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Nope your correct, its just earlier in the 86 pages, both are overcosted and underperforming. As is much of the vanilla marine codex, without a few gimmick builds.

Trickster12 wrote:
Hello

Not a lot of opinions of the terminators or centurions? (very sorry if I failed using the ´search´ -ability...)

Am I the only one who thinks centurions are waay too costly for what they do? No near the power of obliterators.

Terminators (assault and normal) also feel pretty pricey, for the survivability they bring or have I missed something?

No one really talks about either unit because they're both pretty weak. You're right about them costing too much for what they do.

I don't think Assault Centurions are terribly priced but they aren't great either. The Devastator variant is paying for the sins of the last two editions, but Terminators don't have the same excuse.

Trickster12 wrote:
Hello

Not a lot of opinions of the terminators or centurions? (very sorry if I failed using the ´search´ -ability...)

Am I the only one who thinks centurions are waay too costly for what they do? No near the power of obliterators.

Terminators (assault and normal) also feel pretty pricey, for the survivability they bring or have I missed something?

You're in the same boat as everyone. Terminators and to a smaller extent Centurions right now simply don't justify their costs. Centurions - at the very least - can do some damage. Vanilla terminators typically do heck-all and Assault terminators, while killy, are really slow and hard to get into melee.

Now that most of the main faction codexes are out, my space marine army hasn't hit a table in months. I've been playing mechanicus because marines just simply don't compete at all. I don't view a frustrating uphill climb as a fun use of my time these days.

Are you going to redesign your list?

 Primark G wrote:
Are you going to redesign your list?

I designed a list as competitive as I could to deal with topping lists and I'm still doing meh, whereas at least with CSM I have more tools available. Allies doesn't cut it as, at that point, I can get rid of almost all Space Marines.

I've been redesigning my lists constantly. Even taking out things that I previously thought were must-takes like Helbrecht. The only time I have ever succeeded was using Blood Angel rules against an index Dark Eldar army. My Templars have literally not won a single game since Chapter Approved came out.

I have primaris stuff, decent amount of crusader bodies, jump troops, terminators, a leviathan dread, quad mortars, bikers, scouts, lascannons, razorbacks. The only things I really don't have are predators, the AA tanks, land speeders, vindicators, and Centurions. And some of the forgeworld stuff like Sicaran tanks.

Why bring a predator when a leman russ fires twice? Or an Onager Dunecrawler D3 times with min 3 damage on a Neutron Laser?

Why bring Space Marines when my Skitarii infantry can gain a 3+ through the use of a special ability that I can easily manipulate through use of characters and stratagems? And they have a 6+ invuln. And they have arguably better guns. The only thing marines really have over them is T4 and Ld 8. Both of which often just do not matter.

Why bring any kind of Space Marine close combat unit, when I literally have better close combat units in the Adeptus Mechanicus? Have you seen the horrid things that a unit of 10 electro priests do to just about anything with all of those mortal wounds? The speed and power of Dragoons, the sheer weight of attacks of Sicarian Infiltrators with Taser goads, especially when buffed with the +1 to hit stratagem?

It's a sad state of affairs now that my local meta has been doing so much power gaming lately. I want to go back to the index days when everything was experimental and people ran anything.

/rant

Yeah toughness 4 is pretty worthless for what you pay for it when compared to T3. You take 33% less damage from S3, 25% less from S4, S5 is the same, 20% more from S6/7, and S8+ is the same. Poison weapons are also the same.

There is a reason that 9 point sisters are so much better value than 13 point Marines. GW thinks +1 T, S, and WS is worth 4 points, and it simply isn't.

So I took my army to the tournament yesterday. 4 games is a lot in a day! It was ITC format, using a maelstrom and an eternal war mission at once, with the players sharing 20 tournament points depending on the margin of victory.

Game one was a bit of a disaster. Up against IG with a brigade and a shadowsword, and he won the roll off for first turn. So the shadowsword killed both my repulsors before my captain could slap it down and I ended up losing 13:7. It could have been a lot worse.

Game 2 was against another brigade, this time of orks. 6 big blobs, 45 stormboyz, assorted characters and cannons to fill out slots. This went a lot better as I got first turn and killed his big 25 man stormboy unit - and his warboss sheltered behind. Things tipped back a bit after he got to do da jump to charge 30 boyz I’m on his turn, trapping my aggressors with a consolidation move. But my repulsors were having fun mowing down the orks following behind, which were hampered by terrain into an 18” gap. Those that got through were smashed in combat. We only got to play 3 turns, though by that time well over half of the orks were dead. I won 13:7, though it would have been a lot more after another turn.

His last move was to have one weirdboy use da jump to send 30 boys to his other weirdboy, to do a smite on my captain. And he did 6 mortal wounds, killing him outright! That was certainly orky.

Game 3 was against a nurgle daemon/soup mix. 56 plaguebearers, 3 blight haulers, a DP, epidemics and assorted other characters, 2x3 obliterators with two trees. I went first and blew up a hauler, but didn’t do much to the plaguebearers. Things improved when he charged my aggressors with the PBs and daemon Prince - they shot 3 wounds off the prince with overwatch, the plaguebearers killed one, then I interrupted and killed the DP. Good times! His obliterators whiffed mostly, and again I was gaining control of the board, but the time ran out. He was able to snaffle some late objectives, making it a very narrow win for me. Again I’d have won by more if we’d continued, with the obliterators and one hauler the only remaining threats. I had very few casualties in this game and only gave up 2 units to the tally.

The final game was also against nurgle, but a totally different list. He had morty, typhus, a couple of units of plague marines and a forgeworld Walker thing in a dreadclaw, with guns that caused mortal wounds. Bit weird. He didn’t have many drops so I had to pile all my characters into repulsors, which worked to get me first turn. I shot Morty dead, which was nice, then shot most of his other stuff dead too. Finished with the day’s biggest win, by 15 vps.

So I learned a few things about my list, and other stuff:

Shadowswords are awesome, and kryptonite to me. I’d have had a good chance with first turn, l think, but without it that was awful.

Aggressors are a mixed bag. They actually did all right in most games. Interrupting to kill the DP was awesome. Oddly they weren’t that good against the orks, as going within 18” of one unit meant being at risk from others. Those 30 man units were able to consolidate into them after charging Something else.

On the other hand, the repulsors were awesome against the orks and daemons, and very good against the plague marines. Neither of them suffered much damage in either game and they massacred stuff all round. Having them charge those big blobs to tie them up is extremely useful.

