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Given the weapon range of ST ships, wouldn't they really count as various types of ordnance from a BFG point of view?
This would give them the option of flying inside the shields of Imperial ships, but considering the size discrepancy I don't see them winning. Being hit by a cannon shell the size of your own ship would probably hurt alot.

People keep quoting weapon ranges on this thread, and I've no idea where they are pulling them from.

Can anyone provide details?

'Cos somehow I really don't think that ST phasers have less range than an Iowa Battleship.

Andrew

Got to keep this thread alive... it is so full of fail that the meter wrapped around and went to WIN. Let's look at this in a macro sense...

Offensive Capabilities

Benchmark: Energy consumption of the Earth in 2008: 5 x10^20J

Gunbuster: Buster Machine 3 - Compressed Jupiter into a singularity: Yield: N/A
Diebuster: Earth as relavatistic munition: 3.2x10^42J
Diebuster: Diebuster - Ultra Inazuma Kick (Planet sized construct delivering a kick at 0.25C) - 8.3 x 10^38J

Star Wars: Death Star Megalaser: - Approximately 10^32J
Star Wars: Turbolaser (main battery): 3.6 x 10^24J
Star Wars: Turbolaser (secondary battery): 8.37 x 10^20J

Star Trek: Type VI Photon Torpedo: 50 Isotons -> 2.72 x 10^17J
Star Trek: Quantum Torpedo: 70 Isotons -> 3.807 x10^17J

Warhammer40k: Lance Battery: - 2.25 x10^21J
Warhammer40k: Blackstone Fortress / Engine of Vaul - Estimated power in the magnitude of 10^30J

Macross: Zentradei Nupetiet-Vergnitzs Class Command Battleship - Concentrated frontal barrage totals 8.36 x10^19J
Macross: Quiltra-Quelamitz Class Medium-Scale Gunboat - Spinal Weapon: 8.36 x10^19J

Babylon5: Earthforce Omega Class Destroyer: Main battery, full power: 1.17x10^16
Babylon5: Earthforce Victory Class Destroyer: Main battery, full power: 4.07x10^21
Babylon5: Shadow Cruiser / Vorlon Cruiser: Main battery: 3.49x10^21++
Babylon5: Vorlon Planet Killer - Estimated power in the magnitude of 10^30J.

Relative Fleet Strength

Gunbuster: Aliens - Bioships Cruiser Class and below: Millions.

Star Wars: Imperial Navy: Systems Fleets consist of 1400 or so ships and support craft. Total fleet numbers over a million, though the number of capital ships probably in the low to mid 100 000's.

Star Trek: United Federation of Planets: Based on registry numbers: 76000 - though a more realistic estimate is in the neighbourhood of 30000 due to decomissioned numbers. To narrow this even more, the UFP probably has closer to 6000 or so combat worthy vessels, with the majority of the registry numbers belonging to classess between the runabout size to science vessel / patrol craft classes.

Warhammer 40k: Imperial Navy: Millions of capital ships.

Macross: Zentraedi Fleet: It is known that around 1000 or so fleets supported by automated factory satelites the size of the Bodole Zer Main Fleet (4.3 million capital ships) exists.

Babylon5: Earthforce: Probably no more than a few hundred combat ready capital ships. This is evidenced by: Battle of the Line and Sherridan's assault on Earth.

Analysis (or winners of the Improbable Power Level Sweepstakes)

1. Son Goku from Dragonball. His power level is over 9000...

The runner ups are:

2. Gunbuster alien fleet: Millions of creatures. If evolved to the Variable Gravity Well class (so named because it had been living in, and subsequently incorporated a black hole and used this to deflect all energy attacks), it is proof against ANY weapons its opponents can bring to bear. Damage output is not rated, though probably in the GT (gigaton) range, these creatures are noted to nest WITHIN stars. Variable gravity well creature shown at the end of Diebuster is the extent of their evolutionary process, and sustained a 8.3 x 10^38J physical attack with minimal damage. All classess are noted to maneuver at fighter speeds and are FTL capable.
3. Imperium of Man: Millions of ships with weapons in the GT range. Many planet destroying type super weapons exist. Impressive void shielding protects against weapons of similar output. High speed galactic travel navigating the Warp.
4. Zentraedi Fleet: Cloned troops, weapons in the GT/high MT range. Lacks shielding but have impressive numbers of fighter craft, adept at ground and space combat. Incrediblly fast galatic travel using Fold system.

