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So give me a bullet list of cheesy space wolf units as I don't have the codex and surely won't be buying it as I detest the imperium. Tell me (in your opinion) what the most broken parts are... Not in conjunction with other units, but the type of entries that read like: "Roll a D6, any model you point at is dead on a 3+". I want to have a general idea of what's coming.

For cheesy units, flip the codex open to any page.
????
profit!!

There is no cheese in the wolf codex. At the end of every build, it probably is no stronger than the best SM lists.

There is not one unit in the whole codex that breaks the game. People might complain about Rune Priest a little, but seriously. Against any number of different armies, he is no tougher than a standard Librarian.

It seems to me that everything is just a hair better, like GH being one less point, knowing fear, having counter attack and accute sences. I think that this just adds up after a while, eventually making the list as a whole more efficient.

Grey Hunters "know fear"? They don't auto-regroup??

Long Fangs are a billion times better than devies.
Not broken, just awesome.

The codex is not really cheesy.
If you look closely, then even the RP with jaws is not overpowered.
The same holds for Long Fangs. If the enemy targets them,
you will recognize that they have no ablative wounds.
Moreover, they are always exposed to outflankers.

I've noticed a lot of local players starting space wolves armies since the codex release. Just for laughs I refer to them as 'cheese wolves' and most of these players smile 'knowingly' a few get very defensive. I think that until they have been out for a few more months it is impossible to say whether or not they are cheesy, I'm sure there are some killer builds but nearly every codex have those and an appropriate counter.

Well, the good news for non-SW players is that you can even use their rules
if you play a custom chapter.

Grey hunters may be 1pt cheaper per model but the entire unit is actually 10% cheaper than SM.. thats very significant

I see no reason to ever use SM because of wolves

Codex creep at it's finest.

Make each codex stronger than the last, and you get a rush of sales because people want to be on top.

Kirasu wrote:Grey hunters may be 1pt cheaper per model but the entire unit is actually 10% cheaper than SM.. thats very significant

I see no reason to ever use SM because of wolves

If you want a pure shooting style of army. SM blows the pants off the wolves, thanks to combat squads, sternguard, and heavy weapons in tacticals. Not to mention SM special characters that modify an army entirely. There is still much power to be had in the SM codex.

I think Jaws of the World Wolf is a pretty cheesy power. It will either kill off some high value model, and then the victim will think it's cheesy, or it'll do nothing and the user will think it's cheesy. It's just a cheeseball situation.

That aside, maybe the next cheesiest part is the Thunderwolf. You can put them on an HQ to give him S5, T5. Not T5(4). T5. They're not totally overpowered on the HQ or as a unit, but they're solid.

Wolf Guards are also WAY cheaper for what they can do as squad leaders than normal SM sarges are.

This is actually the pattern of the book... Nothing CHEESY, just lots of things at a 10-20% discount over normal SMs, and then some options lost.

There ARE downsides to SWs. Their Drop Pods are only 10 man. They can't take Heavy Weapons outside of Long Fang squads. They don't fit all that well into Rhinos.

But, to understand SWs, look at the Grey Hunter. He's their version of a Tactical Marine. He costs a point less, but gets Counter-Attack, Acute Senses, and Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW (Chaos style). So he's a much meaner model overall, for one point less.

Not broken, not cheesy, just 10-20% better.

It's deliberate Codex Creep.

Logan. Not cheese, never cheese. I hate the term cheese..

But he is awesome.

Phryxis wrote: But, to understand SWs, look at the Grey Hunter. He's their version of a Tactical Marine. He costs a point less, but gets Counter-Attack, Acute Senses, and Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW (Chaos style). So he's a much meaner model overall, for one point less.

Not broken, not cheesy, just 10-20% better.

It's deliberate Codex Creep.

Your ignoring the Lack of a heavy weapon and combat squading. A tatical squad can take 10 men and a cheap heavy weapon say plasma Cannon. The unit can then split up leaving the Plasma Cannon shooting from the home lines while the rest of the squad make the squad make there way to fight in close.

Also the SM Sargent has 2 Attacks, so with ether a fist or power weapon he has one more attack then the wolves.

In genral the space wolves will beat 7 bells out of space marines in close combat. At range the Smurfs will beat the wolves.

