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Last weekend at my local GW the store ran an apocalypse game, the objective of which was to capture an objective in the oposing deployment zone, I got my team together and we made a plan and chose our forces around the plan that.

We would sit and defend the objectives in our deployment zone, and on the last turn I would use my officio assassinorium exicution force's strategic redployment to grab the undefended objectives in hte oposing deployment zone. on what we beleived to be the last turn I exicuted my redeployment, only to have the opposing team forfit as soon as I had placed my models on the objectives.

After the forfit we realized there would be enough time for at least one more turn afterwards and we offered to let them take the turn only to have them refuse and call us all cheaters and some other things that im suprised 13-15 yearolds know the meanings of. Some even went as far as tallying some of our players points costs to see if we were over the individual point limits (1500 a peice irrc) to see if they could claim victory that way.

Perfectly good, legal and clever. I like it, and would have no problem with someone using it on me.

Just bad losers.

God forbid tactical forethought should ever be applied to a tactical game.

Apocalypse is meant to be a laugh, yet both sides are expected to their utmost to win. You did this, they didn't. As long as they had fun even with the loss, everyone wins. They didn't. Their problem, not yours.

Frankly, if the rules allow it then roll with it. I know that there are a lot of things in the rules that are just nuts, but you don't go into chess assuming that bishops can only move 5 spaces do you?

I think your opponents were not really seeing what apoc is about. Which is to say, lunacy.

On your part? No dick moves there. They got outplayed, and then overreacted, as teenagers are wont to do.

They were pretty dumb to leave the objective just waiting there for you, and they most certainly would have been banging thier heads against the wall.
It's their fualt for not preparing for that possible eventuality.

On the other hand, just how old are you? If you're versing 13-15 yr olds then what did you expect from them? Should you really have been playing to win so hard?

On a related note, one of my friends in an Apoc match used the sewer tunnels strategy. He told us that he was using it, and we could see where they were (or so we thought). In the last turn, he shows us that one of the markers is in fact inside and intact building (which we agreed models could go into) and was conveniantly placed right next to the objective. He proceeded to rush out with his vets and claim it...winning the game. Tell me, was he being TFG becuase we had NO idea that there was a marker UNDER the freaking building.

Yes, it was a TFG and a Dick move for them to forfeit the game because they thought they couldn't win. Doubly so for an Apoc game, it's generally for funsies and a great narative story.

Im 21, it was 5v5 i had 4 other 13-16 yr olds on my team nad there was at least 1 20+ on the other team. I'm jsut the only person htere with any fraction of leadership and tactical forethought, like first turn I had a heriophaunt rampaging through my line, charged it with my GK GM and managed to wound and kill it with his force weapon on the first turn to big fits of force weapons can only deal d3 wounds to it.

Emporers Faithful wrote:On a related note, one of my friends in an Apoc match used the sewer tunnels strategy. He told us that he was using it, and we could see where they were (or so we thought). In the last turn, he shows us that one of the markers is in fact inside and intact building (which we agreed models could go into) and was conveniantly placed right next to the objective. He proceeded to rush out with his vets and claim it...winning the game. Tell me, was he being TFG becuase we had NO idea that there was a marker UNDER the freaking building.

If he didnt point out the marker under the building at the start, and it wasnt clearly visible I'd call it a TFG move but if you didn't ask or watch him place his markers or forgot the one that was out of sight, then its probly your own fault.

Without knowing more I'm going to weigh in on their side and say yes you were out of order.

But some questions,

What were the sides?
How many turns had been played to that point?
Even if you had played that extra turn what chance did they have of winning/drawing the game.

Basically if they had spent several turns running across a board into a gunline, getting mown down with little in the way of return kills, having you take objectives that they then have no chance of recapturing and offering to play a futher turn so that you can rub their noses in it even further is well out of order.

But then I and the others on this thread dont have all the info, there are two sides to every story.

Cheers

Andrew

How is he out of order? He played a legal move in a legal game. Whats next? Your a TFG because you roll well and kill a squad in shooting?