Star Trek is (completely) outgunned, and (definitely) outmanned.

Star Trek has 2 chances:

1. The astronomicon doesn't reach into their universe, negating the Imperial's navigational abilities and Warp travel.
2. The Imperium Fleet is forced to conform to the "laws of science" in the Star Trek universe, thus causing any unexplainable technologies to cease functioning, along with the resultant collapse of the Imperial Fleet due to logistical failure.

Keep it alive or the mods will lock the thread in the dungeon of Terra.

Like I've said (as have countless others) Star Trek simply does not have the ruthlessness able to compare to the Imperium.

Star Trek: Perhaps we can settle this peacefully.
Imperium: ...
Star Trek: Well, let's just invite you over for tea and scones.
Imperium: ...
Star Trek: While we're at it, how about we-
Imperium: BOOM! UR PLANETS R BELONG TO US!

Emperors Faithful wrote:Like I've said (as have countless others) Star Trek simply does not have the ruthlessness able to compare to the Imperium.

Star Trek: Perhaps we can settle this peacefully.
Imperium: ...
Star Trek: Well, let's just invite you over for tea and scones.
Imperium: ...
Star Trek: While we're at it, how about we-
Imperium: BOOM! UR PLANETS R BELONG TO US!

TNG Yea, their cojones were removed in Academy or something. Thats what happens when you put families and counselors on board instead of more redshirts.
TOS no way, that should was patterned on expansionist America. Kirk would kick your keister in a heartbeat to get a workout in.
Remember at the time of TOS, the Federation had already fought the Romulan Empire t at least a stand still and defeat the Klingons in an earlier war. You didn't with GreatBrittania/Manifest Destiny, er the Federation then.

IvanTih wrote:The 40k would win the 40k as truck and star trek as a dog in front of the truck.Borg is nothing when you look at nids,crons,Imperium of Man and da orks.Star Trek ethics suck.Don't bring those 8742 or Borg supermen myths becuase 40k would easly crush them the Imperium can also easly destroy planet by phase 2 cylonic torpedo with melta charge.Q is nothing when comperaed to Emperor or Chaos Gods(heresy).

Has no-one actually read this post. It`s trolling, nothing ore and nothing less

Terje-Tubby wrote:

IvanTih wrote:The 40k would win the 40k as truck and star trek as a dog in front of the truck.Borg is nothing when you look at nids,crons,Imperium of Man and da orks.Star Trek ethics suck.Don't bring those 8742 or Borg supermen myths becuase 40k would easly crush them the Imperium can also easly destroy planet by phase 2 cylonic torpedo with melta charge.Q is nothing when comperaed to Emperor or Chaos Gods(heresy).

Has no-one actually read this post. It`s trolling, nothing ore and nothing less

Hey fresh new user get away from my thread.

IvanTih wrote:

Terje-Tubby wrote:

IvanTih wrote:The 40k would win the 40k as truck and star trek as a dog in front of the truck.Borg is nothing when you look at nids,crons,Imperium of Man and da orks.Star Trek ethics suck.Don't bring those 8742 or Borg supermen myths becuase 40k would easly crush them the Imperium can also easly destroy planet by phase 2 cylonic torpedo with melta charge.Q is nothing when comperaed to Emperor or Chaos Gods(heresy).

Has no-one actually read this post. It`s trolling, nothing ore and nothing less

Hey fresh new user get away from my thread.

This image has beenc orrupted for use by Frazzled the Fifth Chaos god.

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Terje-Tubby wrote:

IvanTih wrote:The 40k would win the 40k as truck and star trek as a dog in front of the truck.Borg is nothing when you look at nids,crons,Imperium of Man and da orks.Star Trek ethics suck.Don't bring those 8742 or Borg supermen myths becuase 40k would easly crush them the Imperium can also easly destroy planet by phase 2 cylonic torpedo with melta charge.Q is nothing when comperaed to Emperor or Chaos Gods(heresy).

Has no-one actually read this post. It`s trolling, nothing ore and nothing less

Hey fresh new user get away from my thread.

This image has beenc orrupted for use by Frazzled the Fifth Chaos god.

Actually Ivan, I have noticed that you have put forward an opinion (that 40K would win over the Star Trek universe) but are unwilling to listen to other views or opinions.

