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@ Manchu

I completly get what you are saying "What right does a tool have to question its maker?" Fari enough, but for all of the Emprah's vaunted wisdom he sure went about gathering some of his primarchs in a less than stellar way.

I would say that Magnus's case was different than Angron's in that Magnus was specifically forbiden from sorcery after he accepted the Emprah's command and took up the mantle of leading his followers. Angron had no idea there even was and Emprah until he was told to leave his men behind for him

Imagine instead of what happened you have this scenario: The Emprah finds Angron and his men holed up in a mountain awaiting their inevitable doom. He lets Angron know there is more outside the galaxy than this little planet. Angron insists he will die with his men. The instead of being a putz, the Emprah says okay I will transport you and your men to YOUR future ship with YOUR future warriors on it. We will equip you and your men with the best tech ever and then you can come down and beat the ever living piss out of these (what ever his enemies were called) for me, the Emprah.

Now there is no way Angron goes to chaos if that happened. You are correct, in that Angron had no business rebelling anyway, but the Emprah is a fool for using the tactics he did. Angron would have been the most loyal Primarch ever if the Emprah had treated him right.

On a side note, beside Angron, Lorgar is the only Primarch who had a reasonable excuse to turn to chaos. You spend your whole life waiting for your divine being to descend from the heavens. When he does he says there are no divine beings..... now what. But he is still not as justified as Angron

But what would have happened if the emperor condoned this rebellion? For that is what it was, a gladitorial uprising against the authorities (who may themselves have kneeled before the Imperium). Regardless of whether or not his son was invovled, there would then be countless uprisings as tales spread of the Emprah condoneing, and in fact aiding, an uprising against the rightful authorities.

Emperors Faithful (aptly named), Bodichi: You both make good points that provoke deeper understanding.

It seems to me that in the days of the Great Crusade every system not yet in compliance was in rebellion. (This is the moral of the Tales of Heresy piece Wolf at the Door.) The ultimate "rightful authority" is therefore the Emperor in all cases. If the unnamed planet of Angron's youth was ruled by a people that bowed to the Emperor upon his arrival, as Emperors Faithful suggests, then they would indeed be the "rightful authorities" of that planet and Angron's revolt would be also against the Emperor--and, as Emperors Faithful points out, that would be intolerable. This is, however, just speculation. The fate of Angron's "homeworld" is unknown. But the general point stands: the Emperor would not allow any Primarch, the most powerful individuals in the galaxy other than him, to rebel against legitimate authority, namely his own.

Now, Bodichi notes that the Emperor was a fool to stir up in Angron's heart the sparks of rebellion by treating him so harshly. That may be true and may be the root cause for Angron's eventual downfall. But it could also be that the Emperor was teaching Angron a lesson: namely, "you will not disobey me; you will not be an agent of rebellion; you will be an obedient agent of my vision for humanity rather than your own ideas." This is the same lesson that Magnus and Lorgar failed to learn. (We could have a good discussion, I think, about whether the Emperor intended them to fail or at least foresaw their failure. I, for one, do not think that the Emperor seriously rejected his own divinity or was actually committed to rooting out all religion. Decimating all other forms of religion is, after all, a very effective precursor to installing a universal one that could unite an otherwise disparate and impossibly far-flung empire.)

You could argue that the Emperor was simply a bad teacher to them but I would content that the Primarchs, either because of or in spite of the fact that they were all superhuman not only in strength but also intelligence, could have reasoned that the Emperor knew best and so they should keep in line. This same superhuman faculty, however, also resulted in pride. The pride of Milton's Satan, to be specific: "I know better than my maker what my purpose is and so should rule myself." Lorgar is the clearest example of this and also the most ironic (so thank you for bringing him up). In any case, while the traitor's each have a tragic story leading to their damnation (except Horus, who is strangely unsympathetic) none have or had a right to rebel.

Mabye if Angron had not been so flagrant in his scorning of the Emprahs aid, the Emperor may have done otherwise. Perhaps if Angron had not been too proud to BEG for the lives of his men, then the Emprah may have listened. But definitely a good point there. I know however, that it would take more than a refusal to join the Emprah to make him kill his son (refutal of the fate of the two unkown).