I think you did just fine man. Dont feel bad because you out smarted the other team. It happens lol

We took some pretty bad casualties ourselves i lost 2 land raiders on the first turn personaly. I only had 2 objectives captured at the end of the game with 2 vindicre assassins on each and 3 turns had gone past. they had a 10 man suqad of meka nobs and ghazkul 6" away from one objective and a full squad of guants the same distance from another only held by 2 vindicre assassins with 1 wound each, the 2 objectives i had captured were within range of about 3 units a peice and there was a stompa not too far away from both with its supa gatla unused. they had a very good chance of killing my scoring units and capturing one of our objectives themselves and winning the game.

was wrong about the team ballance 3v4

my side (imperials)
- me marines 2 raiders 6 vindicre assassins, valkrie, 3 squads sternguard, grey knight grand master.
- marines, stormlord 2 tac squads, terminus ultra, 2 preads
- marines, land raider, baneblade 10 termies calgar (deepstrike mishap killed all)

other team (xenos)
-tau hammerhead, firewoarriors, kroot
-tyranids heriophaunt, 32 gauts, 3 warriors (probly the only person within the points limit)
- chaos/orks, termies land raider, stompa. ghazkull
- orks 10 mekanobz, whatever with KFF, trukk, 30 boyz x2.

In which case, yes they were out of order. There was a fighting chance to turn the game around, and rather than fight it out they threw thier toys out the pram.

I'm sure you'll agree there are some games worth forgetting about and some worth continuing, this seems like the latter rather than the former. Kudos to you for thinking about/executing the tactic.

King, as I wrote in my earlier post, there wasn't enough detail to make a decision on, and I gave my reasons for it there.

Legal does not always mean right.

Cheers

Andrew

First of all... per Codex Deamonhunters and Witch Hunters, Assassins cannot hold objectives or table quarters so your Assassins couldn't hold any undefended objectives. I would hesitate to use the "C" word but at the very least the rules weren't played correctly it sounds like. The most you could hope for was they contest and even then were I the event organizer I would have a hard time with it and would probably make you dice off to see if they could do that.

The teens quitting on you was poor sportsmanship but I can see where they felt like they were somehow hoodwinked.

I don't think it can ever be unsportsmanlike to outthink your opponent with better tactics.

There is a different issue of whether a player with a lot of experience should ever be playing a bunch of newbs in a serious game.

First of all... per Codex Deamonhunters and Witch Hunters, Assassins cannot hold objectives or table quarters so your Assassins couldn't hold any undefended objectives. I would hesitate to use the "C" word but at the very least the rules weren't played correctly it sounds like. The most you could hope for was they contest and even then were I the event organizer I would have a hard time with it and would probably make you dice off to see if they could do that.

Apoc sometimes has funny rules about what can capture what. The few games I played of it, anything that wasn't a vehicle could capture and hold objectives. Like most things, it is something that should have been discussed and agreed upon prior to. Having all this been said, you're playing children. Did you expect them to react in any other way?

Call me crazy, but the whole "might be legal, still not right" is an excuse. When I play, I either win, or lose. I dont use that excuse on either. Now ill take it easy on a new player, Ill help out and even dumb down my list so they have a better chance to win (and gain a morale booster)
But with one 20 somthing on one side, and another on the other. It seems to me that they were the "leaders" of the groups. So not enough info or not, they were out foxed.
BUT I also agree that knowing you used assassins to hold objectives is wrong. You should of known that. But you can see in what the other team took, that nothign was really planned out. It looks like a big mess of take this take that, instead of thinking it out like the marines did.

King, you're missing my point. From the original post, Iron had already won the game when he made his final move.

It read to me as if he was kicking his opponent when they were down. (sensible tactic, but Marquis of Queensbury and all that...) That was why I said it was out of order.

Andrew

ManwithIronHands wrote:Last weekend at my local GW the store ran an apocalypse game, the objective of which was to capture an objective in the oposing deployment zone, I got my team together and we made a plan and chose our forces around the plan that.