I am willing to listen to other opinions.ST ships could flee from 40k ships with warp drive(except the Necrons).Star fleet ships have much weaker weapons than the Imperium,but are more maneuverable and as I said before flee.
I hate those ethics in star trek.Yesterday I watched http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Nothing_Human_%28episode%29 and I couldn't believe that they would delete a hologram only because the real person killed people and the hologram could help them later.Idiots they are.They can't kill some alien to save their own crew member.

It is a different morale standpoint. The universe of Star Trek is meant to be more optimistic (High Science Fiction) whereas 40K is of course Grimdark to the max (Low Science Fiction)

Just because the Imperium (who I assume you are using as your comparison point) is more ruthless does not neccasarily mean they will be the victors. Imperial Technology is incredibly backward compared to Star Trek so you don't know how weapons and shields would react to one another.

Also, from a viewpoint of Ship design, it takes an age for any ship in the Imperium to do anything (functioning much like a galleon) whereas a Starfleet ship is pretty much an instant response.

If you dislike the ethics of Star Trek then there is no reason to watch it. I'm sure it will happily toddle by without your support However, there are simply too many variables to say conclusively which universe would 'beat' the other. You can certainly say which you prefer (and you have made that painfully clear) however a sweeping statement such as "LOLZ! FORTEEKAY PWNZOREZ STUR TRIK" isn't really contributing to anything ^^

Dark Lord Seanron wrote:It is a different morale standpoint. The universe of Star Trek is meant to be more optimistic (High Science Fiction) whereas 40K is of course Grimdark to the max (Low Science Fiction)

Just because the Imperium (who I assume you are using as your comparison point) is more ruthless does not neccasarily mean they will be the victors. Imperial Technology is incredibly backward compared to Star Trek so you don't know how weapons and shields would react to one another.

Also, from a viewpoint of Ship design, it takes an age for any ship in the Imperium to do anything (functioning much like a galleon) whereas a Starfleet ship is pretty much an instant response.

If you dislike the ethics of Star Trek then there is no reason to watch it. I'm sure it will happily toddle by without your support However, there are simply too many variables to say conclusively which universe would 'beat' the other. You can certainly say which you prefer (and you have made that painfully clear) however a sweeping statement such as "LOLZ! FORTEEKAY PWNZOREZ STUR TRIK" isn't really contributing to anything ^^

I dislike Imperium's cruelty and those too ethics of the star trek.Why there isn't rocker in ST,only the Tom Paris listens to rock'n roll, that Harry Kim is boring with his clarinet,would show him the meaing of sweep picking and shreding.I'm fan of ST and 40k,but 40k is more interesting to me than ST.
That's why they have fighters and bombers.Their weapons strength,shield and armor compensate.

So, you're saying 40K would destroy Star Trek because Harry Kim plays the Clarinet? I see...

Dark Lord Seanron wrote:So, you're saying 40K would destroy Star Trek because Harry Kim plays the Clarinet? I see...

No,I didn't said that.
You have changed your avatar what's the new picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm just watching Voyager episode "Thirthy days"

Not bothering to read through the other pages I put in this:

In space, 40K MIGHT have a chance against Star Trek. At sublight speeds I can't help but imagine how much more maneuverable Trek ships would be, but it wouldn't take mcuh to kill one. Much like a fight between a bear and a wolf. The question is if the 40K ships could even target something as small as a Star Trek ship.

On the ground, Star Trek has the massive advantage. The answer is simply the phaser. With the ability to disintegrate huge quantities of ANYTHING with the standard sidearm of any nation, even the mighty Space Marines would simply vanish in a hail of phaser shots.

In the end, this discussion is silly. I declare shenanigans.

Mattlov wrote:Not bothering to read through the other pages I put in this:

In space, 40K MIGHT have a chance against Star Trek. At sublight speeds I can't help but imagine how much more maneuverable Trek ships would be, but it wouldn't take mcuh to kill one. Much like a fight between a bear and a wolf. The question is if the 40K ships could even target something as small as a Star Trek ship.

On the ground, Star Trek has the massive advantage. The answer is simply the phaser. With the ability to disintegrate huge quantities of ANYTHING with the standard sidearm of any nation, even the mighty Space Marines would simply vanish in a hail of phaser shots.

In the end, this discussion is silly. I declare shenanigans.

No,they wouldn't because phaser doesn't have enough power to tear through ceramite.Plasma weapons are much more powerful than phasers.Terminators can survive inside plasma reactor.People on many forums have said that 40k would own ST.Are you kidding the 40k ships can hit far smaller thing than a ST ship.

