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Freelance Soldier






The biggest problem that us older wolf players seem to have is gearing up with some of the newer models. I just don't own any drop pods. I could come to games and just proxy them out, but that just seems wrong.

Likewise, the Thunderwolf Cavalry looks awesome, but it's going to be a few weeks before I get them modeled up. Again, I could proxy, but that's just sloppy.

If you want some cheese with the new codex, you might try dropping a Blood Claw squad with Lukas the Trickster. Put them next to a juicy target, let the target decide to run, and then have the Last Laugh pursue them around or off the board.

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Hamburg

Lukas is a bit pricey for my liking.


The biggest problem that us older wolf players seem to have is gearing up with some of the newer models. I just don't own any drop pods. I could come to games and just proxy them out, but that just seems wrong.

Likewise, the Thunderwolf Cavalry looks awesome, but it's going to be a few weeks before I get them modeled up. Again, I could proxy, but that's just sloppy.

Getting some new models is nice. But hey, GW needs to make money.

Former moderator 40kOnline

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It's a good solid codex but the Codex: Space Marine for pure options and tctical flexibility still stays way ahead f it. As have been stated Shrike, Khan etc.. all models that allow special abilities to be conferred to the whole army.



Also, Wolves miss out on some units that are definitely some of the best units in the game such as the Ironclad, Landspeeder variant. The ability to have scoring scouts for cheap.


Bloodclaws are mediocre to a degree ; regardless of what has been said the unit has some serious drawbacks especially head strong.


In a enviroment where mechanized transports work well not being able to fire weapons at a vehicle cannot be dismissed.


For this reason alone bloodclaws can pretty much not fire meltaguns at vehicles. with the exception of the multimelta in the bike squad.


Unless you add in another charcter which increases its overall cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thunderwolves are a good unit but lets look at their disadvantages


Expensive 50+ if you decide to put some thunderhammers in the unit or stormshields.

rending recieved a serious nurf. Sure great they have rending. At max a 5 man unit is going to deal 30 attacks on the charge they still only have weaponskill 4 so 4+ to hit then 3 + to wound.


Just overall the unit is excellent but it has some serious disadvantages and the number one is.



They are not fearless

They have a leadership of 8 no way to reroll.

There is also as far as I can see other than adding a Wolf Priest on a SPace Marine bike to the unit which has its obvious disadvantages. no way to give them fearless or a reroll excepting special circumstances.


LD 8; they have ATSNKF but that doesnt work against pinning.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/24 17:08:34


If I lose it is because I had bad luck, if you win it is because you cheated. 
   
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Hamburg

I agree what Holisman said.
Blood Claws are best mounted into a Land Raider Crusader and thrown head-long into the thickest melee.
SW Cavalry is too expensive to be useful for my liking.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/24 17:17:36


Former moderator 40kOnline

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Proud Phantom Titan







Hollismason i agree with what your saying ... worth pointing out though

Hollismason wrote:
There is also as far as I can see other than adding a Wolf Priest on a SPace Marine bike to the unit which has its obvious disadvantages. no way to give them fearless or a reroll excepting special circumstances.


SM bike =12"move can't run 6"assault
TW cav =6"move fleet 12"assualt
...now add the two and you have a unit that...
Moves 6", can't run and 6" assault
...you'd infact be better adding Wolf priest on foot possibly in terminator armour then at least he could run (even though he can't assualt the same turn)
   
Made in us
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EzeKK wrote:
jsullivanlaw wrote:Point for point, grey hunters are the best troop choice i've seen. Counter attack is huge. It's the TWC that bother me, especially with a wolf lord and with storm shields, very fast and tough to take down. I don't feel comfortable fielding a great unclean one any more which is sad because i loved my paint job. I really have no idea what tyranids will do against jotww...


SWolfs are just a new thing. Like Nob Bikers, Lash, etc. they are just a new type of army people need to learn how to deal with.

Grey Hunters are not the best troops point per point. They can't take HW, and can't get a sarg. They have major drawbacks! They are NICE troops, but not even close to the best.

The best I would have to say are Sisters of Battle. 11 points for a BS4 model with a bolter and a 3+ save? + All the goodies? Yes. YES.

