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So this year I've decided to start an Eldar army, being my first army, i admit that I don't know too much about the Eldar's fighting style. But, even though I'm still sorta a novice to the team, I do realize about exactly how vicious Howling Banshees are. Theoretically, I shouldn't care that these cheaply priced women armed with power weapons are cheap in my favour, being only 16pts(as a base, no points are needed for the use of their mirrorswords) for an attack each turn that ignores armour saves. But, although I generally enjoy mocking my opponents in battle about my fortune of cheap weaponry, something still makes me think about the huge price difference with armies like SM for power weapons.

Even though this huge price difference is unfair, I gotta say I love how bloody things get when your Howling Banshees exarch is armed with two mirrorswords, giving it four strength 4 attacks with a WS of 5, along with armour ignoring, this truly is the incarnation of evil.

other than the exarch, I've noticed HB squads aren't all they crack up to be. Yeah, they attack first with a ton of PW attacks. However, being Str 3 and still needing 4's to hit on MEQ's makes them not as great as they sound. I've seen many a game where banshees charge in, knock down 4 or so marines, only to get 4 or so of themselves killed in the process because marines need 3's to wound. Banshees aren't nearly as fearsome as, say, an orc choppa/slugga mob charging you, or a full squad of khorne berserkers charging you.

Banshees are good, I'll admit, but overall I've never been impressed by them. I find Harlequins typically (in every game I've faced eldar in) outperform banshees by a large margin.

I've found you really need some of the Farseer powers to make them own. The most notable would be Doom, letting them re-roll wounds. Re-rolling saves with Fortune can obviously help a lot, but can be tougher to get on them due to the 6" casting range. Without a Farseer you're likely to see better kill returns giving your Exarch and Executioner.

I would counter the argument that banshees are good for their points with the fact that they never show up in tournament lists.

1-Weak. They are feared when you get doom off and they can charge. However normally they arent so great. And they die very very fast to return fire. The nice thing about the council or scorpions is they can survive some shots, which takes me to my next point.

2-support. Ive seen the following unit do alright. 10 banshees, farseer with fortune/doom, and wave serpent. Sure it can butcher a tac squad on the charge, and the banshees might only cost 200 points with exarch. Factor in the seer and serpent, required support, and you have a pretty bad unit. For that many points I can get 20 tac marines with gubbinz. Which leads me to point 3.

3- One trick pony. Send them at a carnifex, or into a squad that strikes first, and they are dead. So if you run them dirt cheap on foot they will die from gunfire. Or drop many more points into stuff and enjoy your one trick pony assault only unit.

Eldar, more then any other army i think, rely on synergy. You have no units that can do everything. There are no units I can think of that can move fast, shoot, and assault. Some can do two of these, but we call them wraithlords.

Ah, i see, I guess thats probably the reason why harlequins also cost more, points wise. But even though they seem to not be too great when charging, i suppose if your aim is to use them as a sorta assassination team to take down an opponents HQ unit (yes, I do know thats a Striking Scorpion's job), they'd be great, especially seeing the exarch has a great amount of attacks to hand out and relatively high initiative to make it count.

Basically it works like this.
Banshees-kill basic marines dead, need lots of support
Scorpions-kill hordes and some marines, need minimal support.
Harlequins-kill most stuff dead, need no support, just planning, but cost a lot more individually.

And Harlequins are generally the best to use as assassin units.

I have to make a few very needed corrections just so you know what you're getting into and know the right numbers:

#1: Banshees are S3, which means the need FIVES to wound (and obviously kill) marines, not 4's.

#2: They strike at unmodified I10 at first round of combat, which is fantastic, but the regular banshee still needs 4's to hit.

#3: Mirrorswords give +2 attacks, giving the exarch 4 attacks. They do NOT give a strength bonus, so you basically are paying for 4 instead of 3 S3 power attacks. The exarch will need 3's to hit marines, but they'll still need 5's to wound.

#4: If you are thinking the exarch can have a strength bonus, she can by way of a executioner. This two handed weapon makes her S5, but leaves her with 2 attacks when not charging.

#5: Basically, Eidolon has it exactly right when comparing the hand to hand eldar. Unfortunately, with the new rules for rending harlequins are about half of what they used to be...

I hope this helps you in your planning... Being an eldar player for a little while now they'll always come down to this simple fact: NO eldar unit works well without support, otherwise they'll die. You have to have a delicate hand when playing them and know the strengths of each unit and make sure the right unit is fighting against the right unit all the time. Enjoy the ride, eldar are very fun once you get the hang of them!

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:
I hope this helps you in your planning... Being an eldar player for a little while now they'll always come down to this simple fact: NO eldar unit works well without support, otherwise they'll die. You have to have a delicate hand when playing them and know the strengths of each unit and make sure the right unit is fighting against the right unit all the time. Enjoy the ride, eldar are very fun once you get the hang of them!