Ivan: While I do not disagree with the premise that the Imperium of Man would tear Starfleet a new one in a standup fight... I am compelled to correct some of your more blatant misconceptions.

Also, thumbs down for reusing the Picard dignity picture.

IvanTih wrote:No,they wouldn't because phaser doesn't have enough power to tear through ceramite.

Ceramite, by its nomenclature, a ceramic type composite material. Ceramics by nature have heat resistant properties and some impact resistance. There is nothing to suggest that ceramite is proof against phaser attacks, considering that as a directed nadion particle beam, a phaser offers higher KE delivery when compared with the bolter, a standard ballistic type weapons of the Imperium which is known to be able to defeat Ceramite body armor.

Rationale: KE = MV^2.
Assuming that a bolt round travels at 100x the speed of sound (a generous estimate) and the particles emitted by a phaser are travelling at 0.5C (a conservative estimate). To have a similar kinetic impact, to a 20mm bolt round - estimated at 0.3kg (a sizable overestimate) - a phaser would only need to emit a particle with a mass of 0.038mg - that is roughly 1/10 of the mass of a grain of sand. Phasers would likely be accelerating particles closer to 0.075-0.85C meaning that even smaller particles could concievably defeat power armour. Phaser cannons firing larger streams would definitely be able to defeat a tank, especially since the common tanks of the Imperium can be defeated by bolt weapons on their rear (and top) armour.

IvanTih wrote:Plasma weapons are much more powerful than phasers.

Plasma is a superheated gas. Plasma weapons fire this superheated gas enclosed within an electromagnetic field in order to limit dispersion and maintain cohesion. By its very nature, plasma weapons do damage through thermal energy transfer and loose potency the further away the target is, as the plasma bolts would loose energy due to energy transfer with the environment. I'm not sure where you're getting this misconception that heat transfer based weapons are much more powerful than particle beams as a weapon class. There is high damage potential, but IMO, plasma weapons are definitely less efficient than particle beam technology.

These sort of generalizations don't add any credibility to your arguement.

I don't care who you or and what you want to argue, trekkies would shat their pants if they saw a legion of Chaos Space Marines coming at them.

Trekkies have tech.

Chaos have (better) tech+daemons and evil gods on their side.

Why are we comparing?

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Why are we comparing?

My dad can beat up your dad.

I'm not sure where this idea that 40k tech is "better" or "more advanced" than Star Trek. Last time I checked:

Subspace communications > Astropaths
Supercomputers and artificial intelligence > Machine spirits
Matter / Antimatter reactors > Fusion reactors

Star Trek scientists and engineers understand and develop technology. Techpriests sing Kumbaya to their equipment.

Everything 40k has is less advanced, but still gives them the advantage due to:

Huge manpower
Comparitively primitive (but effective) technology, but applied on a massive scale utilizing and maximizing BRUTE FORCE - An example might be how launching a simultaneous barrage of 50 000 SCUD missiles (accounting for a 75% dud rate) simultaneously would probably sink any carrier battlegroup, despite the disparity in technology. A Trebuchet would wreck a modern Tank due to brute force.

Starfleet vs the Imperium is like having a squad of US marines armed with standard kit fighting a regiment of Napoleonic Era soldiers with artillery and cavlary support - on open ground.

keezus wrote:

Ivan: While I do not disagree with the premise that the Imperium of Man would tear Starfleet a new one in a standup fight... I am compelled to correct some of your more blatant misconceptions.

Also, thumbs down for reusing the Picard dignity picture.

IvanTih wrote:No,they wouldn't because phaser doesn't have enough power to tear through ceramite.

Ceramite, by its nomenclature, a ceramic type composite material. Ceramics by nature have heat resistant properties and some impact resistance. There is nothing to suggest that ceramite is proof against phaser attacks, considering that as a directed nadion particle beam, a phaser offers higher KE delivery when compared with the bolter, a standard ballistic type weapons of the Imperium which is known to be able to defeat Ceramite body armor.

Rationale: KE = MV^2.
Assuming that a bolt round travels at 100x the speed of sound (a generous estimate) and the particles emitted by a phaser are travelling at 0.5C (a conservative estimate). To have a similar kinetic impact, to a 20mm bolt round - estimated at 0.3kg (a sizable overestimate) - a phaser would only need to emit a particle with a mass of 0.038mg - that is roughly 1/10 of the mass of a grain of sand. Phasers would likely be accelerating particles closer to 0.075-0.85C meaning that even smaller particles could concievably defeat power armour. Phaser cannons firing larger streams would definitely be able to defeat a tank, especially since the common tanks of the Imperium can be defeated by bolt weapons on their rear (and top) armour.

