? Answer: the POD is DS, not the unit.

Gwar, listen to yourself. You have chastised others on this board for using a different codex to try and prove their point, now you are doing it? The Drop Pod is a completely seperate argument, but sure, I will indulge you.


A lot of times, RAI vs RAW arguments for come down to knowing the intent of the rule. In most cases, you don't really know the intent, you are guessing(when I say you here, I mean you in general). There are those rare times, when something is so stupidly obvious, that everyone can tell what the intent was.

Drop Pods are a perfect example. Marines can do a Drop Pod Assault, they can buy Drop pods, and those Pods can carry 12 models. If the Drop Pod isnt allowed to carry models when it deep strikes, when whats the point of the model, or the rules for said model? There aren't any. It's not like you can choose to roll onto your rear table edge with your drop pod. You MUST Deep Strike. It's the only way to get the model onto the board.

Vendettas, are NOTHING like this. They can arrive in 3 ways at least, might be missing one, but I don't think so. They can start on the table, they can arrive via Outflank, or the can move on the friendly rear table edge as reserves, or on the first turn in the Dawn of War mission.

They can choose to carry models that have Scout/Infiltrate rules, so they can Outflank, they can Outflank empty, they can deploy normally with models that have scout/infiltrate or not, it doesn't apply here. They can also carry models with or without those rules and move onto the friendly rear table edge via reserves or the above mention of Dawn of War.

The differences are pretty obvious. I like to use RAW when the Intent is not BLATANTLY obvious. The old Terminators not having Terminator Armor being a good example. The Drop Pod being another good example.

The Vendetta however, is not nearly so clear. It gives you quite a few options. The rules for Outflank are also pretty clear. Is it impossible for the Vendetta to carry any models if it Outflanks? The answer is no. If it were impossible, then I'd have to side with you guys on this one.

I really wish you would leave the Drop Pod issue out of this, as it does not apply in any way to the discussion at hand. You know good and well that you cannot use rules in one Codex, to quantify rules in another. Sure you can try and glean intent, but I've heard you shout that position down multiple times.



Clay

No, I am not using another codex, I am using an example of the same Rulebook rule from another codex.

So then, can Vets Deep Strike inside a Valkyrie? Same codex, so I am sure you will be happy.

You seem to be hung up on the fact that the vehicle is doing something the unit cannot.

Can the unit move 24"? So you won't let Valkyries move 24" with models inside then?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Clay - you're assuming reciprocity here, and applying it thinking it supports your argument.

The reason a unit with Scout can Outflank (or indeed scout) in their ded. vehicle is that otherwise the vehicle would not have the rule - in all cases the VEHICLE is used to determine what the combined unit can do. This is a unit inside the vehicle giving the vehicle a rule it would not otherwise have - which is not the same as a unit inside the vehicle requiring the rule. Not at all - your argument is insane if you think it is: if you think they are the same then moving on the board is also the same as moving on.

No, the unit inside the vehicle is NOT following the definition of outflanking: did they roll for which side? No they did not. The vehicle did. Did they move on using THEIR movement? NO the vehicle did.

You cannot take parts of the rule out of context and pretend it is fulfilling them. That is a spurious argument. You also still have yet to answer Drop Pods - how can the unit, without DS, deepstrike in with the droppod? Answer: the POD is DS, not the unit.

So when you finish moving your Vendetta, no squad can get out and shoot right? Because no squad of Vets moved onto the table edge with the Vendetta? They are in fact performing an outflank move. The fact that they come in with one dice roll doesnt mean the unit inside is doing something the vehicle isnt. If I put some Space marine Devs in a Land Raider, then roll 1 dice for that whole reserve choice, can I move the Land Raider onto the table, disembark, and shoot my heavy weapons? No, of course I cant, because the MODELS in the Land Raider count as MOVING because the Vehicle did.