Cheese is just the battle cry of the inept

Mech Marines, speeder spam, Terminator spam, and any sort of Land Raider or Dreadnought build is better-done by basic Space Marines. Shrike and Vulkan remain incredibly powerful force multipliers and the ability to have mobile scoring multimelta bunkers also isn't to be ignored.

Wolves have many units capable of beating the stuffing out of a Tac squad in close combat, but what codex doesn't? 20 Guardsmen with commissars and sergeants with power weapons can kill Tac squads, too. Wolves do not have good options for meching up en masse; tradeoffs between special weapons and low leadership or an elite squad leader, far more expensive assault Terminators, and prohibitively expensive special characters (therefore turning any sort of character+squad+land Raider build into a 750 point brick unit).

The strengths of the codex are effective and inexpensive basic troops; fast, mobile assault units; excellent anti-psyker defenses; and inexpensive, flexible heavy weapons.

In general the builds that Marines do well, SW don't, and vice versa.

I play both vanilla marines and Space Wolves, and I'm honestly disappointed with the new SW codex.

GH are undeniably good, but I don't think they're significantly better than Tacticals. To my eye, the major advantage they get is they aren't forced into the sergeant upgrade as Tacticals are, and if Tacs had a cheaper option to take a Sergeant instead of a Veteran Sergeant, I'd put Tacticals as the superior troop choice. As it is, they're very similar.

Rune Priests are better on the whole to Librarians. Not as drastically as most people think, as Librarians do get some really good powers, they're just more subtle than, say, Jaws of the World Wolf. Long Fangs are significantly better than Devastators, but that isn't terribly surprising as Devastators pretty much blow anyway.

Maybe, though, I'll get some Cold Ones, and convert them to riding Salamanders, and play my Salamanders as "counts as" Space Wolves, though

Point for point, grey hunters are the best troop choice i've seen. Counter attack is huge. It's the TWC that bother me, especially with a wolf lord and with storm shields, very fast and tough to take down. I don't feel comfortable fielding a great unclean one any more which is sad because i loved my paint job. I really have no idea what tyranids will do against jotww...

It's not even remotely overpowered. Its just a solid well written codex that does a good job of making the Wolves different enough but still similar to marines.

I think its awesome.


Also,


10 Terms w/ Assault Weapons 5 LC / 5 TH and SS 400


10 WolfGuard w/ 5 WC / 5 TH and SS 580


No Attack Bikes w/ BS 4 or Attck bike Squadron



Wolves Elites

Wolfguard
Scouts
Dreads



The wolf codex is just a really well balanced well written book period.

jsullivanlaw wrote:Point for point, grey hunters are the best troop choice i've seen. Counter attack is huge. It's the TWC that bother me, especially with a wolf lord and with storm shields, very fast and tough to take down. I don't feel comfortable fielding a great unclean one any more which is sad because i loved my paint job. I really have no idea what tyranids will do against jotww...

SWolfs are just a new thing. Like Nob Bikers, Lash, etc. they are just a new type of army people need to learn how to deal with.

Grey Hunters are not the best troops point per point. They can't take HW, and can't get a sarg. They have major drawbacks! They are NICE troops, but not even close to the best.

The best I would have to say are Sisters of Battle. 11 points for a BS4 model with a bolter and a 3+ save? + All the goodies? Yes. YES.

TWC are quite powerful, but if they become (4)5 with a FAQ then they become significantly weaker. They will die just like all the other "big baddies".

GUO is still a monster against TWC. He is your best bet to take them down.

JotWW really isn't all that effective. Really. There are a couple other posts round here that say how underwhelming it is. It is OKAY but truthfully not going to be a game winner 9 times out of 10.

A cheesy build? Spam TWC and grab Njal. That's the cheasiest SW can get IMHO.

But as others say, Cheese is the cry of the unprepared.

Greyhunters are one of the Best but not the best.

SOB have PP still the best troop.

Your ignoring the Lack of a heavy weapon and combat squading.

Actually, I think I addressed that... As I said, the SWs do have downsides. But what they're good at, they're good at, and they do it for less than SMs.

It strikes me as very bizzare to be saying this, given how it hollow it sounded to me when Jervis said it about Dark Angels, but Combat Squadding is indeed very useful, and SWs do suffer for not having it.

But it's not as good as Counter-Attack PLUS having a BP+CCW on every Grey Hunter, for one point less. Not even close. And then throw in Acute Senses just for fun.