IvanTih wrote:Plasma weapons are much more powerful than phasers.

Plasma is a superheated gas. Plasma weapons fire this superheated gas enclosed within an electromagnetic field in order to limit dispersion and maintain cohesion. By its very nature, plasma weapons do damage through thermal energy transfer and loose potency the further away the target is, as the plasma bolts would loose energy due to energy transfer with the environment. I'm not sure where you're getting this misconception that heat transfer based weapons are much more powerful than particle beams as a weapon class. There is high damage potential, but IMO, plasma weapons are definitely less efficient than particle beam technology.

These sort of generalizations don't add any credibility to your arguement.

Thumps up for correcting my mistakes.The dark age of technology weapons are surely some crazy things,remember when rouge Mechanicus used dark age relics and caused supernovas.STC system uses nanotech which constructs the things that are in the memory.Iron Men who have safe plasma weapons,durability,cheap production etc...
Tkon Empire were masters of solar engineering so they could cause supernova,could they.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have disliked AdMech for being stagnant and they develop new things but only after centuries or millennium.They high ranks do actual science,but they are greedy so that caused Imperium's loss of tech.In 1st edition the reason for non-innovation was to prevent the dangerous things from arising.

Not bothering to read through the other pages I put in this:

In space, 40K MIGHT have a chance against Star Trek. At sublight speeds I can't help but imagine how much more maneuverable Trek ships would be, but it wouldn't take mcuh to kill one. Much like a fight between a bear and a wolf. The question is if the 40K ships could even target something as small as a Star Trek ship.

Of course they're more maneuverable, as Star Trek ships are vastly smaller. Despite that, though, I doubt IN ships would have a problem with them. They do alright against Eldar, after all. And given that they also fire on fighter wings and such, which're even smaller than Starfleet ships, then they should probably still be pretty effective against Starfleet ships. God knows that a Nova Cannon would be absolutely devastating against a fleet of Starfleet ships, especially with the way they like to bunch up heading into a fight. A single Nova Cannon blast could probably lay waste to an entire fleet.

On the ground, Star Trek has the massive advantage. The answer is simply the phaser. With the ability to disintegrate huge quantities of ANYTHING with the standard sidearm of any nation, even the mighty Space Marines would simply vanish in a hail of phaser shots.

Serious? Yeah, I'm gonna call shenanigans on this. Have you seen the phaser in action? Check out the Siege of AR-558. You had a horde of Jem'Hadar running over open ground and they didn't vaporize them all. They shot them one-at-a-time. Honestly, it was pathetic. Switch out those Federation troopers with equal number of men armed with AK-47's and the guys with AK's would've cleaned up by comparison.

I don't see how anyone can possibly say that the Federation can win on the ground. The Federation is utterly pathetic on the ground. So much so that they've lost battles with the Klingons, who start sword fights with them. SWORD FIGHTS! The phaser, as shown numerous times, is not this weapon of ultimate destruction you make it out to be. Hell, even more pathetically, we've seen countlesss incidents in which people actually dodged a phaser beam fired at them, that's how slow it is.

Could it probably one-shot Space Marines? Sure. Though that's assuming the Space Marines don't successfully dodge out of the way of the phaser blasts (If Riker can dodge a phaser blast, then a Space Marine with his superhuman reflexes certainly can). But even if one believed they could avoid that phaser fire, the Imperium doesn't have to risk it, because they've got endless legions of Imperial Guardsmen. They die just as easily to phaser fire, but the difference, there? There's a lot more of them, and they can still kill a Federation soldier just as dead with their return fire (They'd have an easier time of it then when fighting other Imperial Guardsmen, as Federation soldiers don't wear armor of any kind). And their lasguns would be far more effective than those phasers. Yes, phasers fire individually powerful shots, but they're slow and one-shot deals. Lasguns are automatic weapons, and can put out a higher volume of fire, which'll result in more dead Federation soldiers than dead Guardsmen. Which would be especially terrible for the Federation, as they'd be horribly outnumbered to begin with.