The deredeo actually did pretty well. It could always shoot at something useful, so where a las mortis would have been pretty weak against the orks it was shooting 10 of them dead per turn. The 36” range on its anvillus autocannons (which is really odd) was sometimes a problem. Overall I’d rate it as fine but not a must-have. If I’d take the 5++ bubble though it might have helped against the shadowsword... a little.

The hellblasters were great, especially with a captain and librarian around. They were perfectly happy to charge in against orks and plaguebearers too, which made the difference between a few guys surviving to pin me and all of them being dead.

The ancient was ok. It was the first time I’d used him. Overall I’d say he’s a “nice to have”. If I have the points, I’ll take him again.

Not too sure about the librarian, if it came down to him vs the lieutenant. He never got null zone off and might of heroes never made much difference.

Lacking anything fast or deep striking was a pain, especially in maelstrom. It also meant opponents didn’t have to protect back-line units. I need to fix that.

Overall I think that a fire raptor would be the biggest single improvement I could take. And I’ll also look at whether I can fit in some reivers, inceptors or something.

Just realized something depressing. I know I go on a rant about Berzerkers compared to our melee units a lot, but this is just...

20 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans (assuming 4 squads of 5 to maximize Sergeants, so best-case scenario) being buffed by Helbrecht output 16.6 dead MEQ on the charge (84*(8/9)*(2/3)*(1/3)).

10 World Eaters Khorne Berzerzerkers in an axe/chainsword configuration do 16.5 dead MEQ on the charge (61*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/2)+20*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/3)).

180 points of Khorne Berzerkers (assuming Icon, but come on, of course you have one) performs roughly on-par with 320 points of Vanguard Veterans supported by a 170-point buff unit when we're stacking the odds in favour of the Vanguard Veterans. Sure, if Helbrecht gets to swing as well we pull ahead slightly of the Berzerkers, but come on.

There's no amout of "adapting" or "reconstructing my list" that's going to change that this is absolutely ludicrous. I don't mind Khorne Berzerkers being absolute monsters in melee (they SHOULD be, they're finally where they should always have been IMO), but they also shouldn't be more than twice as good as something for the same price.

Sure, I could buy Hellblasters and Aggressors and go shooting-heavy, but:

A) I'd essentially have to buy a completely new army. I'd much rather spend that time and effort just expanding my Khorne army instead. You know, the one that doesn't have rules written by an inept potato.

B) Even if we disregard A, why on Earth would I play my hypothetical new Primaris marines as Black Templars? Literally any other Chapter that isn't White Scars would be better. No amount of "adapting" is going to change that either.

Extra shout-out to the people who moaned and whined about how Black Templars should just be folded into the Vanilla Codex and how it "wouldn't be so bad" because "at least you'd have access to the same stuff as Vanilla marines have!" back in 5th edition. Thanks chaps. Well done.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
There's no amout of "adapting" or "reconstructing my list" that's going to change that this is absolutely ludicrous. I don't mind Khorne Berzerkers being absolute monsters in melee (they SHOULD be, they're finally where they should always have been IMO), but they also shouldn't be more than twice as good as something for the same price.

And now you realize the crux of the issue;

GW either doesn't know how to, or doesn't care to, do math.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just realized something depressing. I know I go on a rant about Berzerkers compared to our melee units a lot, but this is just...

20 double-chainsword Vanguard Veterans (assuming 4 squads of 5 to maximize Sergeants, so best-case scenario) being buffed by Helbrecht output 16.6 dead MEQ on the charge (84*(8/9)*(2/3)*(1/3)).

10 World Eaters Khorne Berzerzerkers in an axe/chainsword configuration do 16.5 dead MEQ on the charge (61*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/2)+20*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/3)).

180 points of Khorne Berzerkers (assuming Icon, but come on, of course you have one) performs roughly on-par with 320 points of Vanguard Veterans supported by a 170-point buff unit when we're stacking the odds in favour of the Vanguard Veterans. Sure, if Helbrecht gets to swing as well we pull ahead slightly of the Berzerkers, but come on.

There's no amout of "adapting" or "reconstructing my list" that's going to change that this is absolutely ludicrous. I don't mind Khorne Berzerkers being absolute monsters in melee (they SHOULD be, they're finally where they should always have been IMO), but they also shouldn't be more than twice as good as something for the same price.

Sure, I could buy Hellblasters and Aggressors and go shooting-heavy, but:

A) I'd essentially have to buy a completely new army. I'd much rather spend that time and effort just expanding my Khorne army instead. You know, the one that doesn't have rules written by an inept potato.

B) Even if we disregard A, why on Earth would I play my hypothetical new Primaris marines as Black Templars? Literally any other Chapter that isn't White Scars would be better. No amount of "adapting" is going to change that either.

Extra shout-out to the people who moaned and whined about how Black Templars should just be folded into the Vanilla Codex and how it "wouldn't be so bad" because "at least you'd have access to the same stuff as Vanilla marines have!" back in 5th edition. Thanks chaps. Well done.

I know the vanilla codex sucks, but it isn't like the original Black Templars were any good either.

Of course I'm the person that wanted them rolled in with Blood and Dark Angels too, though that's an issue when, out of the three, the more deviating chapter gets rolled in.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I know the vanilla codex sucks, but it isn't like the original Black Templars were any good either.

You say that, but it wasn't actually that much worse once the FAQ hit in 5th, just different.

And at least the melee units were better than those of a Chapter known for their tactical flexibility...

So, I made a third and last try at a list able ton manage hords of cheap infantry, trying new models (heavy bolters devastator, that are quite cheap in fact !). Again, 9 cp, but I don't have the thunderfire to slow the genestealers, and I don't think I can fight as good as with my previous list against a no hords list. Chronus is here because he is a cheap 4th HQ:



And an alternative in which the razorbacks and devastators switch their role:

I think I prefer this one ?

Oh boy, lots to respond to. Here comes the Space Marine Defense Force or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Emperor.

 ultimentra wrote:
Why bring a predator when a leman russ fires twice? Or an Onager Dunecrawler D3 times with min 3 damage on a Neutron Laser?

1. AdMech has the best vehicles. I think this is just something we're going to have to live with within the fluff.
2. Leman Russ is tougher, but also has a more limited range. Predators can get 4 lascannons whereas Russ's can only get 1, and that lascannon hits on 4s. It can't even shoot it twice, since Grinding Advance only lets it shoot the turret weapon twice. You can also get access to Space Marine stratagems like Killshot (amazing) and of course you won't be able to use your captain to help your dunecrawler reroll.