Don't know about Lorgar, but for the others:
1) Mortairion: After failing to kill baddie himself (Emprah saved him), in return he is FORCED to swear allegiance to the Emprah. Doesn't like it.
2) Konrad: Repeatedly had wracked visions of Emprah killing him, and deeply truamatised.
3) Alphurius never really knew the Emprah on a personal level, closer ties to Horus.

So...Why FULGRIM? WHYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?

Emperors Faithful wrote:So...Why FULGRIM? WHYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?

That is a very good question when you ponder the details of the story and look for "justification" (IMO there are no justifications for the Heresy), but ultimately (and more obviously than any other Primarch) Fulgrim succumbed to pride.

As to the lost legions: It is clear that the Emperor would not kill his sons for simply refusing to join them. We can learn that from Angron's story. I would propose that the other two betrayed him, foreshadowing the much grander and more terrible Horus Heresy.

Look, GW left those two guys to be open to interperation. I don't think the Emprah killed them, even if they went renegade. (He couldn't even bring himself to kill Konrad when he went psycopathic) They were simply lost to the wear and tear of history.

Deja Vu: It HAS been over 10 millenium, okay?

Just to put this out there. I never whined about the votes. Not that I remember anyways.

I am content with knowing how awesome Sanguinius is, don't care if others do or not. /shrug

Emperors Faithful wrote:Look, GW left those two guys to be open to interperation. I don't think the Emprah killed them, even if they went renegade. (He couldn't even bring himself to kill Konrad when he went psycopathic) They were simply lost to the wear and tear of history.

Deja Vu: It HAS been over 10 millenium, okay?

It's simply my proposal for the purposes of discussing the world of 40k as if it is a serious subject meriting discussion, as I think it is. I know very well that it is a fact that GW's motives are preeminently to make money and that leaving gaps is a marketing tool. What I don't understand is why the discussion I just mentioned must always be reduced to that crude fact. Further, I don't understand why people who think it is necessary to do so would bother posting in the fluff section of this forum. Finally, it is canonically untrue that the nameless Primarchs were simply "lost to the wear and tear of history" in light of the short exchange between Malcador and Dorn in the novel Mechanicum. Whatever way you interpret Malacador's words, one thing is clear: the lost legions were lost before the heresies and not over the course of ten millennia.

@Dreadwinter: Sanguinius is awesome, as we agreed earlier in this thread. Pity he died. It'd be over for Chaos, as you mentioned, if he and Russ returned together.

1) Hadn't read Horus Heresy Novels so didn't know about conversation, but I thought you REALLY meant that the two had been "offed" by the Emprah, I see now it was just a proposal.

2) Both are awesome. (even Russ in a I-like-dogs kind of way).

You really should think about reading them. They're very entertaining IMO.

I voted for Leman Russ, because the Space Wolves are my favorite of the official First Founding Legions.

I also like [Stricken from Imperial Archives].

[Stricken from Imperial Archives] are one of the coolest things about the 40k background. I hope they never change.

Russ did relent in the end and split his chapter into the ill fated Wolf brothers so he did in fact listen to guillaman. sure he did not follow the codex but he did split his legion, this does not sound like he told guillaman where to go.

Its the retconned HH that has people thinking Russ was conned into killing magnus by Horus, the old Fluff has that order from the EMP himself. also the Custodes were sent with Russ so he was sanctioned by the EMP, if he was not then the custodes would not have been there as Horus had no control over the custodes.

Also funny how when this poll was done a few years ago Russ was no where near as popular as he is now. Hmm could be the new codex. Brings in a lot of new blood to the fang

beef wrote:Also funny how when this poll was done a few years ago Russ was no where near as popular as he is now. Hmm could be the new codex. Brings in a lot of new blood to the fang

Who was in the lead back then?

Also, I'd say the HH "retconning" may have something to do with this.

Or it could be that all the Space Wolves players just started playing again after 5th edition came out because 4th was bad for us (or so I hear, I quit back when 3rd edition came out, started playing again with 5th)

Demogerg wrote:Or it could be that all the Space Wolves players just started playing again after 5th edition came out because 4th was bad for us (or so I hear, I quit back when 3rd edition came out, started playing again with 5th)

Maybe, I didn't think there was too much of a difference.

