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Right now, I feel like our best chances (pure TS anyway), is going to be taking Raise the Banners, Psychic Ritual and Whilst We Stand, We Fight and then castle up on 3 objectives and hope we are durable enough.

Played a bunch of 9th ed games over the weekend. Using Cult of Duplicity and the Dark Matter crystal to get two Rubric squads onto objectives turn 1, surrounding them with Horrors and backing them with teleporting Scarab terminators on turn 2 and playing "Raise the Banners" was really strong.

As for Psychic Focus - I'm putting my money on that being a copy/paste error ... but time will tell I suppose ...

What do we think of Vortex Beasts now that objectives are so important? Too fragile or is an aura mortal wound dealer a good thing when you know the enemy has to crows around certain areas.

Kdash wrote:
First off, if you don’t take Magnus as your WL (due to wanting Cult relics and WL traits)

That just recently got fixed in the updated errata for Ritual of the Damned. If Magnus is your WL you can still take a Cult relic (and use Magister to give another character the Cult's WL trait).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

demontalons wrote:
What do we think of Vortex Beasts now that objectives are so important? Too fragile or is an aura mortal wound dealer a good thing when you know the enemy has to crows around certain areas.

I don't think it'll survive for 6 rounds, but I can see it putting in some real work in conjunction with the Cult of Magic's splash damage capabilities.

Brian888 wrote:

Kdash wrote:
First off, if you don’t take Magnus as your WL (due to wanting Cult relics and WL traits)

That just recently got fixed in the updated errata for Ritual of the Damned. If Magnus is your WL you can still take a Cult relic (and use Magister to give another character the Cult's WL trait).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

demontalons wrote:
What do we think of Vortex Beasts now that objectives are so important? Too fragile or is an aura mortal wound dealer a good thing when you know the enemy has to crows around certain areas.

I don't think it'll survive for 6 rounds, but I can see it putting in some real work in conjunction with the Cult of Magic's splash damage capabilities.

Games are only 5 rounds now, and terrain changes mean it will be super easy to hide it and pump out mortal wounds. So probably not a bad choice.

Games are only 5 rounds now, and terrain changes mean it will be super easy to hide it and pump out mortal wounds. So probably not a bad choice.

I know it's a points-sink, but I'm thinking about trying two of them to try and buff summoned Screamers. The Screamers really fast, and given that we're likely to see a ton of assault Intercessors, I think they're a good potential counter unit (wish they were cheaper). The Vortex Beast can make it so the Screamers bypass the Power Armor save completely. Bringing two should allow one of them to survive long enough to have an effect and at the very least it's a distraction Carnifex. Hopefully allows the Rubrics to last a little longer since, theoretically, they wouldn't have to survive as much shooting.

With cults and the extra CP is Ahriman the must have that he used to be? An exalted sorceror is 100 points and can know the same number of spell (if you include the cult spell) so you’re losing out on +1 to cast and 2 extra denies but gaining 50 points and the ability to take a relic and warlord trait.

I never went anywhere without Ahriman in 8th but I’m wondering if he’s not an auto include anymore?

Ahriman both can cast an extra spell and gets +1 on all casting rolls.
He's just too good.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ahriman both can cast an extra spell and gets +1 on all casting rolls*.
He's just too good.

*without taking a warlord slot.

Ahriman gets about five or six relics/warlord traits worth of stuff over a normal exalted. He has:
a one better invulnerable save
a one damage on average better melee weapon
knows one more spell
has one more cast
has two more denies
has plus one to cast
has plus one to deny

Actually knows the sane number of spells due to cults, but otherwise that's pretty spot on.

I agree, bad idea haha.

Has anyone tried the super caster?

Terminator Sorceror with familiar,and the +1 to cast warlord trait and the +1 to cast relic from magic? Is he worth it or are there better combinations out there? Is the +1 MW warlord trait from magic too good to pass up?

So what we saying about Magnus? Is he back on the menu? If your opponent is gunny, the guy can now go in reserves and emerge T2 to ensure he's rocking -1 to hit 3++ before your opponent can nuke him off the board. That was his achilles' heel...

 grouchoben wrote:
So what we saying about Magnus? Is he back on the menu? If your opponent is gunny, the guy can now go in reserves and emerge T2 to ensure he's rocking -1 to hit 3++ before your opponent can nuke him off the board. That was his achilles' heel...