2. Leman Russ is tougher, but also has a more limited range. Predators can get 4 lascannons whereas Russ's can only get 1, and that lascannon hits on 4s. It can't even shoot it twice, since Grinding Advance only lets it shoot the turret weapon twice. You can also get access to Space Marine stratagems like Killshot (amazing) and of course you won't be able to use your captain to help your dunecrawler reroll.

4 Lascannons is not at all amazing when lots of big things are running around with invuln saves these days. Including Dunecrawlers. Yeah killshot is cool, but you need all 3 predators to do it. If your opponent can kill one of them turn one, your strategy is dead. Predators die easily. Tech Priest Dominus has a 6'' re roll 1s aura. Lets not even talk about Cawl at this point.

Again, one of the issues is range. 24" vs 18", even if you're only getting one shot. Also, anything that ignores cover is going to rip through your shroudpsalm right into your squishy 3T 4+ body, and marines in cover manage to enjoy a 2+ armor save, while still managing to hold on to heavy weapons. I doubt you'll ever see a Dunecrawler successfully utilize cover.

It's 18'' on an assault 3 weapon. Rangers have a 30'' Rapid Fire 1 weapon that is -1 ap on a 6 to wound. The Rad Carbine causes 2 wounds on a 6. Strictly better than any bolter. The Plasma Caliver is also superior to the Plasma Gun. The only thing Skitarii lack is a flamer type weapon that they make up for with pure weight of fire. Each guy firing 3 shots puts out a lot firepower, you have to see it to believe it.

Ignores cover is not at all common in 8th edition. The only races that have wide access to it are Mechanicus, Imperial Fists, and Iron Warriors.

Marines in cover? Ignore them because they aren't going to do anything but sit there and be expensive for what they're doing. Which is nothing. They have inferior firepower. They have inferior CC skill. They are inferior in every way right now.

What does a Dunecrawler utilizing cover have anything to do with this? They can count as being in cover with Shroudpsalm, and most heavy weaponry shooting at them will go straight to the 5+ invuln anyways. It doesn't matter.

Mobility. Electropriests are nothing but bolter fodder since they can't take a transport, and even if you use a stratagem to deep strike them they can't reroll charges, so more often than not they're just going to be shot to gak. Dragoons are powerful, yes, but expensive, and not as tanky as people give them credit for, especially vs Marines who will be hitting them on 4s. Shoot them with Autocannons (especially Predator Autocannons) or assault cannons. They also have no innate defense against heavy hitters in melee that manage to successfully charge them. Thunder Hammers will wipe Dragoons off the board.

Electropriests can use Clandestine Infiltration, and if you get first turn whatever you charge will melt, and all the sudden they now have a 3+ invuln save and 5+ to ignore damage. No, they actually are not bolter fodder and you have obviously either never played Mechanicus or never played against a Mechanicus player who knows what they're doing. Outside Stygies VIII they can be used as a counter-charge unit for when you know you are going to be fighting a melee army.

What the hell? Dragoons are not at all expensive! They're 68 points! And if you're taking Stygies VIII they're -2 to hit outside 12''. Also, I would love to see some Terminators or other thunder hammer bearers go up against a large squad of Dragoons and see how it works out. Hey guess what, not only am I cheaper and faster than any thunder hammer terminator, and only slightly less than a Jump Pack marine with one, but guess what? I wound you on 2s, I insta kill terminators because I cause two damage, and my 3 attacks can easily turn into a hell of a lot more with the Taser rule and a stratagem giving a squadron of Dragoons +2 to hit. So no, your thunder hammer can sit down. Because guess what, unless you're talking about a sergeant or a captain, the max attacks you're getting out of that Thunder Hammer is 2. Which only one of those are likely to hit because you take -1, and then you still have to wound a Dragoon on 3. And guess what else, I still get a 6+ invuln save against it! How's that feel? Not very good!

Well, as you say Khorne Berzerkers should be the kings of melee, and they are, but you're missing a few details, both about the zerks and about the Vanguard.

1. Vanguard have access to special weapons. Yes, you're paying for them, but it gives them the opportunity to be a far more specialized unit and fill a different role that zerks can't.
2. Vanguard have access to jump packs. This allows them to deep strike and move insanely fast, able to jump from one target to the next, charge directly over screens to tie up tanks, and fall back and shoot their widdle pistols. Fall back and shoot isn't that great admittedly, but I have done some damage after falling back from something to tough for them to chew. They can also jump straight over terrain, so they have a safer approach. Deep strike them behind a wall, then move them in and charge. I very rarely lose a single model before getting into melee with my Veterans, whereas simply fielding Zerks runs the risk of them just getting shot to death, even if they take a Rhino.
3. Zerks second attack is at the very end of the fight phase. So it goes like this: Zerks charge, fight, get fought, lose models, then fight again. So your math isn't accounting for any models lost.

Yes Zerks in melee are a better unit, but if you spend your time thinking about what your army can't do you're never going to find out what it can.

Which in this case, what the army can do is, under the currently rules, be a somewhat effective gunline under Guilliman. Yes, we all get to pay the Guilliman tax. Marines are supposed to be the jack of trades of master none. Well this jack can't do jack gak right now. The Space Marines aren't resilient, they can't melee their way out of a paper bag, they don't have the same tactical options of the other factions in regards to Stratagems that actually have decent game impact, and for some odd reason GW decided that it would be far too powerful to allow our Chapter Tactics to apply to our vehicles, yet its perfectly fine for LITERALLY EVERY OTHER FACTION.

Just. No. Don't try to tell me that Marines are fine. They are very clearly not. The vast consensus is that vanilla marines are among the least powerful armies in the game right now in just about any circle that isn't focused on narrative play. Marine players that are having to deal with an optimized meta, at least marines of the Black and White variety, are struggling currently. Don't try to tell me that this is simply not the case because you're just straight up wrong.

 SputnikDX wrote:


1. Vanguard have access to special weapons. Yes, you're paying for them, but it gives them the opportunity to be a far more specialized unit and fill a different role that zerks can't.

That's not actually true. The Khorne Berzerkers outperform special weapon-wielding Vanguard Veterans as well. Running the same assumption as in my previous post except the Vanguard Veterans run chainsword/power sword instead of double chainsword, they kill a tad over 25 MEQ. It's well ahead of the ~15.5 of the Khorne Berzerkers, but then it's also 610 points to the Khorne Berzerkers' 180. You could get another 20 Khorne Berzerkers and still have points left over. The better AP from special weapons don't outweigh the fact that the Berzerkers have 102857102974 attacks. Berzerkers outfight their points in Vanguard Veterans against anything regardless of the setup of the Vanguard Veterans barring extreme edge cases like TH Vanguard Veterans charging T8 targets (and paying 30 PPM for a Marine body with a Thunder Hammer is a good way to lose the game).