TWC are quite powerful, but if they become (4)5 with a FAQ then they become significantly weaker. They will die just like all the other "big baddies".

GUO is still a monster against TWC. He is your best bet to take them down.

JotWW really isn't all that effective. Really. There are a couple other posts round here that say how underwhelming it is. It is OKAY but truthfully not going to be a game winner 9 times out of 10.

A cheesy build? Spam TWC and grab Njal. That's the cheasiest SW can get IMHO.

But as others say, Cheese is the cry of the unprepared.


The great unclean one is NOT the answer to TWC! A rune priest can kill him on a 4+ even if he is in CC! You can't bring a GUO against space wolves, its a colossal waste of points.
   
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Steelcity

I dont see how SM is "ways ahead" of SW when non-SC marines are in the lowest tier based on army power levels

Vulkan is great sure but after you fire your TL-weapons the unit dies because it has 1 attack when charged where as SW have TRIPLE that.. That makes them MORE versatile than Marines.. Marines just have a higher liklihood of hitting twice with their meltas which still produces the exact same maximum result of (2) hits per unit which SW can do

Lets see

Grey Hunters > Tactical marines as good Sm armies dont use their tacticals to fire heavy weapons (They only take ML and MM cause its free).. and usually the squad is dead too quickly to fire the heavy

Long fangs > devastators. Then again its not hard to be BETTER than devastators

Wolf scouts > SM scouts because they can actually do something and do it effectively (Yes they arent troops but scouts are horrible anyway for a troop choice)

Wolf guard I say are equal to sternguard for the purposes of drop pod meltas because they're only 23 pts instead of 30.. Downside of course is no combat squadding or special ammo but sternguard are suicide units anyway

Rune priests are AMAZING and provide a ton of versatility and KEY POINT they provide outstanding meta-game. Living lightning destroys dark eldar due to unlimited range, murderous hurricane crushes ork squads and tempest wrath hurts eldar.. not to mention 4+ cancel powers

Wolf lords on a wolf are amazing and are better than any of the SM characters due to saga of warrior born..

Wolf priest > chaplain obviously.. not having to charge is huge and since you pick before the game the priests disadvantage is minimal since you know what youre facing

Iron priest > tech priest.. Not for his ability to repair stuff but just that hes 50 pts for a thunderhammer.. can ride a wolf and have wolves as bodyguards

Lets see..

Fenrisian wolves.. Great screen unit and meta-game unit because they're a cheap unit in a marine dex

Ragnar and Logan are each good.. Ragnar can make your army hit like blood angels and logan can give you 6 wolf guard units

Tanks are the same

Loss of attack bikes is the one big annoyance and Blood claws are awful

Also cheap TH/SS terms is a big hit since thats the only great unit in the SM book really

So lets see..

SW troop choices are better than SM tacticals because they can shoot basically the same and yet have 3x the attacks when charged and +1 when charging (Obviously counter charge doesnt ALWAYS work but with a WG leader or rune priest its likely)

SW have better out flankers with their scouts

Rune priests provide one of the best meta-game abilities in ANY codex

Wolf lords on wolves can crush entire units

Logan can let you use all wolf guard if you want

An actually useful devastator squad

A cheap throwaway unit that can still do big damage in assault

How in the world is SM MORE versatile? Vulkan only helps you HIT better he doesnt let you do something you couldnt already do.. and doesnt give you any more options. In reality vulkan makes you LESS versatile as you sacrifice combat tactics for specialization with meltas and flamers

Shrike is interesting but I havent seen any shrike lists go 3 rounds without getting trashed atleast once.. Hed be amazing in an army that could actually kill units in close combat (which marines cannot do without terminators and infiltrating terms is a gimmick that good players can just counter)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/10/24 22:51:07


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Kirasu wrote:I dont see how SM is "ways ahead" of SW when non-SC marines are in the lowest tier based on army power levels


Tiers don't exist in 40k. Almost any army in the game can do well in the right hands.