And unlike the Federation, the Imperium has an actual functioning ground military force. The Federation has phaser rifles and...? That's it. Phaser rifles. Oh, and dune buggies. The Imperium, on the other hand, has heavy weaponry, artillery, air support, etc. The Federation would be absolutely slaughtered on the ground, no question. And that's before mentioning titans and their void shielding, which should keep them safe from that phaser fire, while unleashing horrific levels of firepower in return. How anybody could say that the Federation of all things could beat the Imperium in ground combat is simply mind-boggling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I'm not sure where this idea that 40k tech is "better" or "more advanced" than Star Trek. Last time I checked:

In several areas it is. It certainly is when it comes to firepower and shielding, anyway, as the weapons aboard their ships are vastly more powerful than Federation ships, and their void shielding has to be commensurately powerful, which makes them far better then Federation shields. They're certainly more advanced with bionics, as that's a somewhat common thing within the Imperium, and medical technology appears superior in many ways. Like some Imperial Guard Colonel, who was put back into the fight after having his spine crushed (Worf, who's back was broken, was only fixed due to a wildly dangerous procedure, and only because he was a Klingon). And the Imperium can regrow eyes, which the Federation can't. Then there's personal force field technology, which the Federation doesn't have (Nevermind Displacer Fields. Let's see the Federation make a miniature warp drive that moves a person), much less use to the degree that the Imperium uses it. The Imperium has superior FTL, in that they can cross the entire galaxy within weeks to months, while it'd take the Federation 70 years to accomplish the same feat with their fastest ships. Then we have the Imperium's expertise in body armor, which the Federation is also sorely lacking in. And vortex technology. I didn't see the Federation creating grenades which can open mini-blackholes.

The Federation is superior in some ways (replicators, transporters, sensors), but overall? The only real advantage they have is understanding how their technology works, which most of the Imperium doesn't. But the Imperium knows how to use and maintain their technology, which is enough.

Subspace communications > Astropaths

Depends how it works shortrange. I'm thinking that astropathic messages are much like warp travel shortrange. Safe and reliable. And given how relatively small the Federation is, one could probably send an astropathic message from one end of the Federation to the other and have it reach its destination almost instantaneously.

But long-range? Astropaths are hands-down vastly superior, given that they can manage galactic communications. The Ultramarines could send an astropathic message to the Space Wolves and expect it to reach them in a reasonable amount of time. But subspace? Voyager ended up in the Delta Quadrant and couldn't contact the Federation in the Alpha Quadrant. They only managed to contact Starfleet when they found a subspace array built by some alien race that straddled the two quadrants. So overall, I'd say astropaths are superior to subspace.

Supercomputers and artificial intelligence > Machine spirits

Federation computers are probably better, but artificial intelligence? The Federation has none, with the sole exception of Data, who they can't replicate. So in this case, Machine Spirts > Artificial Intelligence, as the Federation has zip in the way of artificial intelligence. They certainly don't have anything like the Land Raider Machine Spirit, which can keep that vehicle fighting long after its crew is dead. You certainly won't ever find the Enterprise or any other Starfleet ship doing anything of the sort.

You know whats cooler than Star Trek?

...not a d@mn thing!

keezus wrote:Ceramite, by its nomenclature, a ceramic type composite material. Ceramics by nature have heat resistant properties and some impact resistance. There is nothing to suggest that ceramite is proof against phaser attacks, considering that as a directed nadion particle beam, a phaser offers higher KE delivery when compared with the bolter, a standard ballistic type weapons of the Imperium which is known to be able to defeat Ceramite body armor.

Rationale: KE = MV^2.
Assuming that a bolt round travels at 100x the speed of sound (a generous estimate) and the particles emitted by a phaser are travelling at 0.5C (a conservative estimate). To have a similar kinetic impact, to a 20mm bolt round - estimated at 0.3kg (a sizable overestimate) - a phaser would only need to emit a particle with a mass of 0.038mg - that is roughly 1/10 of the mass of a grain of sand. Phasers would likely be accelerating particles closer to 0.075-0.85C meaning that even smaller particles could concievably defeat power armour. Phaser cannons firing larger streams would definitely be able to defeat a tank, especially since the common tanks of the Imperium can be defeated by bolt weapons on their rear (and top) armour.