Competitively, I still think he's a gamble. Yes you can ensure that he gets at least 1 round to try and do something by putting him into reserves, but that is also a significant CP cost and a good chunk of your army points off the table. The new terrain & cover rules do not help him at all. The meta is still going to be bringing Eliminator spam, triple Riptides, Eldar flyer spam, Custodes bike spam, Knights etc. Which can gun/melee down Magnus in 1 turn even under -1 hit and 3++. I think people will switch to putting his cost in points into stuff that can complete objectives efficiently.

Magnus is fine in the right list - the problem is that the best list for Mag just isn't TSons. We are early in ninth but I saw an RTT winning list with Magnus, Morty and a bunch of GD type of 'monster mash' jam. For what its worth I agree with you these type of big unit lists buy a bit into the coinflip mentality - I guess strategic reserves helps with that slightly as does the obscuring terrain.

Also, are we still seeing eldar flyer lists? They can't stack negative to hit modifiers (well they can but it caps -1), issues with secondaries and primaries etc.
Are we still seeing trip tide? Their cost went up - Tau meta still TBD but its not the same shoo-in... Tau plays i've seen are looking more at 6 commander or triple yavarra (assuming taunar gets nerfed ofc)
Knight lists are still meta? This is more of a gatekeeper army then meta I think.... although we haven't seen much since the latest PA books for knights.

Its still early in ninth so maybe but initial indications are what you should be expecting from comp play has shifted...

My personal view is that the true meta list to play around looks closest to Alex Harrison's list - this is similar to a list every SM player will be cooking as the comp is basically spoon fed (Gravis armor units):
https://www.40kstats.com/vanguardseries

I'm wondering with everyone jamming middle and all the gravis armor if the mutalith vortex beast has a sweet spot... The idea of just durable mortal wound spam came up when the model first came out - and with the new obscuring rules and rush to hold objectives in the center (not to mention the push for SM multi wound models [intercessors, eradicators etc.] - beast swings at -2 2) - if the beast couldn't work... The defiler is getting a lot of hype but points per wound and damage output the beast isn't so diffferent - it just lacks the range option.. 3 of these and ahriman can slide into most lists on the cheap - maybe throw in an extra HQ for the sweet TSons psychic with cult of magic... It costs 3 CP but reasonable mortal wound output as a result... Not sure its a slam dunk but I'd be inclined to give it a whirl, if only the beast models weren't so expensive... anyone have experience?

Had some games with Thousand Sons in 9th Edition now and tried a few things.

Last game was yesterday vs. Tau, 2000 points with the Scorched Earth mission from the GT book. (Dawn of war deloyment and 6 objectives)

My list was:

Time Cult battalion:

Ahriman on Disk
Daemon Prince (Hourglass relic)
Exalted Sorcerer (Warlord, +1 Psi Trait, DMC)
20 Rubrics
2 x 10 Cultists
5 Scarabs
1 Shaman & 3 x 3 Enlightened

Auxiliary Magic Cult Daemon prince (+1 Psi relic & MW trait)

Tzeentch Patrol Detachment

Changecaster + 30 Pink Horrors (Some reinforcement points left for some Blue Horrors)


Played against Tau with 2 Commanders, 1 Ethereal, 3 Riptides, 3 Crisis, 3 x 5 Firewarriors, 1 x 8 Marker Drones and 2 big squads Shield Drones.

He took the kill psyker and kill characters secondaries obviously, as well as the one where he needed to keep the 3 Riptides (most expensive models) alive till the end of the game.
My take were Engage on all fronts (get units in 3/4 table quarters, psychic ritual and raise the banners.

My plan was to use the "Risen Rubricae" strategem to get the 20 Rubrics on one objective and advance with the Horrors on the other one, while buffing them with my psykers and hold my two objectives with the Cultists and characters.
The Shaman was tasked with the psychic ritual and the 3 Enlightened squads with getting into the two enemys table quarters and help out where needed.
Scarab Occult was for counter attack on the Crisis or get me another unit to raise banners or get into a table quarter.

I have to admit, the matchup was really good for me, with little to no chance to prevent my 15 points from psychic ritual and good units to dominate the middle objectives and table quarters. Had only 3 CP at the start of the game, but with the extra CP this would work out. The "Anti-TS secondaries" are easy 30 points for the enemy as well tough.

