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Ok, dont have my codex but IIRC a ork dread has 3 attacks on its profile and is armed with two CCW, is this attack included in its profile?? I thought no because a kan has 2. Then if i add more CCW do i get more extra attacks, i seem to remember reading somewhere that this is not the case, but that may have been WHFB.

IIRC (at work with no codex) buying additional DCCWs give you additional attacks. The two that come standard are included in the profile.

I agree with phillosmaster's interpretion. The ones you have to begin with is included in the profile and for each extra CCW you get +1 attack.

The second one that it comes with shouldn't be included in its profile. For every other unit in the game that comes standard with two close combat weapons its not.

However, the Ork FAQ says otherwise. For some reason, they decided to make the Ork dread an exception to the normal rules. It only gets bonuses for the additional weapons, with the first two being accounted for in the profile.

So basically (assuming it has 3 attacks in profile) he has 2 attacks, but has already 2 DCCW and so has 3 attacks in profile. This may be upgraded to 5 (from 2 extra DCCW)
Kinda funny thing is that it has 3 attacks even though it had only one DCCW or even none left.

Don't you lose an attack for the loss of each DCCW? Ie Lose one, reduce to 2 attacks. Lose both, reduce to 1 attack? Hmmm, rereading the rule would seem it only applies to "additional" DCCW and their "bonus" attacks - so RAW you would be right! However, once you lost your last DCCW that would be 3x S5 non-PW attacks...

phillosmaster wrote:IIRC (at work with no codex) buying additional DCCWs give you additional attacks. The two that come standard are included in the profile.

Traditionally profiles that include extra attacks are noted as follows: 2(3)A
where the number between brackets is the one that includes the extra attack.
The profile of the ork drad does not have this notation, this raises the question:
how did you arrive to the conclusion that it's included?

Another thing, IF the 3 in the profile really includes the second DCCW and the dread is reduced to a single weapon it'll still have 3 attacks, this is clearly wrong, from which follows that the basic assumption (ie that the profile includes the extra A) is also wrong.

The Ork FAQ says so, page 3.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The Ork FAQ says so, page 3.

Unfortunately the faq does not specify that you are no longer eligible for the +1A from the brb and thus repeats the caveat they introduced in the book.

Q. How many Attacks does a Deff Dread armed
with three or four close combat weapons have?
A. A Deff Dread with three close combat weapons
had 4 Attacks, whilst a Deff Dread with four of
them has 5 Attacks.

Seem pretty clear to me. There's no reason to assume that having 2 DCCWs would also give 4 attacks.

The FAQ contradicts the Codex.
As it's not errata it's a matter of opinion what ruling should be used. There is no wrong answer.

The FAQ doesnt contradict the codex, it contradicts the BRB on how bonus attacks are shown - normally they aren't, the FAQ essentially states they are.

In this case the FAQ states exactly how many attacks it has, so you use that.

Webbe wrote:The FAQ contradicts the Codex.
As it's not errata it's a matter of opinion what ruling should be used. There is no wrong answer.

Im sorry but its ON THE GW FAQ SITE. So Im guessing that since it says how many attacks on there, thats how many it gets. The BRB is good and all, but the part where it says codex rules over ride the BRB, and since the Ork FAQ says how many it gets, then Im guessing thats right. NOT what it says in the BRB

Right seems like it is included oh well. I will arm mine with another CCW, 5 attacks on the charge is not to bad.

I had though that it might get 3 attacks because a kan, which i think is piloted by grots, hence the BS 3, has 2 basicattacks, one more than a grot. So a dread, which i think is piloted by orks, hence a BS or only 2, has 3 basic attacks which is one more than an ork.

Walkers generally get thier attacks from a base of 1.
Then an extra attack per D/CCW.

So, a kan gets 1 to start with, then an additional one from its DCCW.

The Deff dread gets 1 to start with, then a further 2 from with DCCW's. (which can then be put up to 5 from 2 more)

The reason they allways can retain a single attack is to stop them being locked in combat without being able to attack.
so the single attack they do get is impossible to remove.

If any of that made sense

nostromo wrote:Traditionally profiles that include extra attacks are noted as follows: 2(3)A

I don't recall ever having seen that used for attacks. They've done it before for Toughness, but 'traditionally' extra attacks from weaponry simply haven't been included in the profile.

Insaniak: I have seen the brackets included on the attacks profile, ill dig about, i know its in one of my books somewhere

Insaniak - pretty sure the 3.5ed Chaos Codex lists 2(3) for dreadnoughts

insaniak wrote:

nostromo wrote:Traditionally profiles that include extra attacks are noted as follows: 2(3)A

I don't recall ever having seen that used for attacks. They've done it before for Toughness, but 'traditionally' extra attacks from weaponry simply haven't been included in the profile.