Kirasu wrote:SW troop choices are better than SM tacticals because they can shoot basically the same and yet have 3x the attacks when charged and +1 when charging (Obviously counter charge doesnt ALWAYS work but with a WG leader or rune priest its likely)


I disagree. Tactical Squads are better at shooting (heavy weapon), harder to kill with shooting, and don't rely on units from other slots (Elite or HQ) to be effective.

Kirasu wrote:How in the world is SM MORE versatile?


Combat Squads and Combat Tactics. Not every Space Marine army takes special characters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/24 23:24:42


 
   
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Riverside CA

Just try to build a force with Logan and 9 Wolf Guard and find a game with that many points. Or for that fact build a 1850 force with anything special like, Plasma Guns, Power Fist, Thunder Hammers and or Storm Shields.

A Standard 5 man Terminator Squad in a Drop Pod [The closest thing to Teleport Attack]. This is the closest I can come to a comparison of the two units between each other in tactical use

Space Marines
5 Terminators
Sergeant with Power Weapon and Storm Bolter
3x Terminators with Power Fist and Storm Bolter
1x Terminator with Chain Fist and Assault Cannon
•235 Points

Space Wolves
1 Wolf Guard with Power Weapon and Storm Bolter
3x Terminators with Power Fist and Storm Bolter
1x Terminator with Chain Fist and Assault Cannon
1x Drop Pod
•275 points

Terminator Assault Squad
Sergeant with Lighting Claws
4x Terminators with Lighting Claws
•200 Points

Space Wolves
1 Wolf Guard with Lighting Claws
3x Terminators with Lighting Claws
1x Drop Pod
•275 points

A minimum point cost any Terminator squad for Space Marines: 200 Points and

A Minimum point cost Terminator Squad for Space Wolves: 165 points and that will give me Storm Bolters and Power Weapons.

Unless I take Drop Pods or Land Raiders I HAVE to walk.

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Kirasu wrote:
Vulkan is great sure but after you fire your TL-weapons the unit dies because it has 1 attack when charged where as SW have TRIPLE that.. That makes them MORE versatile than Marines.. Marines just have a higher liklihood of hitting twice with their meltas which still produces the exact same maximum result of (2) hits per unit which SW can do


Sure, if you're only using tactical Marines. Speeders, on the other hand, can put out the AP4 flamer template (twin linked) and/or the multimelta shot (twin linked). Worried about getting charged? Make sure that you move over 6" and the enemy is hitting on 6's, and you're pushing back all stunned results to shaken if you squadron them. Oh, and they're only 70 points each.

The nastiness of a Vulkan list definitely isn't in tactical squads. If you're evaluating Vulkan lists based on tac squads, you haven't seen them used properly.

Kirasu wrote:

Grey Hunters > Tactical marines as good Sm armies dont use their tacticals to fire heavy weapons (They only take ML and MM cause its free).. and usually the squad is dead too quickly to fire the heavy


Dead too quickly to fire a heavy weapon? How are you using your tactical squads that you're dropping 10 Marines and a Rhino before you even get to fire the heavy weapon?

2/3 of the time you're playing for objectives, and there isn't any more secure way of sitting on an objective than inside a Rhino with 10 Marines. If it's an objective close to your deployment zone, you want something to sling fire across the field so they aren't sitting there doing absolutely nothing.

Kirasu wrote:
Long fangs > devastators. Then again its not hard to be BETTER than devastators



No Marine power lists that I've seen use Devastators, but at least with Devs you get ablative wounds. With Long Fangs, each one that falls is dropping an expensive heavy weapon.

Kirasu wrote:

Rune priests are AMAZING and provide a ton of versatility and KEY POINT they provide outstanding meta-game. Living lightning destroys dark eldar due to unlimited range, murderous hurricane crushes ork squads and tempest wrath hurts eldar.. not to mention 4+ cancel powers

Wolf lords on a wolf are amazing and are better than any of the SM characters due to saga of warrior born..



They also cost a lot more and don't have Eternal Warrior.