Also the SM Sargent has 2 Attacks, so with ether a fist or power weapon he has one more attack then the wolves

Yes, but you take a Wolf Guard, and he's much better than a SM Sarge, for fewer points.

The point values are somewhat obfuscated in C:SM, but you can take a guess at what they are. 90 points for 4 Marines and a Sarge. If the normal Marines are 16 points, then the Sarge is about 26. The Wolf Guard is 18. The SM Sarge pays 25 points for a Fist, and 10 points for a Combi-Weapon The Wolf Guard pays 20 and 5.

So, it can be reasonably said, that you get the Wolf Guard for 43 points, and the SM Sarge for 61. And from there, the Wolf Guard is better, having Counter-Attack and Acute Senses.

So now you've got 2 Fists in the unit, one on a guy who's only slightly worse than an SM Sarge (since he has Counter Attack), and one on a guy who's considerably better than an SM Sarge, plus cheaper.

In genral the space wolves will beat 7 bells out of space marines in close combat. At range the Smurfs will beat the wolves.

I agree. But I think the SWs are more better at CC than the SMs are at shooting. Or, put differently, I think the SW Codex makes for more powerful builds overall, as you get more for less.

Plus, don't forget, while you don't get ablaitive wounds in Long Fang squads, you get a lot more shooty for a lot fewer points. Is it really so bad to use a 20 point model with an HBolter as a wound instead of a 16 point model with a Bolter he's not going to use? And also being able to split fire while you do it?

Fact is, SWs can still shoot fairly well. There are a lot of places where 2x Plasma Guns or 2x Meltaguns are much better (and, obviously, cheaper) than a Las/Plas or Melta/Multi-Melta.

My Imperial Fists are Drop Podding in Mult-Meltas and Lascannons. Honestly, I'd probably take a Meltagun and Plasma-Gun instead if I could.

20 Guardsmen with commissars and sergeants with power weapons can kill Tac squads, too.

To me that's more an argument in favor of GHs. In general, trying to shoot down a Tac Squad is somewhat unproductive. They're much easier to kill in CC than they are to shoot down, and they're also much less powerful in CC than they are shooting.

In contrast, when you try to deal with GHs, they're the same amount of crappy to shoot at, plus if you try to assault them, they'll eat you up. They get THREE TIMES as many attacks when assaulted as Tac Marines do. Think about that. You assault them with Assault Marines, and you don't even come out ahead, much less crush them.

It's not even remotely overpowered. Its just a solid well written codex that does a good job of making the Wolves different enough but still similar to marines.

I agree. I think it's a great Codex, but like all of them it has some problems. I also think it's a reasonable amount of creep. I support creep, really, it's keeping things fresh, keeping people interested, selling models. Done carefully and gradually, it's a good idea. Phil Kelly is their best designer by far.

Phryxis its apple and oranges both are fruit but nether taste the same.

SM tactical marines work on their own ... They can take a heavy weapon and can combat squad ... TCombat squading opens a plethora of new tactics.

SW Grey hunters are close combat they have no range over 24" ... They have no sergent, but can take a wolf guard (i'll come back to him), however they may still take a power weapon or power fist but with only 1 base attack it some what sub par. Mark of Wulfen and Wulf Standard both boost the units effectiveness in close combat.

Now going back to the wolf guard. This guy is amazingly cheap at first glance. What most people forget is an Elites slot must be sacrificed to take him. Each slot you may take 3-10 WG. Now think about this that nice cheap effective unit is great value but every time you take a way a model for a leader it becomes smaller and less effective. When it hits 1-3 it might even be worth thinking about dropping the last people from the unit so there isn't an easy killpoint.


So in effect you've only got 2 elites slots in a space wolves army.

kuro_khan wrote:Codex creep at it's finest.

Make each codex stronger than the last, and you get a rush of sales because people want to be on top.

Codex creep is fake. New Codices are better only because they're more compatible with the overall design paradigm of new editions.

Tri wrote:Now going back to the wolf guard. This guy is amazingly cheap at first glance. What most people forget is an Elites slot must be sacrificed to take him. Each slot you may take 3-10 WG. Now think about this that nice cheap effective unit is great value but every time you take a way a model for a leader it becomes smaller and less effective. When it hits 1-3 it might even be worth thinking about dropping the last people from the unit so there isn't an easy killpoint.


So in effect you've only got 2 elites slots in a space wolves army.