It gets even worse against GEQ since the Berzerkers can benefit from the S6 of their Chainaxes.

 SputnikDX wrote:


2. Vanguard have access to jump packs. This allows them to deep strike and move insanely fast, able to jump from one target to the next, charge directly over screens to tie up tanks, and fall back and shoot their widdle pistols. Fall back and shoot isn't that great admittedly, but I have done some damage after falling back from something to tough for them to chew. They can also jump straight over terrain, so they have a safer approach. Deep strike them behind a wall, then move them in and charge. I very rarely lose a single model before getting into melee with my Veterans, whereas simply fielding Zerks runs the risk of them just getting shot to death, even if they take a Rhino.

If you're willing to drop 2 attacks on the charge you can just infiltrate Berzerkers. There's a reason why Alpha Legion Berzerkers have made a splash on the tournament scene and Vanguard Veterans haven't. Even without running them as Alpha Legion you could just get a Kharybdis or the new drill thingamabob to Deep Strike the Berzerkers. True, it's more expensive, but the Berzerkers still win in damage output regardless.

 SputnikDX wrote:

3. Zerks second attack is at the very end of the fight phase. So it goes like this: Zerks charge, fight, get fought, lose models, then fight again. So your math isn't accounting for any models lost.

They don't fight at the very end of the Fight phase; that's the stratagem. Berzerkers have nothing saying they fight again at the end of the Fight phase.

So it actually goes like this: Zerks charge, fight, fight again and then lose nothing because whatever was in their way is deader than a sack of dead mice, which is dead.

This isn't me just griping over how other armies get cooler stuff than me; I play Khorne as well, I know how much better Berzerkers are.

 ultimentra wrote:
4 Lascannons is not at all amazing when lots of big things are running around with invuln saves these days. Including Dunecrawlers. Yeah killshot is cool, but you need all 3 predators to do it. If your opponent can kill one of them turn one, your strategy is dead. Predators die easily. Tech Priest Dominus has a 6'' re roll 1s aura. Lets not even talk about Cawl at this point.

If 4 lascannons aren't amazing just because of Invuln than neither are Russes or Neutron Lasers. Until you find a vehicle that can pierce invuln at 48", you can't discount Lascannons because of invul saves without discounting everything else as well. And Killshot is very workable: just deploy your Predators behind LoS/outside of range of enemy big guns, then on your turn move them into range and activate it. Even hitting on 4s you're likely to slag whatever could have shot you. And bringing up the Captain aura is more to bring up your thought about allies.

 ultimentra wrote:
It's 18'' on an assault 3 weapon. Rangers have a 30'' Rapid Fire 1 weapon that is -1 ap on a 6 to wound. The Rad Carbine causes 2 wounds on a 6. Strictly better than any bolter. The Plasma Caliver is also superior to the Plasma Gun. The only thing Skitarii lack is a flamer type weapon that they make up for with pure weight of fire. Each guy firing 3 shots puts out a lot firepower, you have to see it to believe it.

18" isn't very good on a unit that's supposed to be on top of objectives, since they can't really do anything against someone unless they get close to them, and they get shredded by heavy bolters. Even stray bolter fire from 24" will take out a couple of them. And if you're complaining about Rangers, then just take Intercessors. Now you have a better weapon than a Galvanic rifle on a better model.

Plasma Calivers are really good. I'm also not here saying that AdMech is a bad army, but they have weaknesses that Space Marines can exploit.

 ultimentra wrote:
Ignores cover is not at all common in 8th edition. The only races that have wide access to it are Mechanicus, Imperial Fists, and Iron Warriors.

Marines in cover? Ignore them because they aren't going to do anything but sit there and be expensive for what they're doing. Which is nothing. They have inferior firepower. They have inferior CC skill. They are inferior in every way right now.

Ignore them? They're on an objective, getting points, and winning games. You can ignore them if you want, but they'll just be there holding on shooting at everyone unfortunate enough to footslog across the board.

 ultimentra wrote:
What does a Dunecrawler utilizing cover have anything to do with this? They can count as being in cover with Shroudpsalm, and most heavy weaponry shooting at them will go straight to the 5+ invuln anyways. It doesn't matter.

You missed my last point about Tacs holding heavy weapons in cover. Lascannons with 4 ablative wounds and 2+ armor are pretty good and pesky enough to deal with.

 ultimentra wrote:
Electropriests can use Clandestine Infiltration, and if you get first turn whatever you charge will melt, and all the sudden they now have a 3+ invuln save and 5+ to ignore damage. No, they actually are not bolter fodder and you have obviously either never played Mechanicus or never played against a Mechanicus player who knows what they're doing. Outside Stygies VIII they can be used as a counter-charge unit for when you know you are going to be fighting a melee army.

They can. If Admech gets turn one and uses that stratagem it's going to be a tricky game. If you're using old rules though, Admech will almost never get turn 1 since they can't minimize their drops with transports. If you're using ITC rules, you're going to have a tougher time, but you can play against that by having a forward screen of Scouts to keep Electropriests far, far away from your main force. And then Null Zone turns them into paper, even if they've leeched life.

If you're a melee army, you stay away from electro-priests. Again, they have 6" move, 3 toughness, and demon saves. Walk away from them and shoot them.

 ultimentra wrote:
What the hell? Dragoons are not at all expensive! They're 68 points! And if you're taking Stygies VIII they're -2 to hit outside 12''. Also, I would love to see some Terminators or other thunder hammer bearers go up against a large squad of Dragoons and see how it works out. Hey guess what, not only am I cheaper and faster than any thunder hammer terminator, and only slightly less than a Jump Pack marine with one, but guess what? I wound you on 2s, I insta kill terminators because I cause two damage, and my 3 attacks can easily turn into a hell of a lot more with the Taser rule and a stratagem giving a squadron of Dragoons +2 to hit. So no, your thunder hammer can sit down. Because guess what, unless you're talking about a sergeant or a captain, the max attacks you're getting out of that Thunder Hammer is 2. Which only one of those are likely to hit because you take -1, and then you still have to wound a Dragoon on 3. And guess what else, I still get a 6+ invuln save against it! How's that feel? Not very good!

According to Mathhammer, a 5 man TH/SS Veteran Squad with Chapter Master rerolls for Shrike or Helbrecht deals 12 wounds to Dragoons 63% of the time. At that point the dragoon player is risking losing a 68 point model to morale if you didn't just entirely wipe the squad to begin with. 195 points just did 272 points worth of damage. I've done it before and it was awesome.