Kirasu wrote:

How in the world is SM MORE versatile? Vulkan only helps you HIT better he doesnt let you do something you couldnt already do.. and doesnt give you any more options. In reality vulkan makes you LESS versatile as you sacrifice combat tactics for specialization with meltas and flamers



A good player won't get himself into assaults where it's preferable to run. Even if you do decide to run with Combat Tactics, you run the risk of being caught and having to take the hits. If there's an enemy within 6", you aren't regrouping. It's a lot riskier than it sounds.

Vulkan doesn't allow for anything new, but he makes your most powerful anti-hoarde and anti-armor weapons a lot more certain. Drop that flamer template on a bunch of orks, eldar, guard, whatever, you can be pretty sure that whatever's underneath it is going away. Same with your melta weapons. Want to nuke a Land Raider? It's a lot more certain when your melta weapons are twin linked than watching two multimeltas (that you swore were going to at least shake the thing) fizzle completely.

In short, Vulkan takes a lot of the guess work and chance out of the game for you. This is huge. If your tactics are sound, then your units will perform. You are less likely to get screwed out of a kill / objective / etc. due to a crappy dice roll.

Kirasu wrote:
Shrike is interesting but I havent seen any shrike lists go 3 rounds without getting trashed atleast once.. Hed be amazing in an army that could actually kill units in close combat (which marines cannot do without terminators and infiltrating terms is a gimmick that good players can just counter)


How do you expect to counter 10 TH/SS Terminators sitting on an objective? They can't hold it, but I don't know too many things out there that are harder to push off an objective.

They're not that easy to avoid when they're fleeting across the table.




Khan lists are even uglier. I'd rather outflank in a nice cushy land raider and pop out with furious charge than drop-in in a drop pod. If you're close enough to assault in the following turn, you're close enough to get plasma'ed / melta'ed / vindicatored / battle cannoned / avengered / ap3'd.



There are obviously great things about the SW codex, but I really don't think that they're better than other Marine SC power builds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/25 19:13:06


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Space Wolves also cannot get bikes as troop choices, but do get wolguard if you purchase logan.

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Hollismason wrote:Space Wolves also cannot get bikes as troop choices, but do get wolguard if you purchase logan.

Logan is a red herring and should be ignored for any game that isn't at the very least 2000pts.
   
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UK

Tri wrote:
Hollismason wrote:Space Wolves also cannot get bikes as troop choices, but do get wolguard if you purchase logan.

Logan is a red herring and should be ignored for any game that isn't at the very least 2000pts.


Lies and slander. He adds so much, allows you to take a very troop heavy force and is worth every pt of his 275pt cost. To be fair, he is ony 75pt more than most expensive force-multipler HQ that many winning builds are based around.

Lies. No offence. Sorry. I mean, then, to say I disagree!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
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Wraith




O H I am in the Webway...

jsullivanlaw wrote:
The great unclean one is NOT the answer to TWC! A rune priest can kill him on a 4+ even if he is in CC! You can't bring a GUO against space wolves, its a colossal waste of points.


/facepalm

OMG the RP that can't get a TWC mount will kill the GUO sent to kill TWC! O snap!

The GUO or Fiends are your best bet against them. They either A. Strike First and Rend the %*$& out of them or B. Can tarpit the TWC and take the ST5 hits and be able to hurt the TWC back very effectively!

If you are bringing a GUO you are chaos daemons. If you are chaos daemons, everything you have is a daemon. The RP special rule works against all daemons. You see what's happening here? Yeah, the RP will do that to anyone, Herald, Karnak, whoever the $*#& he wants.

What is guaranteeing the guy has a RP and isn't dead or locked in combat somewhere else? He isn't exactly hard to kill since you can single him out!? I'm also confused why you would be so afraid of a single character you would just take what, heralds? Whom would be actually weaker against TWC? If you have to be afraid of anything as a CD player be afraid of a GKGM that can instagib your characters!

Sorry bud bud, but try again.

And I have to agree with others, Logan is meant for higher (at least 1750) points values. Coming from a deathwing player (all terminators) you should believe this.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/10/26 01:06:04


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Razerous wrote:
Tri wrote:
Hollismason wrote:Space Wolves also cannot get bikes as troop choices, but do get wolguard if you purchase logan.

Logan is a red herring and should be ignored for any game that isn't at the very least 2000pts.