You probably don't want to go down this road. You see, if your awesome phasers are in fact firing particles at very high speeds you have to account for the recoil, which in your example would certainly break the arm of the redshirt firing the weapon (probably kill him). Phasers fire magical lazor beams, just like lasguns do. There's no way you can explain how either works. Furthermore, Bolters fire explosive rounds. They don't need to be particularly fast (100x the speed of sound is just silly, normal guns fire at about 2x), because they do their damage with the explosive tip.
Sure, phasers are more powerful than the imperial lasguns, they may be equal to plasma guns. But a a few powerful weapons won't matter much when fighting an entire army.

glory wrote:
You probably don't want to go down this road. You see, if your awesome phasers are in fact firing particles at very high speeds you have to account for the recoil, which in your example would certainly break the arm of the redshirt firing the weapon (probably kill him). Phasers fire magical lazor beams, just like lasguns do. There's no way you can explain how either works. Furthermore, Bolters fire explosive rounds. They don't need to be particularly fast (100x the speed of sound is just silly, normal guns fire at about 2x), because they do their damage with the explosive tip.
Sure, phasers are more powerful than the imperial lasguns, they may be equal to plasma guns. But a a few powerful weapons won't matter much when fighting an entire army.

For the 1000000th time. Phasers are NOT Lasers. Phasers CANNOT be compared to Las-guns which fire blasts of LASER energy.

If you dont know anything about the Star Trek universe, you cannot possibly add anything to this discussion.

I love the way that everyone here is quoting 'dramatic licence' from the various TV series as proof of the inability of the Federation to sucessfully defend against the Imperium.

"There are no ground troops in Star Trek!" Of course there aren't. It's a series about individual heros. When else would you get to see the commander of a space station in HtH combat against the Dominions' troops. Since a Reliant class (renamed to Miranda class for TNG) can successfully 'disable' 90 people every 5 seconds, and the imperium has no defence against it, ground combat is irrelevant for the purposes of this argument, sorry, discussion.

"Phasors are slow!" See above, not much of a program if Riker got shot in the opening 5 seconds (On second thoughts....)

"Ship guns have crap range!" It's a TV series, it would look really good firing phasors into nothing. Thats why Federation ships fly in tight formation and wait until the last minute to fire, it's so it looks good on TV.

So I believe it comes down to the following. Who would win in space?
Last time I looked, Phasors had a range out to about 1 light second (300,000kms) which if I am to believe from earlier in the thread is comparable to BFG weapon ranges. BFG Batteries are next to useless against Fed ships, as they can simply do a subspace hop past the munition. Ditto ordinance of all types. Which only leave lances and the problem of comparable power levels.

While individually a federation ship is a poor match for an IG capital ship, can that it actually locate, and hit a Federation one? Initially I would say yes, but then I think that the Federation would adapt it's tactics and use subspace jumps to avoid being hit. Basically the Imperial ships would then die a death of a thousand cuts.

Someone made the comparison earlier that a Trebuche (Sp?) would damage a tank, while that may be true, I'd like to see it hit one as it sped across a field!

Andrew

@Glory: It sure is a good thing that you cleared things up. So let me understand this:

1. Bolter rounds do not have to travel fast since bolter rounds lethality comes from the explosive charge.
2. Bolter rounds are HE and AP. Since the HE is not terribly effective against armour, the round is understood to have breached the armor before the HE portion does its work.
3. At 0.3kg round (an overestimation) with speeds of 2x speed of sound, a bolt round's AP delivery is: 139kJ - and per your post, this is understood to be able to penetrate power armor.

To achieve similar penetrating power, a particle beam firing projectiles of 0.01mg would need to impart a speed of 3728270 m/s or approximately 0.012C (where C is the speed of light)

Although velocity has been referred to, it is not the total velocity of a closed system that remains constant. If it was, then firing a gun would cause the gun to recoil at the same velocity as the bullet! The gun does recoil, but at a much lower velocity than the bullet. Newton's third law tells us Fgun on bullet = - Fbullet on gun, and assuming a constant force for simplicity, Newton's second law allows us to change this to

mbulletΔvbulletΔt=-mgunΔvgunΔt.

Thus if the gun has 100 times more mass than the bullet, it will recoil at a velocity that is 100 times smaller and in the opposite direction, represented by the opposite sign.
The quantity mv is therefore apparently a useful measure of motion, and we give it a name, momentum, and a symbol, p. (As far as I know, the letter “p” was just chosen at random, since “m” was already being used for mass.) The situations discussed so far have been one-dimensional, but in three-dimensional situations it is treated as a vector.