Positioning, positioning, positioning. Either don't let them charge you, or if that fails, don't let them charge anything important.

 ultimentra wrote:
Which in this case, what the army can do is, under the currently rules, be a somewhat effective gunline under Guilliman. Yes, we all get to pay the Guilliman tax. Marines are supposed to be the jack of trades of master none. Well this jack can't do jack gak right now. The Space Marines aren't resilient, they can't melee their way out of a paper bag, they don't have the same tactical options of the other factions in regards to Stratagems that actually have decent game impact, and for some odd reason GW decided that it would be far too powerful to allow our Chapter Tactics to apply to our vehicles, yet its perfectly fine for LITERALLY EVERY OTHER FACTION.

Just. No. Don't try to tell me that Marines are fine. They are very clearly not. The vast consensus is that vanilla marines are among the least powerful armies in the game right now in just about any circle that isn't focused on narrative play. Marine players that are having to deal with an optimized meta, at least marines of the Black and White variety, are struggling currently. Don't try to tell me that this is simply not the case because you're just straight up wrong.

What the army can do and is designed to do is to be semi-effective in all aspects. Marines, to me, I find to be greater than the sum of their parts. I can take the same list and play it differently every time depending on who I'm fighting. Do I deploy aggressively or conservatively? Do I stick together under a Chapter Master blob or do I split my forces to focus on flanks/weak points/board control? My friends all play semi-competitively and they consider me really difficult to deal with. And I am playing a different black and white variety that I know is stronger than the other kind, so it's possible some of my points are moot.

If you're upset that you can't play your army competitively, then there's nothing I can really say. Yes, in a competitive environment where spam is the king and only specific scenarios and lists can even be considered optimal, Marines struggle. But if you want to compete, there are options that unfortunately you have to completely demolish your current list for and buy loads of models that will be outdated in likely a few days. If you want the meta to fall into your lap and everything you own to be competitive then you need to start wishing upon a star. I don't think anyone owned 7 flying hive tyrants before a few months ago.

But the tl;dr takeaway is - Marines are better than the sum of their parts. Just because Tacs are weak doesn't mean the entire army is too. You can't say "My army is weaker than X army because X's Y is better than my Y" since I guarantee I can find a Z that's better for Marines than their Z. Focus on what you have rather than what you don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 SputnikDX wrote:


1. Vanguard have access to special weapons. Yes, you're paying for them, but it gives them the opportunity to be a far more specialized unit and fill a different role that zerks can't.

That's not actually true. The Khorne Berzerkers outperform special weapon-wielding Vanguard Veterans as well. Running the same assumption as in my previous post except the Vanguard Veterans run chainsword/power sword instead of double chainsword, they kill a tad over 25 MEQ. It's well ahead of the ~15.5 of the Khorne Berzerkers, but then it's also 610 points to the Khorne Berzerkers' 180. You could get another 20 Khorne Berzerkers and still have points left over. The better AP from special weapons don't outweigh the fact that the Berzerkers have 102857102974 attacks. Berzerkers outfight their points in Vanguard Veterans against anything regardless of the setup of the Vanguard Veterans barring extreme edge cases like TH Vanguard Veterans charging T8 targets (and paying 30 PPM for a Marine body with a Thunder Hammer is a good way to lose the game).

It gets even worse against GEQ since the Berzerkers can benefit from the S6 of their Chainaxes.

 SputnikDX wrote:


2. Vanguard have access to jump packs. This allows them to deep strike and move insanely fast, able to jump from one target to the next, charge directly over screens to tie up tanks, and fall back and shoot their widdle pistols. Fall back and shoot isn't that great admittedly, but I have done some damage after falling back from something to tough for them to chew. They can also jump straight over terrain, so they have a safer approach. Deep strike them behind a wall, then move them in and charge. I very rarely lose a single model before getting into melee with my Veterans, whereas simply fielding Zerks runs the risk of them just getting shot to death, even if they take a Rhino.

If you're willing to drop 2 attacks on the charge you can just infiltrate Berzerkers. There's a reason why Alpha Legion Berzerkers have made a splash on the tournament scene and Vanguard Veterans haven't. Even without running them as Alpha Legion you could just get a Kharybdis or the new drill thingamabob to Deep Strike the Berzerkers. True, it's more expensive, but the Berzerkers still win in damage output regardless.

 SputnikDX wrote:

3. Zerks second attack is at the very end of the fight phase. So it goes like this: Zerks charge, fight, get fought, lose models, then fight again. So your math isn't accounting for any models lost.

They don't fight at the very end of the Fight phase; that's the stratagem. Berzerkers have nothing saying they fight again at the end of the Fight phase.

So it actually goes like this: Zerks charge, fight, fight again and then lose nothing because whatever was in their way is deader than a sack of dead mice, which is dead.

This isn't me just griping over how other armies get cooler stuff than me; I play Khorne as well, I know how much better Berzerkers are.

Ah damn, I was mistaken. Then my first point is kind of moot if Zerks get the charge, and so is my third. Then the biggest focus will be on the second point. Playing specifically Vanguard Veterans against Zerkers (especially small units of zerks) you can use the Veterans mobility to stay outside of charge range. AFAIK zerks can't advance and charge, so they have a realistic threat range of 12" compared to Veterans threat range of 18". Unless you fall into a checkmate, Vanguard Vets will always make the charge against Zerks, and that's where those special weapons will clean house. It's an uphill battle, sure, but just one you gotta deal with.

As to infiltrating zerks, you can deploy against that specifically as Marines. Most armies would crumble to that stratagem, but if you have enough scouts you can deploy them 18" away from your front line, giving zerks nowhere to infiltrate except 9" from your scouts which are 18" away from everything else. They charge scouts, kill 55 points worth of guys, then proceed to footslog the entire rest of the way to your gunline getting shot or chopped up.

I know Zerks are real, and really cheap, and definitely better than Vanguard Vets, but you can still play around them. I just feel Vets have more utility - movement is wicked strong imo.

Zerks fill a very different role than vvets. They are a melee glass cannon with no mobility options, while vvets are a flexible melee or ranged or both unit with high mobility.

It's probably better to compare zerks to death company, who have more mobility but less attacks, or to blood claws, who are cheaper, less killy versions of zerks.

None of that means that vvets are in a good spot, but that's mostly because all Marines cost too much by about 2 or 3 points.