Indeed. For a middle of the road dex an experienced eldar general can really put the spanking down on most other armies. Then again, thats the theme of the army. "There is no handicap", at least in 5th. 4th you just deployed and could beat half the players out there.

i remembered a game i played, we rolled for first turn, i won, after we finished deploying my opponent told me to roll a dice, and he said 3456, i said uhhh ooookkk.. and i rolled and got a 3 and he said cool you win and packed up his stuff and sat down

Thanks guys, its always great to have someone to get your info from so this is helpful stuff. And yeah, I might reconsider the use of banshees seeing as Striking Scorpions obviously can take some more fire and hand out some more power.

Bramnero wrote:Thanks guys, its always great to have someone to get your info from so this is helpful stuff. And yeah, I might reconsider the use of banshees seeing as Striking Scorpions obviously can take some more fire and hand out some more power.

Just remember, every aspect has its role. A scorpion can still die easy, there's a lot of AP3 out their and they are slow.

# of units to cause a kill

vs Teminators:
3 Banshees
6 Scorps
vs Marines:
2 Banshees
3 Scorps
vs Necrons:
2 Banshees
6 Scorps
vs Tau:
1 Banshee
1.2 Scorps
vs Guard:
1 Banshee
0.9 Scorps
vs True Eldar:
1.33 Banshees
1.13 Scorps
vs Orcs:
2 Banshees
1.2 Scorps

(feel free to check my math)

Banshees are generally better CC combatants than Scorps, and can fleet.

It's up to you if the 3+ saves make it more worthwhile to use scorpions.

Banshees are great against marines, and since 3/4 of what you will fight are marines, Banshees are great. While Banshees may need 4s to hit and 5s to wound, don't forget that tac marines are fairly pathetic in hand to hand and the Banshees still have a 4+ armor save to rely on. Against tougher assault style marines, banshees may have to worry about actually losing but the stuff they kill will be a lot more expensive than themselves. While scorps have a 3+ armor save, Banshees with fleet may be more survivable against shooting as they can use that fleet to make assault and avoid some shooting attacks all together. Both are good units. Banshees = Great against elite power armor armies, Scorpions = Great against horde armies, Harlequins = Great against eldar armies.

Complain to JJ.

I've fought Howling Banshees twice. The first time I mowed them down with heavy bolters before they could get to me. The second time my tac squad beat them to death in close combat, without taking a single wound.

These are isolated incidents, obviously. They can do well if they're in a transport and are supported well. They're fragile as hell though, so you have to really rely on getting a lot of wounds right on the charge.

Using DE, I once blocked the back of a Wave Serpent with my Raider, then blew up the wave serpent in shooting. With only one access point (that's a big weakness...), all the Banshees died. My friend was royally pissed.


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How much are Bloodletters or the other khorne thingies.

They all have power weapons, at a MUCH higher strength, more attacks, more toughness and better armor.

They cost the same as Banshees, and they can capture objectives too. Not to mention WS5.

They have a weaker save, but it's invulnerable, and offset by their higher Toughness.

Lower initiative, but furious charge means they'll strike before most MEqs anyway.

S5 on the charge.

Power Weapons.

Really, the only disadvantage they have is no pistols (which doesn't matter when concerning close combat weaponry, since they have 2 base attacks to match anyway), and their more random deployment, which is offset by the fact that they get to choose wherever the hell they want to come in.

Having used both banshees and Bloodletters, they are moderately different beasts.

Banshees:
Pros:
Fleet (stay out of rapid fire range, lessen worry about not making charges into cover)
I10 on charge even into cover (Khorne giveth no grenades)
4+ save (its better)
Can take a transport
Can be doomed (eldar is all about synergy)

Cons:
T3
S3
4+ save (its not invulnerable, and heavy bolters make banshees cry)

Bloodletters:
Pros:
Troops
ws5
S5 on charge, s4 otherwise= dead marines
still high enough initiative to go before MEQs on charge, otherwise same
T4
Can be taken in squads up to 20
Fearless
5++

Cons:
6" movement + 6" assault means you get rapid fired at least once before charging in... can ruin your day quick 10 bolters kills about 4-5.
Deepstriking is a blessing and a curse (you cannot charge after deepstriking and scattering too close to a tac squad with flamers means lots of dead letters)
You are usually outnumbered as your army comes in piecemeal
Charging into cover means they go first, 6 marine attacks to kill a letter (1/(1/2*1/2*2/3))
If you are loosing combat fearless (stupid dreads)

the reason letters are so so is because a squad of 10 marines in cover will kill 6 (4 from shooting 2 in assault) before letters attack. The letters will still win combat, but if the marines get 2 turns of shooting (bad assault role... bad scatter)

Letters are much much better when they get into assault and are better against more units, but banshees can get into assault easier and are much better when you have to remove someone from cover. IMHO.