Lies and slander. He adds so much, allows you to take a very troop heavy force and is worth every pt of his 275pt cost. To be fair, he is ony 75pt more than most expensive force-multipler HQ that many winning builds are based around.

Lies. No offence. Sorry. I mean, then, to say I disagree!
There's nothing wrong with him, he's a great all rounder but he does eat a chunk of points. In 1500pts he's almost a 5th of your army ... Also what those force multiplying HQs ... what size games are they being used in? With exceptions for people like Pedro that boost the entire army, I would assume they still are only being used in fairly large games 1850pts+.

That being said if you're taking a wolf lord in terminator armour then you may as well up take Logan ... by the time you've finished upgrading the wolf lord he cost near the same any way ....
   
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UK

His ability to allow for drop-pod awesome anti-tank is just killer. He can then go on to make a squad crazy good in close-combat (Yes he does have to hop-skip on his own between units for a turnish) annd he can LOGANRAWR your entire army with +1A, Which I think is fairly Hauuuge.

He can also thwart certain counters like pinnng tau & IG battle-psykers. He's also meaty as meaty chips on a sunday with 4 wounds, a 2+/4++ and eternal warrior, there are meaty cheaps (Saturday ones) but its still worthy.

He does cost nearly 1/5 of your army in 1500pts but he allows 3/5's+ of your army to be troops & remain effective.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Friend of mine just sent me this:

"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ."
Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!

Heh.  
   
Made in gb
Proud Phantom Titan







Razerous wrote:His ability to allow for drop-pod awesome anti-tank is just killer. He can then go on to make a squad crazy good in close-combat (Yes he does have to hop-skip on his own between units for a turnish) annd he can LOGANRAWR your entire army with +1A, Which I think is fairly Hauuuge.

He can also thwart certain counters like pinnng tau & IG battle-psykers. He's also meaty as meaty chips on a sunday with 4 wounds, a 2+/4++ and eternal warrior, there are meaty cheaps (Saturday ones) but its still worthy.

He does cost nearly 1/5 of your army in 1500pts but he allows 3/5's+ of your army to be troops & remain effective.
4 wounds? he has 3 same as every other wolf lord. He cannot counter pinning due to the fact his ability stops at the end of your turn.

Don't get me wrong some great skills but I feel you can build better lists without him in the lower point games. Also +1A great as it is can currently be achieved via a much cheaper WH Inquisitor with Inquisitorial mandate (60pts +weapons) ... (yes you could take both and then really mess up an enemy's day)
   
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Tri wrote:
Razerous wrote:His ability to allow for drop-pod awesome anti-tank is just killer. He can then go on to make a squad crazy good in close-combat (Yes he does have to hop-skip on his own between units for a turnish) annd he can LOGANRAWR your entire army with +1A, Which I think is fairly Hauuuge.

He can also thwart certain counters like pinnng tau & IG battle-psykers. He's also meaty as meaty chips on a sunday with 4 wounds, a 2+/4++ and eternal warrior, there are meaty cheaps (Saturday ones) but its still worthy.

He does cost nearly 1/5 of your army in 1500pts but he allows 3/5's+ of your army to be troops & remain effective.
4 wounds? he has 3 same as every other wolf lord. He cannot counter pinning due to the fact his ability stops at the end of your turn.

Don't get me wrong some great skills but I feel you can build better lists without him in the lower point games. Also +1A great as it is can currently be achieved via a much cheaper WH Inquisitor with Inquisitorial mandate (60pts +weapons) ... (yes you could take both and then really mess up an enemy's day)

And the WH dex covers the new SW dex, right?

3 wounds, my mistake.

It either continues for the entire turn (including both player turns) or you can choose an ability for Logan (and his unit etc) at the beginning of each turn (each player turn) so that doesnt really work im afraid. Either way you wish to phrase "turn" (And it is clarifyed in the BGB), its groovy.
   
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Terminators in SW = Bad. More expensive then GK termies thats sad...

No Attack bikes makes me sad.

But for chesse.

Thunderwolf's
Rune Priest
Long Fangs with Logan Grimnar =ouch

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Fetterkey wrote:
Tiers don't exist in 40k. Almost any army in the game can do well in the right hands.