I don't have much to add to what Walrus has already said. I certainly don't think Sputnik's attempt at a counterargument is winning anyone over who actually has experience with these units.

Marines in the next few months will be a lower-tier army, as their final few competitors for mid-tier obscurity level up with new codexes. Ah well, there's always Grey Knights to look down at I suppose!

I actually think that Primaris might see their own sneaky codex within a year, with a release of new models alongside. SM Codex has literally not one stratagem that benefits their units specifically (compared to scouts, bikers, heavy bolters, missile launchers, etc), and the codex overall is weaksauce. Instead of it getting reworked, I think we'll see Primaris get a big buff, with the SM codex staying as is, which will drive players into investing more in them.

 SputnikDX wrote:


Ah damn, I was mistaken. Then my first point is kind of moot if Zerks get the charge, and so is my third. Then the biggest focus will be on the second point. Playing specifically Vanguard Veterans against Zerkers (especially small units of zerks) you can use the Veterans mobility to stay outside of charge range. AFAIK zerks can't advance and charge, so they have a realistic threat range of 12" compared to Veterans threat range of 18". Unless you fall into a checkmate, Vanguard Vets will always make the charge against Zerks, and that's where those special weapons will clean house. It's an uphill battle, sure, but just one you gotta deal with.

As to infiltrating zerks, you can deploy against that specifically as Marines. Most armies would crumble to that stratagem, but if you have enough scouts you can deploy them 18" away from your front line, giving zerks nowhere to infiltrate except 9" from your scouts which are 18" away from everything else. They charge scouts, kill 55 points worth of guys, then proceed to footslog the entire rest of the way to your gunline getting shot or chopped up.

I know Zerks are real, and really cheap, and definitely better than Vanguard Vets, but you can still play around them. I just feel Vets have more utility - movement is wicked strong imo.

Oh, my point isn't that I can't outplay Berzerkers or that it's impossible to play around them, my point is that my Chapter's raison d'être is meaningless because it's trying to do the same thing melee Chaos does except much, much worse.

Regarding the mobility, Zerkers can drop down in a Kharybdis, get Warptime'd by a Sorcerer and then have to manage a 3" charge with rerolls. Sure, that's like 400 points, but that's STILL less than that damage output would be in Vanguard Veterans, and the best Vanguard can manage is a 52% chance of DS success.

On paper Berzerkers don't have a lot of mobility; in practice there's plenty of ways around that. That's why they're so good. Even then they're "merely" solid rather than broken.

Yeah, Chaos has reallllly good mobility options. Warptime alone puts it ahead of most armies in that department.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Oh, my point isn't that I can't outplay Berzerkers or that it's impossible to play around them, my point is that my Chapter's raison d'être is meaningless because it's trying to do the same thing melee Chaos does except much, much worse.

Regarding the mobility, Zerkers can drop down in a Kharybdis, get Warptime'd by a Sorcerer and then have to manage a 3" charge with rerolls. Sure, that's like 400 points, but that's STILL less than that damage output would be in Vanguard Veterans, and the best Vanguard can manage is a 52% chance of DS success.

On paper Berzerkers don't have a lot of mobility; in practice there's plenty of ways around that. That's why they're so good. Even then they're "merely" solid rather than broken.

Yeah Templars are kinda funky. Chaos has better melee while not really sacrificing any shooting to compensate. I don't think your Chapter Tactics needs to completely define your entire army, hence why I run a lot of dedicated melee as Raven Guard even if it nullifies their tactic, but I think BT are in the bottom half of the Space Marine tiers, and Crusader Squads don't really make up for the lack of Psykers.

Heck even as an ultramarine player(who have the benifit of alot of charictors and Bobby G) the codex is very weak. If I don't build my list around Bobby G he is unfortunately just one massive points sink, that adds very little. Personally I hate the way GW have writen his rules hes supposed to be the strategic, logistics genius. How exactly does reroll's upon rerolls for units around him reflect that? Also writing him as the reroll king feels like it has led GW to balance unit based on them always being in his bubble, which is impossible and stupid. Right now if you want to build an even semi competative list of pure marines, I hope you like resin as you'll need a lot of Forgeworld.

If 4 lascannons aren't amazing just because of Invuln than neither are Russes or Neutron Lasers. Until you find a vehicle that can pierce invuln at 48", you can't discount Lascannons because of invul saves without discounting everything else as well. And Killshot is very workable: just deploy your Predators behind LoS/outside of range of enemy big guns, then on your turn move them into range and activate it. Even hitting on 4s you're likely to slag whatever could have shot you. And bringing up the Captain aura is more to bring up your thought about allies.

You can't count on being able to hide 3 Predators out of LOS. Arguing this is making way too many assumptions. That's a fail right there, I get that you tried but no. Also, Dunecrawlers don't take -1 for moving and shooting, and Leman Russes fire their cannon twice if they move under half distance, and the cannon doesn't suffer the -1 for moving either. Predators suck man, sorry to tell you. I realize that you're in denial but that's just reality man. You cannot count on kill shot. What you can count on is that Dunecrawlers will deal minimum 3 damage on their damage roll.

18" isn't very good on a unit that's supposed to be on top of objectives, since they can't really do anything against someone unless they get close to them, and they get shredded by heavy bolters. Even stray bolter fire from 24" will take out a couple of them. And if you're complaining about Rangers, then just take Intercessors. Now you have a better weapon than a Galvanic rifle on a better model.

LOL here you are again, not even realizing how good 18'' range actually is on an assault weapon. Again, you seriously have zero idea how the Mechanicus operates on the table top. You've never played the faction and have probably never played against it. Your ignorance here shows that. Vanguard aren't for sitting on objectives, they are for advancing forward and providing a screen. Rangers sit on objectives. Intercessors? Really? That's your answer? my god I'm actually laughing over here. My Vanguard advanced up the table, got into range of your intercessors, oh my look at those sixes to wound on the Rad carbines! Each failed save is one dead Primaris buddy! What a joke.

Ignore them? They're on an objective, getting points, and winning games. You can ignore them if you want, but they'll just be there holding on shooting at everyone unfortunate enough to footslog across the board.

Yep and their shooting is doing nothing, literally bouncing at range. Once your supposed predators are easily dealt with, the marines come next. Guess what Dakkabots do to marines in cover? It isn't pretty.

You missed my last point about Tacs holding heavy weapons in cover. Lascannons with 4 ablative wounds and 2+ armor are pretty good and pesky enough to deal with.