I infiltrated the Rubrics on the right middle objective and got the first turn, advanced the Horrors on the left middle objective and my Cultists raised 2 banners on my homebase objectives.
2 Enlightened advanced, so i got 3 points for the quarter secondary. My psy was mostly buffs on the Rubrics and Horrors, with 1 Prince and Changecaster buffing the Horrors and the rest babysitting my Rubrics while chilling near the objectives.
The Shaman found his sweet spot between the Horrors to start some rituals. The magic cult DP abused some poor drones positioning and managed to get over 10 mortal wounds on multiple squads. The Rubrics went crazy with fussilade strat and shooting 80 2+ shots rerolling 1s, killed most of the drones and crippled 1 riptide badly.
The Horrors did also some great shooting with the buffs, with S4 and flickering flames they can wreck a lot of stuff.

Tau first turn poured a lot of fire in the Horrors and Rubrics, but with my buffs and Blue Horrors popping out i just lost 8 Rubrics and about the same in Horrors. 3++ with -1 to hit is nothing the Tau like i guess.

My second turn 1 raised two more flags, had the Enlightened still alive for the secondary and my Shaman proceeded his ritual unharmed.
Killed the remaining Firewarriors, all but two drones and damaged the second Riptide badly.

In return my Rubrics got shot down to the last man with just the Aspiring Sorcerer standing, minor Horrors losses and the Crisis tried to kill characters, but the Riptides SMS failed to kill enough cultists. Lucky me, screening almost gone now.

My third turn i finished the ritual, scored good with the other secondaries, killed 1 Riptide with a DP and almost a second one with the other, the Crisis and the last drones. Oh ond my Aspiring Sorcerer brought back his 2 Soulreaper Cannon buddies for some dakka - nice.
Now he had just the Ethereal, 2 damaged Commanders and 2 almost dead Riptides left.

His third turn his Zipcommander killed my warlord, his two Riptides tried to kill my hourglass Prince with an 3++, but he survived with 1 wound left.

Now it was just about finishing it, 4rd turn the Commander and the two Riptides died, with all 6 objectives under my control.
Except a second character kill he did nothing important, and turn 5 i tabled him with me winning by a final score of 100:46
This game just went perfect, and it was my first 100 points score in 9th edition. Ok there was some luck involved, but still, i am quite happy!


So my overall impression from this game and the ones before:

1. I love those squads of 3 Enlightened! Had 2-3 of them in every game and never regret it. They are fast, perfect for engage secondary, can do some damage on the run and are not that bad to finish something of in CC.

2. The shaman is great for psychic actions, especially if the enemy has nothing he can do about them. Not gonna lie, won`t take the ritual secondary against all armies. To bring 30 Horrors and a lot Rubrics helped a lot though, and even if he dies you can always finish the ritual with one of the other psykers. Not optimal, but heck, 15 points are worth it imo.

3. 20 Rubrics are fantastic - if you have the first turn or are sure you can protect them. Had games where i warptimed instead infiltrated them - this is great if the opponent allready closed in on an objective so 9" distance from units prevent you from using DMC or duplicity. Only downside is they are far to expensive to use them for actions. Played 3-4 squads of 5 as well, more flexibility but not really worth buffing, so less damage.

4. The new detachments are tricky to navigate. I love my Magic Daemonprince with devastating sorcery, but i want Duplicity or Time as well. Also i am really convinced about the Pink Horrors, they are fantastic on objectives but they need that patrol for the strategem and (psychic) buffs. Cheapest way to get all 3 is 6 CP, but that means 4 TS characters tops in 2 Patrol Detachment, or upgrading to an Battalion for another one.
Alternative would be summoning, if you use the first turn to summon 30 Horrors and an DP, but i am not fully convinced and against some enemies it might backfire.
Those 3 CP with infiltrating don`t leave much room for strats, but at least Gaze of Fate helps with Psi.
Only thing worth mentioning is if you go for a Battalion with 3 HQ the opponent can only get 24/30 secondary points for character kills and each surviving character takes 8 more points away.
Might try this, so far a had 2 or 3 detachments each game.
What are your experiences with this?

Has anyone tried the super caster?

Terminator Sorceror with familiar,and the +1 to cast warlord trait and the +1 to cast relic from magic? Is he worth it or are there better combinations out there? Is the +1 MW warlord trait from magic too good to pass up?