Clay

Primarch wrote:So when you finish moving your Vendetta, no squad can get out and shoot right? Because no squad of Vets moved onto the table edge with the Vendetta? They are in fact performing an outflank move. The fact that they come in with one dice roll doesnt mean the unit inside is doing something the vehicle isnt. If I put some Space marine Devs in a Land Raider, then roll 1 dice for that whole reserve choice, can I move the Land Raider onto the table, disembark, and shoot my heavy weapons? No, of course I cant, because the MODELS in the Land Raider count as MOVING because the Vehicle did.

Errrm... What?

You are making no sense.

Gwar! wrote:No, I am not using another codex, I am using an example of the same Rulebook rule from another codex.

So then, can Vets Deep Strike inside a Valkyrie? Same codex, so I am sure you will be happy.

What page is the Drop Pod assault rule on in the main rulebook again? What page in the rulebook tells you who can buy and ride in a Drop Pod? Where are these rules?



For number 2, finally a real argument. Since deepstriking doesnt require Infiltrate or Scout, and the deepstriking rules specifically mention disembarking from a deep striking transport. I say yes, they can, certainly. Thats my opinion, much like everything else I have stated, and might be flawed. But from my quick read through, I don't see why not. The rules for Deep Strike aren't as linear as the rules for Outflank.



Clay

Primarch wrote:What page is the Drop Pod assault rule on in the main rulebook again? What page in the rulebook tells you who can buy and ride in a Drop Pod? Where are these rules?

What does Drop Pod Assault have to do with anything? I am talking about Deep Strike, which is in the Rulebook...

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:So when you finish moving your Vendetta, no squad can get out and shoot right? Because no squad of Vets moved onto the table edge with the Vendetta? They are in fact performing an outflank move. The fact that they come in with one dice roll doesnt mean the unit inside is doing something the vehicle isnt. If I put some Space marine Devs in a Land Raider, then roll 1 dice for that whole reserve choice, can I move the Land Raider onto the table, disembark, and shoot my heavy weapons? No, of course I cant, because the MODELS in the Land Raider count as MOVING because the Vehicle did.

Errrm... What?

You are making no sense.

Of course I'm not making sense. Because you can't move and fire your heavy weapons. But since the guys inside the vehicle apparently aren't apparently moving(per your argument), then they should be good to go right? Of course not, I was making a silly example, to point out that indeed a vehicle moving does impact the unit inside. Might not have been the best example, but it's what I was shooting for.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:What page is the Drop Pod assault rule on in the main rulebook again? What page in the rulebook tells you who can buy and ride in a Drop Pod? Where are these rules?

What does Drop Pod Assault have to do with anything? I am talking about Deep Strike, which is in the Rulebook...

Sorry, I must have been thinking back to the multiple posts where you try and compare a Drop Pod to a Vendetta.



Clay

Did the squad move onto the table using their movement? If they did not do so then they, tehmselves, have not used the Outflank rule.

You seem to think that the unit inside the vehicle has to have the same rules - yet a fast skimmer vehicle can move 24", does this mean it cannot do so if there is a unit inside the vehicle which has less than 24" movement?

You're also wrong in that the Outflank rules do not say anything about denying the rule if the combined reserve "group" (note, not unit) does not have the rule: so as tehe Valk has Scout it may Outflank, and the presence of a unit inside the transport does NOT deny the vehicle this abiltiy.

Also, the rules for disembarking say the unit counts as moving, so your ranting has been somewhat of a funny aside. It doesn't matter if the land raider moved, they count as moving because of the Disembarking rule.

Gwar! wrote:Also, the rules for disembarking say the unit counts as moving, so your ranting has been somewhat of a funny aside. It doesn't matter if the land raider moved, they count as moving because of the Disembarking rule.

Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.


Clay

Primarch wrote:
For number 2, finally a real argument. Since deepstriking doesnt require Infiltrate or Scout.....

It DOES however, require a unit to have the DS rule.

and the deepstriking rules specifically mention disembarking from a deep striking transport.

But they don't say "A unit without DS may still deploy via a transport using DS rules.", which is what you require for outflank. If one were to use your criteria, then if any unit embarked on a transport were to attempt an unconventional deployment method, both must have the ability to do so, whether it's outflank, Deepstrike, or anything else. You can't require specificity in one rule and not in the other.