Maybe for an army that doesn't have any kind of high rate of fire weaponry. One Lascannon? Oh how my bionic legs quiver in fear of your single lascannon. Oh how terrifying. It's almost as if my entire army doesn't have any kind of invuln save, and there's no way for my support units to repair my vehicles! How could I ever deal with such firepower?

They can. If Admech gets turn one and uses that stratagem it's going to be a tricky game. If you're using old rules though, Admech will almost never get turn 1 since they can't minimize their drops with transports. If you're using ITC rules, you're going to have a tougher time, but you can play against that by having a forward screen of Scouts to keep Electropriests far, far away from your main force. And then Null Zone turns them into paper, even if they've leeched life.

1) Nobody uses the old rules, the first turn literally changed with Chapter Approved. 2) If you're running transports with your marine army to get less drops, be my guest! Please! More points you've spent that can be easily destroyed!
2) Oh no you've used scouts and null zone to counter my electro priests! Looks like I'll just have to use the rest of my army to sweep you because my army isn't overcosted. Too bad.

If you're a melee army, you stay away from electro-priests. Again, they have 6" move, 3 toughness, and demon saves. Walk away from them and shoot them.

See above. I shoot better.

According to Mathhammer, a 5 man TH/SS Veteran Squad with Chapter Master rerolls for Shrike or Helbrecht deals 12 wounds to Dragoons 63% of the time. At that point the dragoon player is risking losing a 68 point model to morale if you didn't just entirely wipe the squad to begin with. 195 points just did 272 points worth of damage. I've done it before and it was awesome.

Positioning, positioning, positioning. Either don't let them charge you, or if that fails, don't let them charge anything important.

I could use the same argument about positioning. Lets see those Veterans survive a trek across the board shall we? I've shot down plenty of jump pack marines since the beginning of 8th edition I don't have any problem with continuing to do it. As long as I'm keeping positioning and terrain in mind, you won't get a charge off. Because guess what, I don't have to come to you. You have to come to me. Because if you don't, you will get swept by robots of doom. My dragoons can literally sit there and wait for you as part of my screen.

Even if you get the first turn to shoot at the robots with kill shot, you better hope and pray that you at least kill two of them through the 4+ invulnerable save they have. Because if you don't, you're dead in the water. No amount of maneuvering will save those predators from the return fire.

What the army can do and is designed to do is to be semi-effective in all aspects. Marines, to me, I find to be greater than the sum of their parts. I can take the same list and play it differently every time depending on who I'm fighting. Do I deploy aggressively or conservatively? Do I stick together under a Chapter Master blob or do I split my forces to focus on flanks/weak points/board control? My friends all play semi-competitively and they consider me really difficult to deal with. And I am playing a different black and white variety that I know is stronger than the other kind, so it's possible some of my points are moot.

If you're upset that you can't play your army competitively, then there's nothing I can really say. Yes, in a competitive environment where spam is the king and only specific scenarios and lists can even be considered optimal, Marines struggle. But if you want to compete, there are options that unfortunately you have to completely demolish your current list for and buy loads of models that will be outdated in likely a few days. If you want the meta to fall into your lap and everything you own to be competitive then you need to start wishing upon a star. I don't think anyone owned 7 flying hive tyrants before a few months ago.

But the tl;dr takeaway is - Marines are better than the sum of their parts. Just because Tacs are weak doesn't mean the entire army is too. You can't say "My army is weaker than X army because X's Y is better than my Y" since I guarantee I can find a Z that's better for Marines than their Z. Focus on what you have rather than what you don't.

My whole point is that given GW's statements on how they will be curating the state of the game in consideration to match play, I should be able to optimize a Space Marine list and have a reasonable expectation of an even/winning game against an equally optimized list. You keep telling me, multiple times, that space marines are fine. But they are clearly not. I'm not talking about 7 hive tyrants, I'm talking about fighting a list that actually has teeth. If I have to actually explain to you what that is, then that tells me you haven't been playing this game for very long. With a space marine list, I currently do not have a reasonable expectation of an even game or victory unless my opponent massively misplays. Even then, there are certain armies like Imperial Guard and now Tyranids where they essentially play themselves.

Marines lose at the list building phase of the game because the codex is currently inferior. The units are overpriced. The stratagems are not powerful or reliable. I laugh at your assertion that you can find a "z" that is better for marines when compared to anything but an index army. Hell, Sisters of Battle are a superior army currently, and they are an index army.

Must be nice playing the tier 1 vanilla chapter, getting -1 to hit and all. Wouldn't it be nice if you got that on your vehicles as well?

I think its obvious at this point that neither of us are going to be willing to budge from how we feel. I'm not going to convince you any time soon, nor are you going to convince me. You can go ahead and respond but I won't be continuing the conversation. It's not going to go anywhere.

I get the whole 'stop whining and figure out how to make the most of what marines have to offer' sort of mindset that people have, and I 100% think that is exactly what most of us who still play marines are doing. I also think that GW is doing the best they have ever done thus far when it comes to 8th edition, overall balance, community support, reactive FAQs, updates, etc. It is definitely easy to look past all this and only come across as being upset at the issues there still are.

However, I think it is clear that there are still a number of balance issues with the SM codex and others, and blindly ignoring them is not really what i see as the constructive answer here, especially when it now seems like GW actually wants to know about and fix these issues. If anything, talking about them from a constructive mindset and making GW aware of these issues seems like the best course of action. We all love this game and want it to be better.

All that being said, I find it strange when people say things like:

"AdMech has the best vehicles. I think this is just something we're going to have to live with within the fluff." or "just because Tacs are weak doesn't mean the entire army is too."

It isn't an issue of a single Russ or Dunecrawler being better than a single predator. I think we would be fine with one tank being better than another tank, but they would both need to be worth what we are paying for them. The issue is that in general, when they compare them to the wider meta of the game, people aren't finding the predator to be worth it's points for a variety of reasons (I believe the main issue people have is their durability). If you don't think this is the case, then that's fine and i think most people would be interested in your option, but I don't think "it's okay if a unit is bad" is ever a good opinion to have.

If tacs are weak from a balance perspective, but the army is able to still be good despite them (most likely because people are just using other units), there is still the issue of tacs being weak. It's fine to say that you think people should still play the army and do what they can to win (which i agree with 100%), but we can still focus on the issue of tacs being weak. In a perfect world, every unit would be perfectly balanced, and worth using in some form in some type of list, and i think it's okay to push towards that as much as possible. Tactical squads are a core part of this game, people like them, and have spent time, energy, and money on them. Thus them being weak is a problem worth having a conversation about. And this goes for any other unit that is currently not seeing much play due to some kind of balance issue.