I don't agree with that statement, but even if true, it's nonsense. If not all armies can do well in the right hands (which is what you claim) then there are at least two tiers (which contradict your first phrase).

   
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Razerous wrote:And the WH dex covers the new SW dex, right?
Yes you can take DH or WH in your space wolves army. If any one complains feel free to point out that every single codex that can allie with them has also been re-released at least once.
It either continues for the entire turn (including both player turns) or you can choose an ability for Logan (and his unit etc) at the beginning of each turn (each player turn) so that doesnt really work im afraid. Either way you wish to phrase "turn" (And it is clarifyed in the BGB), its groovy.

Don't get me wrong I'd love it if he can but you're not allowed to do something in the enemies phase unless told so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/25 22:59:25


 
   
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Florida

Polonius wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:
Tiers don't exist in 40k. Almost any army in the game can do well in the right hands.


I don't agree with that statement, but even if true, it's nonsense. If not all armies can do well in the right hands (which is what you claim) then there are at least two tiers (which contradict your first phrase).


This just sounds like you wanna argue for the sake of arguing. Any army can be better than another since people always describe "cheese" in its base scenario not in all around terms. The main thing with sw is they are new and people don't have a ton of strategies to counter them so they cry cheese. The wolves still can't bring as much mobile fire power as the guard, they don't have the deepstrike options that others do, they can't spam their strong stuff like other armies, terrain is a bane to to their cc nature, etc. They put flashy stuff in codexes to continue the game you guys like but with each new codex there is so much whining. Ok so now nobody buys the new stuff and we get stuck in limbo and then get nothing. You guys will figure out stuff to fight them, quite the whining.
   
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Toledo, OH

WarmasterScott wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:
Tiers don't exist in 40k. Almost any army in the game can do well in the right hands.


I don't agree with that statement, but even if true, it's nonsense. If not all armies can do well in the right hands (which is what you claim) then there are at least two tiers (which contradict your first phrase).


This just sounds like you wanna argue for the sake of arguing. Any army can be better than another since people always describe "cheese" in its base scenario not in all around terms. The main thing with sw is they are new and people don't have a ton of strategies to counter them so they cry cheese. The wolves still can't bring as much mobile fire power as the guard, they don't have the deepstrike options that others do, they can't spam their strong stuff like other armies, terrain is a bane to to their cc nature, etc. They put flashy stuff in codexes to continue the game you guys like but with each new codex there is so much whining. Ok so now nobody buys the new stuff and we get stuck in limbo and then get nothing. You guys will figure out stuff to fight them, quite the whining.


Are you talking to me or Fetterkey about arguing for the sake of arguing? I mean, to argue there is no variance in power level between the various codices is simply naive. While the precise tiers some people develop might be the result of false accuracy and local metagames, I don't think anybody is going to seriously argue that, say, demonhunters or tau can win major tournaments as easily as Chaos or IG. That a skilled player can succeed with those lists is also undeniable, but there's still the fact that some codices have more intuitive builds, more forgiving builds, or simply offer more firepower. So, while a really well built list played well can succeed, and people shouldn't blame as much of their success on "teirs," a blanket claim that they don't exist is naive to the point of willful ignorance.

   
Made in gb
Proud Phantom Titan







I don't like the idea of tiers ether but there are 3

1st tier are the new codexs SM, IG and SW ... these guys where designed to work in the 5TH Edition
2nd tier CSM, eldar, daemons, DA, BA and orks ... these guys where designed to work in the 4TH with some 5TH knowledge
3rd tier Tau, necron, BT, DH, WH DE and Nids .... these poor sods haven't had an update since 4th (3rd in some cases) they've no rules written for 5th and are only just still usable.
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Florida

Polonius wrote:
WarmasterScott wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:
Tiers don't exist in 40k. Almost any army in the game can do well in the right hands.


I don't agree with that statement, but even if true, it's nonsense.