Eldar is about synergy... You just have to make sure that you have your bases covered and aren't leaving yourself open. Harlequins will absolutely die in combat against orcs, but against terminators or a single daemon prince they can do wonders. Why? Invulnerable save, high WS, high I, rending, high number of attacks.

See how that won't help against 30 attacks that are coming at S4? Scorpions however, can dish out 3 attacks per model before anyone else gets a chance, take a beating (as long as there aren't power weapons involved), and tarpit anyone. But would you pit scorpions against a single daemon? Not a chance.

Banshees are the step in between Harlequins & banshees: High I, power weapons, decent number of attacks. They don't have an invul and don't have good armour either. If they have support from a farseer and avengers or guardians are giving them some shooting help they can get in and go to town. Leave anything on its own and it'll be squashed, either through volume of fire/attacks or high strength attacks from very powerful characters.

Something else I found was really useful are warlocks. If you include a seer 10 warlocks are almost always a better buy then 10 of any aspect warrior, even for the increased points.

Nah- just because they have more special rules than most armies- dwarfed only by the redundant Harliquins- hahah Why would you think they were underpriced...hahah? Yeah they are ridiculous- but at the same time IF- IF you can get to shoot them- they are usually torn up if they don't make the universal 4+ cover save of 5th edition...

HB squads are low in price because theyre very fragile. If the eldar were T4 theyre unit prices would rocket. Thier many PW attacks are 'evened' by thier puny S of 3. Howling banshees can kill easily but can also be killed easily and its thier armour save that keeps them in the game, with some decent capacity AP4 weapons thier days are numbered. However i do remember the time when my HB exarch survived a heavy bolter round.

Normally I would go with that explination- it is what every Eldar player says- but the "weak strength" stuff is b.s. because the player always uses Doom withit- if there is a small chance that they won't wound- I know they are seperate units- blah blah- but the fact that that happens 99% of the time that I have played against them seems it should be given some small amount of credit..

Ok, take into account the price of the farseer with doom in addition to the cost of the Banshees. Cheaper or more expensive than Bloodletters?

well i would say bloodletters are always less expensive, but i feel that about most of the daemon army is discounted slightly (except daemon princes...) but its made up for in that fact you always come in reserves, waves are random, and you will mishap with some of your squads (or deepstrike into terrain and loose a few... its happens so often)

Oh and i think the reason people like seer councils is because they are one of the few eldar units that can survive on their own without support, very few other units can claim that.

I couldn't tell you- how many unit only rules do bloodletters have? 1- 2?

Maybe I'm biased... but I don't see banshees as being even slightly overpowered. T3 4+ saves...

Yeah.. so I play DE with a lot of wyches, which eat banshees for breakfast...

And I was once omgwtfbbqed by a bunch of deep striking bloodletters (that were able to assault when they appeared), and was hit with 50 str 5 power weapon attacks...

There are 3 infantry-grade units I can think of with all-around power weapons:

Banshee: 16pts
Bloodletters: 16pts (someone said same price as banshees...)
Incubi: 25 pts

Looking at this.. I think Incubi should get a price decrease!!

I'm paying 9 points for -1 T, +1 I and a +3 save (no invulnerable though).

The only other dudes are terminators, and they're just pricey...

First of all lets stop pretending Dark eldar is a real codex- thta book is what ten years old- we all know that someday GW will make a new one- but it is a bad example-
yeah tougness 3 and a 4= save - how are you suppossed to live- oh wait now I remember- In 10-or 5 later, power weapons, counter attack (+1 at), -1 Ws to opponent if LD is failed, Fleet of foot, etc... I don't know- I honestly don't think they are a bad unit I just think 5th ed. H2H is terrible.

Um where you playing planetstrike, because they cant do that, which is the biggest weakness of the unit. Saying that i believe daemons would be amazing at planet strike as attackers...

A few more i can think of, Pariahs, but really you dont want to compare them, they suck. Decent stats, but absolutely useless (a cc unit that has to walk everywhere... great) another would be Burna Boyz, Mega Nobz.

Incubi could possibly use a point decrease, but that is one of the lesser problems in the army book.

I think it may be hard to price units now since the game dynamic has started to change. The newer codexes have been fairly wild when it comes to what they will put in them. There really seems to be no limits to what they will let pass in a codex now- so the older codexes will suffer - of course...


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Don't they have acrobatic flip or something silly? Just give them, furious charge and they will be fine...with strength 4 they should be cool right?


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MAn- I forgot about Pariahs- and Flayed ones- man they are not good- hopefully they will bet a good makeover...