Well, most our powers are WC 5,6 or 7, with a few being harder (Doombolt, Death Hex) With an average roll of 7 i personally don`t care about stacking to much. But with Ahriman and 2 Princes and /or Sorcerers i get 7 powers a turn with +1, with the +2 strategem for key psychic powers and the Gaze of Fate reroll for the occasional peril or failed test with good reroll chances. (like a 1,4).
And yes, that MW WL trait is too good to pass up, at least for me. I love to give it to a prince, fly forward, do my thing and let Ahriman warptime him back to safety. (Or into CC that is.^^)

Hey up nefarious sorcerer types!

I've been having a fresh look through the cults, and it looks to me like Thousand Sons have a new strong pick: Cult of Scheming! It reads like it was written to win 9e missions:

Grand schemer turns any Cult unit (not model) within 3" of your warlord into obsec, or doubles the number of models it counts as if they're already obsec. That right there is a huuuuuuge deal in 9e. It opens up some of the strong options from the codex in a new way: Chaos Spawn, for example, come in at 115pts and with a full 5 bases of them, they are a top-grade threat in CC. Accompanied by a grandschemer, they're also now obsec. Big deal. Likewise Obsec scarabs is a beautiful thing. Finally, the warlord itself loves this, meaning a Prince can fly about and cap objectives in a pinch. Bascially whichever objective that Prince flies to, when it arrive your chances of grabbing it go up dramatically, even when alone.

Secondly, we have seeded strategy, a nice easy WC6 power that allows any scheming unit to withdraw and still shoot and charge, a power that makes ultramarines look lead-footed. It's a really solid utility power and it allows for some great movement and charge based shenanigans. The range is 30" too, so you can quarterback this onto pretty much any unit that needs it. Suddenly nothing in you army can be tagged in CC anymore. Only flaw is that RAW it doesn't allow that unit to cast if it falls back; we might see an FAQ on this sometime.

Finally, the relic any strat of your choice into 0cp. This isn't faction locked, so big strats like fight again on a Bloodthirster, or endless cacophany on some Oblits are nice picks for this.

What do you think? I'm pretty stoked and plan to try it out in my next Monster Mash/Sons list...

I think the if you build around it it can be very powerful. You just have to keep your warlord alive or else it falls apart.

I'm wondering with everyone jamming middle and all the gravis armor if the mutalith vortex beast has a sweet spot... The idea of just durable mortal wound spam came up when the model first came out - and with the new obscuring rules and rush to hold objectives in the center (not to mention the push for SM multi wound models [intercessors, eradicators etc.] - beast swings at -2 2) - if the beast couldn't work... The defiler is getting a lot of hype but points per wound and damage output the beast isn't so diffferent - it just lacks the range option.. 3 of these and ahriman can slide into most lists on the cheap - maybe throw in an extra HQ for the sweet TSons psychic with cult of magic... It costs 3 CP but reasonable mortal wound output as a result... Not sure its a slam dunk but I'd be inclined to give it a whirl, if only the beast models weren't so expensive... anyone have experience?

Spent the week painting up TWO Vortex beasts. Playing some garage hammer this weekend. Going to try the idea I suggested earlier of putting them in my opponent's face fast as possible and using them to buff Screamers. Will report back ...

So, no new FAQ's or TS errata. Mega-smiting 3 (or 4 with strat) times per turn with Magnus is a thing? 3d6 only should yield approx 11 mortal wounds. Rest of the casters just buff Magnus and use our other destro spells. Third smite would be cost 7, not impossible for Magnus as +2.

Or, did I still miss something?

That FAQ will be in the BRB FAQ document, which isn't out yet.

Has anyone used Noctilith Crowns with their Thousand Sons? There seems to be an obvious symbiosis between them and our Psyker heavy playstyle, and I was wondering at the benefits of having a couple of them in the third detachment slot when the second is a Knight detachment.

Rulebook and GT book FAQ`s are out, along with the Munitorum one and a power rating update for those interested.

Just 1 smite per psyker / phase as expected, but sadly no adressing of Smite WC increase with TS / GK... Nice one.

Biggest bummer for me is psychic ritual needs to be done by the same psyker 3 times. Stupid. At least in some matchups this was a easy to-go for me, now it got a lot more risky.

Heavy flamers going up to 12 inches could be an indicator flamers as a whole are going up, if true would be incredible for warpflamers rubrics.