We would sit and defend the objectives in our deployment zone, and on the last turn I would use my officio assassinorium exicution force's strategic redployment to grab the undefended objectives in hte oposing deployment zone. on what we beleived to be the last turn I exicuted my redeployment, only to have the opposing team forfit as soon as I had placed my models on the objectives.

After the forfit we realized there would be enough time for at least one more turn afterwards and we offered to let them take the turn only to have them refuse and call us all cheaters and some other things that im suprised 13-15 yearolds know the meanings of. Some even went as far as tallying some of our players points costs to see if we were over the individual point limits (1500 a peice irrc) to see if they could claim victory that way.

Frankly, I'm surprised it even worked.

If they had kept even minimal troops around an objective, you couldn't get to it with the redeploy.

AndrewC wrote:King, you're missing my point. From the original post, Iron had already won the game when he made his final move.

It read to me as if he was kicking his opponent when they were down. (sensible tactic, but Marquis of Queensbury and all that...) That was why I said it was out of order.

Andrew

So in other words, you're saying they absolutely weren't out of order.

Perhaps you should read the OP more carefully.

.....and as for the tunnel maneuver,

Don't models using tunnels come out of them in their deployment from Strategic Reserve? In that case they must do it on turn 2, or turn 3. There is no waiting for turn 6 and jumping out onto an objective.

And, their opponents were either ignorant of the rules, or not paying attention. Having 1 model within 1" from the tunnel blocks it off. Who the hell is playing Apoc and leaving nothing on the objectives? Holding objectives is how you win the game.

ManwithIronHands wrote:We took some pretty bad casualties ourselves i lost 2 land raiders on the first turn personaly. I only had 2 objectives captured at the end of the game with 2 vindicre assassins on each and 3 turns had gone past. they had a 10 man suqad of meka nobs and ghazkul 6" away from one objective and a full squad of guants the same distance from another only held by 2 vindicre assassins with 1 wound each, the 2 objectives i had captured were within range of about 3 units a peice and there was a stompa not too far away from both with its supa gatla unused. they had a very good chance of killing my scoring units and capturing one of our objectives themselves and winning the game.

was wrong about the team ballance 3v4

my side (imperials)
- me marines 2 raiders 6 vindicre assassins, valkrie, 3 squads sternguard, grey knight grand master.
- marines, stormlord 2 tac squads, terminus ultra, 2 preads
- marines, land raider, baneblade 10 termies calgar (deepstrike mishap killed all)

other team (xenos)
-tau hammerhead, firewoarriors, kroot
-tyranids heriophaunt, 32 gauts, 3 warriors (probly the only person within the points limit)
- chaos/orks, termies land raider, stompa. ghazkull
- orks 10 mekanobz, whatever with KFF, trukk, 30 boyz x2.

Um...they were running a Heirophant against no superheavies on your side, and they thought anything you did was unsporting?

mikhaila wrote:

ManwithIronHands wrote:Last weekend at my local GW the store ran an apocalypse game, the objective of which was to capture an objective in the oposing deployment zone, I got my team together and we made a plan and chose our forces around the plan that.

We would sit and defend the objectives in our deployment zone, and on the last turn I would use my officio assassinorium exicution force's strategic redployment to grab the undefended objectives in hte oposing deployment zone. on what we beleived to be the last turn I exicuted my redeployment, only to have the opposing team forfit as soon as I had placed my models on the objectives.

After the forfit we realized there would be enough time for at least one more turn afterwards and we offered to let them take the turn only to have them refuse and call us all cheaters and some other things that im suprised 13-15 yearolds know the meanings of. Some even went as far as tallying some of our players points costs to see if we were over the individual point limits (1500 a peice irrc) to see if they could claim victory that way.

Frankly, I'm surprised it even worked.

If they had kept even minimal troops around an objective, you couldn't get to it with the redeploy.

QFT. I think it was a longshot that paid off in the end and you shouldn't feel the least bit bad about using it. It's like using the 4 move checkmate. If you've played more than one game, you should realize that it's coming and take deal with it.