Good point, but that's just something you'll have to be aware of when making your Wolf Guard squad. I would've maxed the squad out to the full 10, but I doubt that Ill be spreading out enough WG throughout my army to bring that squad number to lower than 5, which is a decent size of Terminator WG bodyguards for your Lord. If having only 1-3 left is your problem, then just dont take them, and only enough WG to act as squad leaders for your GHs and what have you.

Sacrificing one elite slot is worth it imo if you're still going to have a 5 WG Termie retinue, along with cheaper-than-SM-sarge squad leaders.

Fetterkey wrote:

kuro_khan wrote:Codex creep at it's finest.

Make each codex stronger than the last, and you get a rush of sales because people want to be on top.

Codex creep is fake. New Codices are better only because they're more compatible with the overall design paradigm of new editions.

I dont think Codex Creep is fake, but I do agree with the last part.

Lord-Loss wrote:I dont think Codex Creep is fake, but I do agree with the last part.

You ever play (or seriously play against) the previous Chaos codex? They had this unit that could move and assault after Deep Strike, was S5 A2 T4 with 3+/5+ saves, oh, and they all counted as having power weapons. For 23 points each. The SM/IG/SW codices point to a leveling off of power after the replacement of the old Chaos codex and 5e nerfing the old Eldar codex -- nothing since the release of 5e has really brought the overall power level up, and 5e (combined with the 4.5e Chaos 'dex) heralded a sharp decrease in the power of the top lists.

There's plenty of codex creep claims, sure, but the last three books put out have all been at about the same power level. Said power level is, generally speaking, at or near the top, yes, but really -- proper game design would tend to indicate that every codex coming out should be neck-and-neck with the top of the heap. The past year this seems the case, to me, at least.

That we're seeing arguments with the median position being somewhere around "eh, it's as good as what's out there" is a good thing for the balance of the game.

I think a lot of the reaction to SW is that many SM players try to play their SM in pretty much the way the SW list is built to play marines, as opposed to playing SM fully to their advantages. As a result, those players will pretty frequently see SW as drastically better, as they do what they've been trying to do better than SM do. A lot of the SM players looking at it and saying "meh" are those who exploit Combat Squads and Combat Tactics to their fullest, and have lists and overall strategies that benefit more from the SM rules than the SW rules.

As I've said, I play both, and as far as troop choices go, the only advantage of GH over Tactical Squads that I'm actually envious of as a SM player is GH aren't forced to pay for the Veteran Sergeant upgrade. That's it, that's the difference in power between the two squads.

It's important to look at Codex SW in context of what the Marine codex is capable of, with the addition of special characters.

We've got...

Khan lists. 160 points for a Captain who gives every unit with Chapter Tactics Outflank. His unit gets Hit & Run AND Furious Charge. You can outflank a Land Raider full of Assault Terminators. UGLY!!! Someone who plays at a local venue described his Khan army as outflanking Raiders, and big-template artillery to keep the enemy from staying away from the flanks. He said Thunderfire cannons, I think Vindicators would be better. Anyway, like I said, Wolves can put a lot of damage on the table. A Khan list can put a lot of damage exactly where you want it.

Vulkan lists. For 190 points, you get a kitted out Captain who is a close range monster. He's not impossible to kill, but he twin links the heaviest hitting stuff in your army: melta weapons and flame weapons. Oh yeah, AND all of your Thunder Hammers. That's ugly for ya. And Vulkan lists are a real b***h for tournaments too because these days, most armies end up either mech or horde. Land speeders with the HF/MM combo give you both, and twin link them.

Shrike lists. 195 points, everybody gets fleet and he can infiltrate his own unit. 10 Assault Terminators with TH/SS fleeting across the board, in combat possibly as early as first turn? Hah! That's what we want. And if you really want to, you can break him off at the beginning of the movement phase to go after separate targets.



If we're comparing SW to basic vanilla Marine armies without special characters, then sure, they can go a little faster, a little cheaper. But if we're comparing SW to Marine lists purpose-built around specific special characters, I don't really think that the minor advantages here and there of SW really outweigh some of the game-changing dynamic effects of some of these special characters.

Must be drop pods as I see a lot of photos of pod wolf armies in battle reports and at tournaments....it's probably because that's the only way you can get Wolf Guard terminators to deep strike. (but codex chapters can't pod down their terminators, only others that can do it are Blood Angels)