But there is this perspective. I will quote the relevant portion:

As the Space Wolves had been intended for 3rd edition, they were heavily geared towards close combat while Warhammer 40K 4th edition was about moving, shooting and hiding behind large clumps of cover. Space Wolves, who specialised in aggressive charges were suddenly unable to leap out of their transports and bound into close combat. Meanwhile the rapid codex revisions of the Space Marines and other armies, left the Space Wolves overpriced and underpowered.

In any case, I'd still like to know approximately when the poll you (beef) are talking about happened and who won.

@Manchu and Emperors Faithful

Great retorts gentlmen excuse my late reply I was painting a house (ugh!)

Any way I see how if (and that is a big mysterious if) the planet that Angron was on was somehow someway sympathetic to be taken over to the rule of the Emprah. Then and only then do I see Angron's reason for heresy being debunked and him merely another wayward primarch. However, if the planet that Angron was on was not partial to the Emprah, that what better way to not only engender trust in to your new found son (Angron) than to give him a legion of warriors raised with his specific gene seed, to wrest the planet from the hands of his tormentors. Had this happens the out come is vastly different.

I see Angron more akin to a dog (no offence meant) in the ways of loyalty and obedience. He is not a rocket scientist, nor a schemer, nor an articulate primarch. Had the Emprah earned his trust instead of spurning him, I feel that it may well have been the world eaters going to destroy Magnus or left behind on terra to defend the Emprah.

As for Lorgar, youare both correct. Not only did the Emprah tell him that his religion was wrong but that all religon was wrong. And he tells this to a man looking for and answer as to which one is correct and the answer is none. What a huge mental let down. Lorgar had to be spirtually distraught after that answer. Infact I would feel that though Angron could not articulate his feelings he would feel that same as Lorgar. One valuing martial skill and honor, another praise and worhsip, and both being told that those are all meaningless compared to the glory of the Emprah!

@ Manchu

Your are also correct in pointing out the strangeness of Horus not being sympathetic in the least??? How Strange.

Manchu wrote:I don't understand why people like Sanguinis so much. But then again I don't understand why people like that movie (or those books) "Twilight," either. My guess is that these things are connected.

Yeah same.

Sanguinius Sucks Compared to Fulgrim.

Manchu wrote: Angron was property of the Emperor, like all other primarchs--even Magnus. None of them have a "right" to be pissed at him. He created them for a specific purpose. If they failed to live up to it or betrayed it, they should feel lucky that he didn't kill them outright before the heresy.

Slavery? I thought most people thought that slavery is bad, mmmkay.

RustyKnight wrote:Slavery? I thought most people thought that slavery is bad, mmmkay.

40k much?

RustyKnight wrote:

Manchu wrote: Angron was property of the Emperor, like all other primarchs--even Magnus. None of them have a "right" to be pissed at him. He created them for a specific purpose. If they failed to live up to it or betrayed it, they should feel lucky that he didn't kill them outright before the heresy.

Slavery? I thought most people thought that slavery is bad, mmmkay.

Its a pretty good idea that if you think something is sick or sadistic or just bad, somebody in 40k is probably into it.

Dreadwinter wrote:Its a pretty good idea that if you think something is sick or sadistic or just bad, somebody in 40k is probably into it.

You can pretty much bet that it has its own divisio within the Administratum.

Manchu wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:Its a pretty good idea that if you think something is sick or sadistic or just bad, somebody in 40k is probably into it.

You can pretty much bet that it has its own divisio within the Administratum.

Ooooh, pot shot?

Dreadwinter wrote:Ooooh, pot shot?

Nope, absolute agreement.

I think this thread has a lot more going for it than the Chaos vs Nids thread.

I voted Russ. Dude the fething tank is named after him. THE fething TANK.

nuff said

There's a Chaos v. Nids thread? Going on without me? Lol.

Manchu wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:Ooooh, pot shot?

Nope, absolute agreement.

Sure sure

@Dreadwinter:

Also, @Bodichi: A great example of what I'm talking about is the story called Scions of the Storm in "Tales of Heresy."

Is Lorgar the primarch of the Word Bearers?

Horus just because he was that one different one lol. I don't even play chaos =P

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is Lorgar the primarch of the Word Bearers?

Yes.