Terminators also going to 3 wounds so eventually our scarab occult will as well. Looks like power swords are going to be +1S as well, another buff to scarab.

Hopefully because we have an older codex we are in line for a new one sooner than later.

The problem with the noctlith crown is we want our psykers to be close to the action and it can’t move.

demontalons wrote:
Heavy flamers going up to 12 inches could be an indicator flamers as a whole are going up, if true would be incredible for warpflamers rubrics.

Terminators also going to 3 wounds so eventually our scarab occult will as well. Looks like power swords are going to be +1S as well, another buff to scarab.

Hopefully because we have an older codex we are in line for a new one sooner than later.

I guess this will be just the heavy flamers. But i`ll enjoy it guessing wrong!
Still nice for the scarabs. Those 3 wounds would be epic as well, maybe then Oldmarines and Rubrics get 2 wounds finally. One can dream.

carldooley wrote:
Has anyone used Noctilith Crowns with their Thousand Sons? There seems to be an obvious symbiosis between them and our Psyker heavy playstyle, and I was wondering at the benefits of having a couple of them in the third detachment slot when the second is a Knight detachment.

demontalons wrote:
The problem with the noctlith crown is we want our psykers to be close to the action and it can’t move.

I kinda like it. Especially with the importance of the center objectives and our good range on psychic powers this might work.
With Rubrics, Scarabs and stuff holding the midfield they would get a nice buff.
With some cultists nearby they would finally get an invul as well.^^

 carldooley wrote:
Has anyone used Noctilith Crowns with their Thousand Sons? There seems to be an obvious symbiosis between them and our Psyker heavy playstyle, and I was wondering at the benefits of having a couple of them in the third detachment slot when the second is a Knight detachment.

It seems to work well for me. But I have a specific use for it. Cult of Time spell, plus Cult of change relic, plus the strat that lets you restore models on a 9+ cast means I'm usually bringing back 3 SOT per turn.

demontalons wrote:
Heavy flamers going up to 12 inches could be an indicator flamers as a whole are going up, if true would be incredible for warpflamers rubrics.

Terminators also going to 3 wounds so eventually our scarab occult will as well. Looks like power swords are going to be +1S as well, another buff to scarab.

Hopefully because we have an older codex we are in line for a new one sooner than later.

The problem with the noctlith crown is we want our psykers to be close to the action and it can’t move.

Where is this actually coming from though?

Had a couple of weeks off so i've not been keeping track of things.

Also, if this stuff is legit rumours, then i don't expect it to be rolled out in one go, but via the new codices, so, don't go planning a list around it all until we have the rules.

 Grotrebel wrote:

Just 1 smite per psyker / phase as expected, but sadly no adressing of Smite WC increase with TS / GK... Nice one.

Those are army specific rules, which means you refer to the codex. Not the BRB. When our codices come out the rule will be there.

Those are army specific rules, which means you refer to the codex. Not the BRB. When our codices come out the rule will be there.

You sure about that? Because it's not in the codex now. I was hoping this was just a simple copy/paste error at first, but after this latest FAQ, I'm not so sure. I still hold out hope, BUT, if GW was going to give that back to us, and knowing it's not in the Codex AND they removed it from the rules, one would think they'd have mentioned it in our army specific FAQ. On top of that, IF it was a copy/paste error, they've had plenty of time to realize it, and fix it, and still haven't. There have also been a lot of rumblings amongst some of the playtesters that hint at it not coming back. I fear we may be on the safer side at this point to assume it's not.

If it doesn't, what do we think our powers look like then? I feel like I'll still cast it a few times because we actually need it, but it's not something I'm likely to bother with after casting maybe twice. Since the other powers can only be cast once, I can see a lot of spell casters not doing any spell casting each turn. Guess it frees someone up for Ritual?

I have a feeling we are up for a pretty substantial codex restructuring. We need an army wide rule for being mono Tsons.

I expect them to flesh out the cults more fully, perhaps each cult will get a psychic tree as well or maybe a mini tree of 3 per cult. I personally think aspiring sorcerers need their own tree of powers aimed at buffing rubrics and minor de buffs.

If they include passive buffs then maybe the smite rule gets put in with cult of magic as an example.

Honestly though the smite rebuff hasn’t really affected my army that much. We have plenty of ways of getting pluses on our casters.

Forgot to mention - my group ran into time constraints over the weekend so we played a smaller sized game. Going to test out the double Vortex Beast list another time.