The fact is, there is a set of rules which let you deploy from reserves inside a non-dedicated transport, and no restrictions on what method that transport may use to enter the board, providing it has the special rules to do so.

I guess where you guys play, the rule set is not permissive. So basically, if the book doesn't say you can't do it, then its all legal? Sweet, I'm coming there with my Orks in land raiders.


Thats stupid, but its a slippery slope. The rules for Outflank tell you who can outflank. You have yet to quote a rule that says otherwise. The units that may Outflank are ones that have the Scout or infiltrate special rule. Their dedicated transport is included.

Where does it say the reverse is also true? Ive posted this time and time again, and it appears we will have to agree to disagree, but the rules say what they say. You are reading parts into them that are not there.


Clay

Primarch wrote:You are reading parts into them that are not there.

Actually, that is what you are doing. You have yet to show where it says the unit itself is outflanking.

Lordhat wrote:

Primarch wrote:
For number 2, finally a real argument. Since deepstriking doesnt require Infiltrate or Scout.....

It DOES however, require a unit to have the DS rule.

and the deepstriking rules specifically mention disembarking from a deep striking transport.

But they don't say "A unit without DS may still deploy via a transport using DS rules.", which is what you require for outflank. If one were to use your criteria, then if any unit embarked on a transport were to attempt an unconventional deployment method, both must have the ability to do so, whether it's outflank, Deepstrike, or anything else. You can't require specificity in one rule and not in the other.

The fact is, there is a set of rules which let you deploy from reserves inside a non-dedicated transport, and no restrictions on what method that transport may use to enter the board, providing it has the special rules to do so.

Depends on how deep you want to go with this. I could argue that the Marines ability to take a Transport that CAN ONLY Deepstrike is itself a rule that allows them to deep strike. The RAI is pretty clear. Why is no one reading the difference in these 2 options?

The Pod is completely(damn near) useless if it can't carry troops onto the board using deep strike. The Vendetta can deploy in all kinds of ways, and has a certain option, if criteria are met, that allows it to Outflank.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:You are reading parts into them that are not there.

Actually, that is what you are doing. You have yet to show where it says the unit itself is outflanking.

So the circle begins. Like I said, we have to agree to disagree. You are going to argue that your interpretation is RAW, which is wrong on many levels. You aren't quoting a rule at all. You are ignoring the rule I am quoting. You have decided to interpret the rule the way you want to, and no amount of actual rules will interfere with that. sigh.


Anyway, good discussion all, but pointless in the end.


Clay

Clay

No, the rules ARE permissive: the rule states that the Vendetta can outflank. Nowhere does it state "and only if the unit on board can outflank as well"

So you must find something that prohibits a unit from carrying a unit without Outflank from Outflanking, when the vehicle itself can Outflank.

Primarch wrote:Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.

In that case it's because the rules for Fire Points specifically state that they count them as moving. So still not a good example...

Ok, how about this. You say the unit inside the Vendetta is in fact NOT Outflanking.


I give you the arriving from reserves rules......


When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge(unless it is deep striking or outflanking).


That is a direct quote from the rulebook. So, according to this, if you put that Vendetta, and the unit of IG Vets into reserves to do an Outflank move, then by definition when they move onto the table, they MUST deploy from the friendly rear edge, UNLESS they are Outflanking. Since the IG Vets are certainly not deploying from the rear friendly table edge, then how are they meeting this requirement, and still not Outflanking?



Clay

So you're arguing intent, and not rules at all.

You agree that Drop Pods can carry people when they deep strike, even though their passengers cannot Deep Strike. Nowhere does it say that Deep Striking transports can carry models who do not deep strike.

Then you argue that Transports who can Outflank cannot outflank when they carry people who can't outflank, because it doesn't say they can.

You've fallen completely into the RaI end of the universe now, and aren't using any rules to back up your argument other than 'I want this one to be different'.