The Ironclad Dreadnought is the first thing to pop into my mind that is listed that way.

Interestingly, the defiler in "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" actually matches with the Deff Dread FAQ ruling, it's profile lists it as having "3" attacks, no brackets or anything, and it comes with two close combat weapons, it then goes on to say "(extra attack already included in the profile above)".

KingCracker wrote:

Webbe wrote:The FAQ contradicts the Codex.
As it's not errata it's a matter of opinion what ruling should be used. There is no wrong answer.

Im sorry but its ON THE GW FAQ SITE. So Im guessing that since it says how many attacks on there, thats how many it gets. The BRB is good and all, but the part where it says codex rules over ride the BRB, and since the Ork FAQ says how many it gets, then Im guessing thats right. NOT what it says in the BRB

You know what else it says on the gw faq site,

"The FAQs on the other hand are very much 'soft' material. They deal with more of a grey area, where often there is no right and wrong answer - in a way, they are our own 'Studio House Rules'."

So no, just because its on the gw faq page means nothing, until they say that faqs are hard rules and not house rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak - pretty sure the 3.5ed Chaos Codex lists 2(3) for dreadnoughts

Nope, the Chaos Dread had 3 attacks in the last two codexes. It only came with a single CCW standard.

Drunkspleen wrote:The Ironclad Dreadnought is the first thing to pop into my mind that is listed that way.

So it does. As does the Ork Dreadnought from the last codex. Shows what I know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kill dem stunties wrote:So no, just because its on the gw faq page means nothing, until they say that faqs are hard rules and not house rules.

Please have a read through the Tenets of YMDC.

So far as rules discussions are concerned, the FAQs are to be considered as official material, since the vast majority of players use them as such. Yes, they're listed as being 'studio house rules' ... but that in itself makes them 'official' enough for most.

You are, of course, free to disregard them in your own games. But please don't go dredging up the whole Official vs Non-Official debate all over again. We've been down that road, and it wasn't much fun for anybody concerned.

Ok, so how do you guys play weapon destroyed results on Ork Dreads?

For example, say a Deff Dread with 2 Big Shootas (and, of course, the 2 CCWs that it comes with) takes a weapon destroyed result. The shooting player decides to destroy one of the CCWs-what does this do? Per the FAQ, since that second CCW isn't providing a bonus attack, destroying it does...nothing?

Or do you just accept that the third attack in the profile IS actually a bonus attack, and that cutting the Deff Dread down to one CCW takes it to 2 attacks?

I would play it as the dread losing an attack each time it loses an arm.

But RAW, it only loses an attack for each of the additional arms. Losing either of the first two arms will have no effect.

How you determine whether the arm lost is one of the original ones or an additional one is anyone's guess.

insaniak wrote:I would play it as the dread losing an attack each time it loses an arm.

But RAW, it only loses an attack for each of the additional arms. Losing either of the first two arms will have no effect.

How you determine whether the arm lost is one of the original ones or an additional one is anyone's guess.

?shouldn't it be more abstract, every arm lost over the starting number of arms removes one attack?

Tri wrote:

insaniak wrote:I would play it as the dread losing an attack each time it loses an arm.

But RAW, it only loses an attack for each of the additional arms. Losing either of the first two arms will have no effect.

How you determine whether the arm lost is one of the original ones or an additional one is anyone's guess.

?shouldn't it be more abstract, every arm lost over the starting number of arms removes one attack?

I agree with that, as far as it goes, Tri. Going from four CCWs to three should definitely cause the dread to go from five attacks to four, and going from three CCWs to two should definitely drop the dread from four attacks to three.

My question is what happens when you go from two CCWs to one. There's no longer a bonus attack to lose, unless you're going to count the third attack included in the dread's profile as a bonus attack. Which is probably the easiest way to play it, and might be RAI, but definitely isn't RAW. Insaniak is right by RAW, I think-but then the second CCW does nothing. Except, I guess, make it harder to take all of the weapons off of the dread.

Heh, it must be nice to just shut down discussion that disagrees with your own conclusions er insaniak, pretty fascist if you ask me.

I'm not shutting it down because it disagrees with my own conclusions.

I'm shutting it down because we've had that discussion before, it wasn't a pretty sight, and we've established a common ground here on the forums, ruleswise, to make sure that everyone is arguing on the same page.

If you have any further comments on the matter, please take it to PM or start a new thread to avoid derailing this one.