The more units that are worth playing, the more models people buy, and the better the game is. So i don't think there is ever a reason not to try and move these kinds of conversations forward.

Personally, when I look at the changes to things like 1) The wound chart (which typically makes it better to be T3 than T4 with how much being T4 costs), 2) The way saves are now modified by AP (which effects models with good saves more than it does ones with bad saves), 3) The removal of +1 attack on the change (which means marines do consistently less damage), and 4) The removal of being able to auto fall back in the morale phase, marines have taken a number of hits to their effectiveness. We can debate how right i am on these points, but if i am right about any them, then the answer seems to be either a points reduction or a increase in effectiveness for marines, or more likely both of these things, in order to have each unit feel like they are worth taking in some form in some style of list. And this same mindset should be used for all codexes, for the betterment of the game.

Personally the biggest letdown in the codex is its morbidly poor stratagems. Marines should be the kings of strats, they should reflect the centuries of drills, experience, tactical acumen and the physical superiority of humanity's greatest bully boys. Instead they are limp beyond compare, easily the worst of any codex. I mean, GKs got the actual worst codex in 8th, but their stratagems are still much better than Marines'. Screw them up, throw them away, and start again, would be my ideal.

 ultimentra wrote:
blah blah blah

Alright, I'm just gonna stop here. 1st off I've played against Admech more than any army, so my experience with them is precisely why I know I can beat them. 2nd, I'm just not going to bother with you if you're just going to act like a prick. If you can't win while I can win, then there's got to be something different between us and I have a feeling it's attitude.

jcd386 wrote:
"AdMech has the best vehicles. I think this is just something we're going to have to live with within the fluff." or "just because Tacs are weak doesn't mean the entire army is too."

It isn't an issue of a single Russ or Dunecrawler being better than a single predator. I think we would be fine with one tank being better than another tank, but they would both need to be worth what we are paying for them. The issue is that in general, when they compare them to the wider meta of the game, people aren't finding the predator to be worth it's points for a variety of reasons (I believe the main issue people have is their durability). If you don't think this is the case, then that's fine and i think most people would be interested in your option, but I don't think "it's okay if a unit is bad" is ever a good opinion to have.

At its base cost (90), Dunecrawlers are a better option than Predators - period. They can move and shoot without penalty, and have a 5++, with the only thing missing being 2" from your move which you won't miss. However, I don't find them to be as destructive as Lascannon Predators after playing multiple games with them. 1d3 means you usually need 2 dunecrawlers to slag a tank in a single turn compared to the 4 guaranteed shots. They're tougher, ironically more mobile, but the firepower of a Predator Annihilator is unmatched at 48" barring Forgeworld and maybe some Eldar and Tau stuff I don't know about.

jcd386 wrote:
If tacs are weak from a balance perspective, but the army is able to still be good despite them (most likely because people are just using other units), there is still the issue of tacs being weak. It's fine to say that you think people should still play the army and do what they can to win (which i agree with 100%), but we can still focus on the issue of tacs being weak. In a perfect world, every unit would be perfectly balanced, and worth using in some form in some type of list, and i think it's okay to push towards that as much as possible. Tactical squads are a core part of this game, people like them, and have spent time, energy, and money on them. Thus them being weak is a problem worth having a conversation about. And this goes for any other unit that is currently not seeing much play due to some kind of balance issue.

The more units that are worth playing, the more models people buy, and the better the game is. So i don't think there is ever a reason not to try and move these kinds of conversations forward.

Oh, buddy, I want Tacs to be buffed, believe me. I have an EXCESSIVE amount of Space Marine models that I'm thinking of just taking out of my carrying case just because I don't use Tac models for anything besides Devastators anymore. But the focus of "my army sucks waaah" usually revolves around Tacs being bad, but I don't think the army really is. Just... don't take Tacs right now. They likely will see a buff but if they don't, I guess I'm just going to put more effort into making my scouts look pretty.

jcd386 wrote:
Personally, when I look at the changes to things like 1) The wound chart (which typically makes it better to be T3 than T4 with how much being T4 costs), 2) The way saves are now modified by AP (which effects models with good saves more than it does ones with bad saves), 3) The removal of +1 attack on the change (which means marines do consistently less damage), and 4) The removal of being able to auto fall back in the morale phase, marines have taken a number of hits to their effectiveness. We can debate how right i am on these points, but if i am right about any them, then the answer seems to be either a points reduction or a increase in effectiveness for marines, or more likely both of these things, in order to have each unit feel like they are worth taking in some form in some style of list. And this same mindset should be used for all codexes, for the betterment of the game.

I think T4 is okaaaay, but it really doesn't seem to help until you get shot by S6 and S7 weapons. I'm glad Assault Cannons don't tear my marines to ribbons.
But you make a few good points. It seems like lots of global rule changes were made that totally changed the way Marines played without really giving them much to compensate, unless you're an Ultramarine. I will totally take going first over +1 Attack though, seeing how I run thunder hammer veterans. Initiative was a very painful mechanic.

I do believe that Space Marines need a buff, but the attitude I get from certain people in this thread is that Space Marines are just unplayable right now, and I just don't see that being the case. I'm winning and I'm having fun and I still haven't turned my list into a competitive mess yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
Personally the biggest letdown in the codex is its morbidly poor stratagems. Marines should be the kings of strats, they should reflect the centuries of drills, experience, tactical acumen and the physical superiority of humanity's greatest bully boys. Instead they are limp beyond compare, easily the worst of any codex. I mean, GKs got the actual worst codex in 8th, but their stratagems are still much better than Marines'. Screw them up, throw them away, and start again, would be my ideal.

Yeah. I counted it out and I think like 18 stratagems are either unit or weapon specific, and usually those units or options aren't even worth taking. I think I could count the stratagems I use every game on 1 hand.

Yeah that all makes sense. I think maybe everyone was coming across as too defeatist, so it seemed to me like you were moving too far in the other direction.

The toughness thing is interesting if you do the math. Going from T3 to T4 increases damage as follows:

S3: T4 takes 33% less damage than T3 (six hits goes from being 3 wounds to 2)
S4: T4 takes 25% less damage (from 4 to 3)
S5: doesn't change
S6/7: T4 takes 20% less damage (5 to 4)
S8+: doesn't change

To me this typically isn't worth the price we pay for it.

Saves are similarly strange, where the better your safe, the more AP values increases your damage. AP 1 increases damage to 2+ by 100%, 3+ by 50%, 4+ 33%, 5+ 25%, and 6+ by 20%.

To me these things make it clear that the marine profile is currently overcosted.