This just sounds like you wanna argue for the sake of arguing. Any army can be better than another since people always describe "cheese" in its base scenario not in all around terms. The main thing with sw is they are new and people don't have a ton of strategies to counter them so they cry cheese. The wolves still can't bring as much mobile fire power as the guard, they don't have the deepstrike options that others do, they can't spam their strong stuff like other armies, terrain is a bane to to their cc nature, etc. They put flashy stuff in codexes to continue the game you guys like but with each new codex there is so much whining. Ok so now nobody buys the new stuff and we get stuck in limbo and then get nothing. You guys will figure out stuff to fight them, quite the whining.




Are you talking to me or Fetterkey about arguing for the sake of arguing? I mean, to argue there is no variance in power level between the various codices is simply naive. While the precise tiers some people develop might be the result of false accuracy and local metagames, I don't think anybody is going to seriously argue that, say, demonhunters or tau can win major tournaments as easily as Chaos or IG. That a skilled player can succeed with those lists is also undeniable, but there's still the fact that some codices have more intuitive builds, more forgiving builds, or simply offer more firepower. So, while a really well built list played well can succeed, and people shouldn't blame as much of their success on "teirs," a blanket claim that they don't exist is naive to the point of willful ignorance.



Well wouldn't it be more accurate to say then that some codexes have more reliable tournament builds? I mean by saying that you are quite as abrasive to people who do like those armies described as "lower" tier. I myself like building tournament type lists due to the cost of the hobby. I mean if I'm gonna shell out the money for my IG, Eldar, CSM, SW, DoC, and WoC I would like to see them at the very least competitive. I have had these armies a long time so I find it funny that when they're the new thing they are cheesy .. Ok from my exp with the new sw I have beaten IG, Tau, SM, CSM, Necrons, Eldar, tied a SoB, and lost to grey knight/SM. oh and this was the statement I was refering to "If not all armies can do well in the right hands (which is what you claim) then there are at least two tiers (which contradict your first phrase)." I think he meant the build of the list not the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote:
WarmasterScott wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:
Tiers don't exist in 40k. Almost any army in the game can do well in the right hands.


I don't agree with that statement, but even if true, it's nonsense.


This just sounds like you wanna argue for the sake of arguing. Any army can be better than another since people always describe "cheese" in its base scenario not in all around terms. The main thing with sw is they are new and people don't have a ton of strategies to counter them so they cry cheese. The wolves still can't bring as much mobile fire power as the guard, they don't have the deepstrike options that others do, they can't spam their strong stuff like other armies, terrain is a bane to to their cc nature, etc. They put flashy stuff in codexes to continue the game you guys like but with each new codex there is so much whining. Ok so now nobody buys the new stuff and we get stuck in limbo and then get nothing. You guys will figure out stuff to fight them, quite the whining.




Are you talking to me or Fetterkey about arguing for the sake of arguing? I mean, to argue there is no variance in power level between the various codices is simply naive. While the precise tiers some people develop might be the result of false accuracy and local metagames, I don't think anybody is going to seriously argue that, say, demonhunters or tau can win major tournaments as easily as Chaos or IG. That a skilled player can succeed with those lists is also undeniable, but there's still the fact that some codices have more intuitive builds, more forgiving builds, or simply offer more firepower. So, while a really well built list played well can succeed, and people shouldn't blame as much of their success on "teirs," a blanket claim that they don't exist is naive to the point of willful ignorance.



Well wouldn't it be more accurate to say then that some codexes have more reliable tournament builds? I mean by saying that you are quite as abrasive to people who do like those armies described as "lower" tier. I myself like building tournament type lists due to the cost of the hobby. I mean if I'm gonna shell out the money for my IG, Eldar, CSM, SW, DoC, and WoC I would like to see them at the very least competitive. I have had these armies a long time so I find it funny that when they're the new thing they are cheesy .. Ok from my exp with the new sw I have beaten IG, Tau, SM, CSM, Necrons, Eldar, tied a SoB, and lost to grey knight/SM. oh and this was the statement I was refering to "If not all armies can do well in the right hands (which is what you claim) then there are at least two tiers (which contradict your first phrase)." I think he meant the build of the list not the codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/10/25 23:10:14