Penalizing the Valk/Vend because it has a choice is silly, by the way. What about an outflank pod? If there was an outflank pod in the game would you let valks/vends outflank?

insaniak wrote:

Primarch wrote:Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.

In that case it's because the rules for Fire Points specifically state that they count them as moving. So still not a good example...

Firing from a firepoint means your infantry inside count as moving? Thats news to me.....


Clay

Primarch wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Primarch wrote:Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.

In that case it's because the rules for Fire Points specifically state that they count them as moving. So still not a good example...

Firing from a firepoint means your infantry inside count as moving? Thats news to me.....


Clay

Combatting deliberate obtuseness with rules!

the rulebook wrote:Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves...

Hmm, look at that.

Note it says 'count as moving' because the unit obviously hasn't moved. It's in a transport, it's sitting still.

So when it outflanks in that vendetta, it's not moving in from the table edge because, like the example above suggests, it hasn't moved. It's sitting in a transport.

Orkestra wrote:So you're arguing intent, and not rules at all.

You agree that Drop Pods can carry people when they deep strike, even though their passengers cannot Deep Strike. Nowhere does it say that Deep Striking transports can carry models who do not deep strike.

Then you argue that Transports who can Outflank cannot outflank when they carry people who can't outflank, because it doesn't say they can.

You've fallen completely into the RaI end of the universe now, and aren't using any rules to back up your argument other than 'I want this one to be different'.

Penalizing the Valk/Vend because it has a choice is silly, by the way. What about an outflank pod? If there was an outflank pod in the game would you let valks/vends outflank?

Not at all. My stance is that the RAW should be used in all cases, where the RAI is unclear. In the area of a drop pod, its perfectly clear, the intent is that you can use your Drop Pod to deep strike. I also belive that the RAW says that you cannot stick IG Vets into a Vendetta and Outflank because the rules are clear, and there are other things you can do. The RAI is completely unknown, and in that case, I revert to RAW.

To be honest, I don't play IG, or against IG. I don't have some built up hatred for this move, it's never been pulled on me in a game. I just looked at it, and it wasn't as clear as some of you make it out to be.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkestra wrote:

Primarch wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Primarch wrote:Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.

In that case it's because the rules for Fire Points specifically state that they count them as moving. So still not a good example...

Firing from a firepoint means your infantry inside count as moving? Thats news to me.....


Clay

Combatting deliberate obtuseness with rules!

the rulebook wrote:Models firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves...

Hmm, look at that.

Note it says 'count as moving' because the unit obviously hasn't moved. It's in a transport, it's sitting still.

So when it outflanks in that vendetta, it's not moving in from the table edge because, like the example above suggests, it hasn't moved. It's sitting in a transport.

So basically you have nothing to combat the "Arriving From Reserves" rule? Does the IG Vet Squad riding inside the Outflanking Vendetta "count as moving on from their rear friendly table edge"? The main argument against has been that the IG Vets are NOT Outflanking, only the vehicle is. Citing the above rule, they are indeed outflanking if they aren't moving on their rear friendly table edge.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Primarch wrote:Fine use a Rhino and the top hatch in the example. The vehicle is moving, and the troops count as moving for firing their weapons. They aren't immune to what the vehicle is doing.

In that case it's because the rules for Fire Points specifically state that they count them as moving. So still not a good example...

Firing from a firepoint means your infantry inside count as moving? Thats news to me.....

Firing from a FP in a moving vehicle (which is what you were referring to, and hence what I was responding to) means the models inside count as moving.

Primarch wrote:Ok, how about this. You say the unit inside the Vendetta is in fact NOT Outflanking.


I give you the arriving from reserves rules......

When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge(unless it is deep striking or outflanking).

That is a direct quote from the rulebook. So, according to this, if you put that Vendetta, and the unit of IG Vets into reserves to do an Outflank move, then by definition when they move onto the table, they MUST deploy from the friendly rear edge, UNLESS they are Outflanking. Since the IG Vets are certainly not deploying from the rear friendly table edge, then how are they meeting this requirement, and still not Outflanking?
Clay

And what is the unit that is the subject of this sentence? THE TRANSPORT VEHICLE. It is the TRANSPORT vehicle that moves on, the unit inside the vehicle isnt moving by the Game Definition of "moving" (except for the purpose of firing, before your obtusiveness strikes again, as this is given a specific mention) as if they were movign they would be restricted to their own movement value.