It's Apoc, no one should ever expect to win because there's all those stratagems and formations that can sneak up on you. Your friends were just being babies.

I would say they were the TFG in this situation, not you.

Just do what we do at my store. Take your index finger and place it next to your eye, on the outside(by your cheek), now trace a line down your cheek like a lone tear is rolling down and make a sad face doing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saldiven wrote:

ManwithIronHands wrote:
my side (imperials)
- me marines 2 raiders 6 vindicre assassins, valkrie, 3 squads sternguard, grey knight grand master.
- marines, stormlord 2 tac squads, terminus ultra, 2 preads
- marines, land raider, baneblade 10 termies calgar (deepstrike mishap killed all)

other team (xenos)
-tau hammerhead, firewoarriors, kroot
-tyranids heriophaunt, 32 gauts, 3 warriors (probly the only person within the points limit)
- chaos/orks, termies land raider, stompa. ghazkull
- orks 10 mekanobz, whatever with KFF, trukk, 30 boyz x2.

Um...they were running a Heirophant against no superheavies on your side, and they thought anything you did was unsporting?

2 supers

About the assassins being able to hold objectives I was wrong about but the game organiser stated that only infantry and calvary can capture objectives which assasins are. due to this they had a special dispensation to be able to hold those objectives.

Its not like we won because the assassisns were holding the objectives at the end of hte game, we won due to the other side forfiting.

As for stratagems screwing with the game. Only stratagems that come with the datasheet are allowed to be used, as well as any others handed out for team disadvantages. so I was the onyl one on the table with stratagems.

daedalus wrote:Having all this been said, you're playing children. Did you expect them to react in any other way?

Well, I'm 14 and as I said in my previous post, I wouldn't mind. What the OP was doing was perfectly valid and legal, and a clever way of using that strategem. Sweeping generalisations are all well and good until you realise we're not all like that.

daedalus wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

Frankly, I'm surprised it even worked.

If they had kept even minimal troops around an objective, you couldn't get to it with the redeploy.

QFT. I think it was a longshot that paid off in the end and you shouldn't feel the least bit bad about using it. It's like using the 4 move checkmate. If you've played more than one game, you should realize that it's coming and take deal with it.

If you pulled it off, then they're just being sore for leaving huge gaping holes in their line like that(since no part of your Strategic Redeployment may come within 12" of an enemy at any point during the move, you had to have a 24"+ corridor to that objective to pull this off). You outplayed them, they couldn't handle it.

As legitimate as it may be, its still a dick move although how your opponents reacted is more dick-ish. However were you acting in any way where you come off across as a d-bag, smug, or any other negative quality other than your strategy? That bit about allowing to continue the game for another turn could've been also taken as an insult depending on how you addressed it; for some people that act alone after your tactic would seem insulting. Large games generally take a while to play so that might also have something to do with it and the fact that they're young.

But yea that tactic was a dick move to pull at the end of the game even though its legitimate and strategically smart --- like camping in a respawn room on a first person shooter...sure the game rules let you do it but you're going to get your ass banned if you keep using such tactics.

fire4effekt wrote:2 supers

Whoops, sorry.

I guess my twitch was acting up when I was attempting to read that post...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cane wrote:As legitimate as it may be, its still a dick move although how your opponents reacted is more dick-ish. However were you acting in any way where you come off across as a d-bag, smug, or any other negative quality other than your strategy? That bit about allowing to continue the game for another turn could've been also taken as an insult depending on how you addressed it; for some people that act alone after your tactic would seem insulting. Large games generally take a while to play so that might also have something to do with it and the fact that they're young.

But yea that tactic was a dick move to pull at the end of the game even though its legitimate and strategically smart --- like camping in a respawn room on a first person shooter...sure the game rules let you do it but you're going to get your ass banned if you keep using such tactics.

So using a perfectly legal tactic that your opponent was unable to see coming (and really should have), despite having seen the presence of the assassins in the army lists, is suddenly a "dick" move?

So, I guess we should all play down our playing ability to the intelligence (or lack thereof) of our opponents so as not to be a "dick?"