 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

WarmasterScott wrote:
Well wouldn't it be more accurate to say then that some codexes have more reliable tournament builds? I mean by saying that you are quite as abrasive to people who do like those armies described as "lower" tier. I myself like building tournament type lists due to the cost of the hobby. I mean if I'm gonna shell out the money for my IG, Eldar, CSM, SW, DoC, and WoC I would like to see them at the very least competitive. I have had these armies a long time so I find it funny that when they're the new thing they are cheesy .. Ok from my exp with the new sw I have beaten IG, Tau, SM, CSM, Necrons, Eldar, tied a SoB, and lost to grey knight/SM. oh and this was the statement I was refering to "If not all armies can do well in the right hands (which is what you claim) then there are at least two tiers (which contradict your first phrase)." I think he meant the build of the list not the codex.


I'm not sure what you mean by abrasive. I'm sorry if I deeply offend DH and DA players, but I think the secret that they're codices are underpowered in competitive play is out. This is a tactics forum, and part of that is going to involve discussions about rankings. It sounds like your confusing an objective appraisal of the system, as it stands, with a tacit approval of that system. I think that all codices should be as closely balanced as possible, and having had a tournament competitive main army (IG) for about six months out of the last 7 years I think I understand what it's like to have a lot of stuff that's not horribly good.

I'm also not calling anything cheesy. I think it's the smart and proper thing to build the army that you like, and if you like to win build a good list out of a good codex.

I don't see how it matters if we're talking about builds or codexes. I'm not entirely following your train of thought though, so maybe you could clarify.
   
Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan



UK

Tri wrote:but you're not allowed to do something in the enemies phase unless told so.


Read Logans rule. What does it say?

Read p9 of the BGB (Top right paragraph). What does it say?

"Turn = player turn".

"The High King:.. each turn... duration of that player turn".

Instructions. Volia.
   
Made in no
Fresh-Faced New User




If you're attempting to argue that say, the tau, tyranid, daemonhunters or sm codex is on par with the ig codex you're objectively wrong, straight up.
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Florida

Polonius wrote:
WarmasterScott wrote:
Well wouldn't it be more accurate to say then that some codexes have more reliable tournament builds? I mean by saying that you are quite as abrasive to people who do like those armies described as "lower" tier. I myself like building tournament type lists due to the cost of the hobby. I mean if I'm gonna shell out the money for my IG, Eldar, CSM, SW, DoC, and WoC I would like to see them at the very least competitive. I have had these armies a long time so I find it funny that when they're the new thing they are cheesy .. Ok from my exp with the new sw I have beaten IG, Tau, SM, CSM, Necrons, Eldar, tied a SoB, and lost to grey knight/SM. oh and this was the statement I was refering to "If not all armies can do well in the right hands (which is what you claim) then there are at least two tiers (which contradict your first phrase)." I think he meant the build of the list not the codex.


I'm not sure what you mean by abrasive. I'm sorry if I deeply offend DH and DA players, but I think the secret that they're codices are underpowered in competitive play is out. This is a tactics forum, and part of that is going to involve discussions about rankings. It sounds like your confusing an objective appraisal of the system, as it stands, with a tacit approval of that system. I think that all codices should be as closely balanced as possible, and having had a tournament competitive main army (IG) for about six months out of the last 7 years I think I understand what it's like to have a lot of stuff that's not horribly good.

I'm also not calling anything cheesy. I think it's the smart and proper thing to build the army that you like, and if you like to win build a good list out of a good codex.

I don't see how it matters if we're talking about builds or codexes. I'm not entirely following your train of thought though, so maybe you could clarify.


Sorry I'm loading a lot into a very short brief answer. Very little was meant towards the quote.I'm at work and posting in between renders for a animation game sequence. I will clarify a bit later after work. It's crunch time at work.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





Polonius wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:
Tiers don't exist in 40k. Almost any army in the game can do well in the right hands.


I don't agree with that statement, but even if true, it's nonsense. If not all armies can do well in the right hands (which is what you claim) then there are at least two tiers (which contradict your first phrase).



Tiers imply that there's an actual stable ranking of some kind. The 40k metagame is so underdeveloped and unstable that what is good is unclear. What isn't good is even harder to discern.
   
 
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