As said; You seem to believe, incorrectly, that a tranpsort vehicle is bound by the rules of the unit inside. THe unit inside cannot constrain the vehicle, otherwise no transport vehicle could move over 6" when carrying troops. This is the position your "RAW" results in.

Oh wait, here it would be "obvious" so you would go with RAI. Good one.

The vets aren't arriving from the rear table edge - check.
The vets are outflanking? No. The vets are not outflanking.

The vets are deploying from their transport vehicle.

If I hold a transport vehicle with troops inside it in reserve, only the transport vehyicle comes in from reserve. The troops come on from their transport.

Primarch wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Primarch wrote:
For number 2, finally a real argument. Since deepstriking doesnt require Infiltrate or Scout.....

It DOES however, require a unit to have the DS rule.

and the deepstriking rules specifically mention disembarking from a deep striking transport.

But they don't say "A unit without DS may still deploy via a transport using DS rules.", which is what you require for outflank. If one were to use your criteria, then if any unit embarked on a transport were to attempt an unconventional deployment method, both must have the ability to do so, whether it's outflank, Deepstrike, or anything else. You can't require specificity in one rule and not in the other.

The fact is, there is a set of rules which let you deploy from reserves inside a non-dedicated transport, and no restrictions on what method that transport may use to enter the board, providing it has the special rules to do so.

Depends on how deep you want to go with this. I could argue that the Marines ability to take a Transport that CAN ONLY Deepstrike is itself a rule that allows them to deep strike.

Snip

The Pod is completely(damn near) useless if it can't carry troops onto the board using deep strike. The Vendetta can deploy in all kinds of ways, and has a certain option, if criteria are met, that allows it to Outflank.
Clay

Let me quote the DA FAQ for Droppods:

Dark Angels FAQ wrote:Q. Can troops deploying from a Dark Angels
Drop Pod assault on the turn it lands? Unlike
the Space Marines and Black Templars codexes,
it does not state you cannot.
A. No the embarked troops can’t assault, as they
have deployed by deep strike that turn and
troops that deep strike can’t assault.

From this statement it is clear that the Dev's agree with you (as do I): it doesn't matter that the transport is the unit with the special rule, if a unit is inside when it deploys, that unit also counts as having deployed in said manner. But it also states that the devs disagree with you: Since the Marines riding inside the pod don't actually HAVE the DS rule they shouldn't be able to deploy from the pod in the first place. Since there is no rule specifically stating that Drop Pods confer Deepstrike to the units riding within, we have to assume that transports automatically confer their special deployment rules to transported units.

And yes the rules are permissive. With a permissive ruleset you are not allowed to use the 'doesn't say I can't' argument, but you are allowed to use the 'it says I can, until it says I can't' argument.


The rules permit units to be deployed inside non-dedicated transports while held in reserve.
The rules permit non-dedicated transports to deploy according to their special rules.
The rules permit units inside transports to enter play with the transport, even if it is using a special rule which the transported unit doesn't have (as shown above).
The rules do not restrict units from entering play via special deployment inside a transport, even if they normally couldn't do so, as long as the transport itself is entering play legally.

The RAI is pretty clear. Why is no one reading the difference in these 2 options?

This is a slippery slope. I agree that the RAI is clear in the case of the pods, but with the valkyrie, we can't be sure. It is a transport, it's non-dedicated, and the rules (including it's own mind you) do not prohibit it from using outflank while carrying a unit without the proper rules to do so on it's own. From all of this I conclude that the RAI is for Valks to deliver IG to the battlefield via any and all of it's own special rules.

Well, it seems that no one is convincing anyone else, and apparently I am alone in my stance. Such is life. Thanks for all the input guys.



Clay