Let's assume a hand phaser is 3 pounds (1.36kg). At 0.01mg, the projectile is 3x10^8 x smaller than the gun. Thus the recoil is proportionally smaller at 0.00046J. Since a Joule is the equivalent of 1kg moving at 1m/s, the recoil is: 0.00033m/s or 0.3mm/s. Unless red shirted ensigns are of weaker constitution than modern man, -that- is a negligible amount of recoil, while delivering the same penetrative properties as the AP portion of the bolt round.

While one might argue that it is pure (and continuous) penetrative power and lacks the explosive aspect of the bolt round, I'm sure any beam able to defeat power armour would probably defeat the flesh behind it as well.

After reading space marine codex I came across conversion beamer,the weapon which converts matter into energy,but you've got to be completely motionless to fire a successful shot.The longer range will make more powerful attack.No armor can resist,having a bulky suit of power armor will get you more damage from the weapon.Those things are incredibly rare pre-heresy artifacts.

AndrewC wrote:I love the way that everyone here is quoting 'dramatic licence' from the various TV series as proof of the inability of the Federation to sucessfully defend against the Imperium.

Dramatic license or not, it's what it is. If it's shown that way on the shows, that's how it works. Or do you want us to discuss the mythical Federation in your head which isn't actually depicted onscreen?

"There are no ground troops in Star Trek!" Of course there aren't. It's a series about individual heros. When else would you get to see the commander of a space station in HtH combat against the Dominions' troops. Since a Reliant class (renamed to Miranda class for TNG) can successfully 'disable' 90 people every 5 seconds, and the imperium has no defence against it, ground combat is irrelevant for the purposes of this argument, sorry, discussion.

If no worthwhile ground troops are depicted, then the Federation has none, period. And yep, they've been depicted in at least two episodes of DS9, and they pretty lame in both cases. Once again, we're discussing what we're actually presented with, and not your mythical version of the same.

As for the Miranda, no idea what you're talking about, so I can't say if the Imperium has "no defence" against it or not.

"Phasors are slow!" See above, not much of a program if Riker got shot in the opening 5 seconds (On second thoughts....)

And once again, all we can discuss is what we've seen. And from what we've seen, phasers are hardly the most impressive weapons in the universe. If I want to burn through a wall or take out something really big and ugly in one shot I'll use a phaser. But if I were going to war? I'd take a lasgun, easy. Or hell, give me an M-16. Because from what we've seen on the various tv shows, the only weapon less useful than a phaser in a wartime situation is a muzzle loader.

"Ship guns have crap range!" It's a TV series, it would look really good firing phasors into nothing. Thats why Federation ships fly in tight formation and wait until the last minute to fire, it's so it looks good on TV.

Once again... eh, you know the rest.

Last time I looked, Phasors had a range out to about 1 light second (300,000kms) which if I am to believe from earlier in the thread is comparable to BFG weapon ranges. BFG Batteries are next to useless against Fed ships, as they can simply do a subspace hop past the munition. Ditto ordinance of all types.

If this were the case, then why don't they "subspace hop" past torpedoes fired at them? Because they can't. It's not a viable tactic. So yeah, BFG munitions can hit them. Especially since some of them, like Nova Cannons, are fired at damn near the speed of light. That's an ordnance blast fired at nearly Warp 1 speed.

Which only leave lances and the problem of comparable power levels. While individually a federation ship is a poor match for an IG capital ship, can that it actually locate, and hit a Federation one? Initially I would say yes, but then I think that the Federation would adapt it's tactics and use subspace jumps to avoid being hit. Basically the Imperial ships would then die a death of a thousand cuts.

Sssuuurrreee. You know what I love? How people have to outright make stuff up in these discussions to give the Federation any hope. You're bemused by people using stuff from the actual shows, what we've actually seen, to support our arguments, but you think your arguments, which are based off of your fantasy version of the Federation which exists only in your head, to be a more legitimate argument? Right. From what we've seen, we have no evidence that the Federation using "subspace hops" to avoid Imperial munitions fire is anything near a viable tactic. We also know that Imperial Navy ships can take down craft even smaller than Starfleet ships, like Fury Interceptors and Starhawk Bombers (Starhawk Bombers are 1/10th the size of the Enterprise-E, and Fury Interceptors, as fighter craft, are even smaller).

Moreover, you're presuming that Starfleet ships can even harm an Imperial Navy ship, much less kill them through the "death of a thousand cuts". Void shielding is incredibly powerful, and you need to direct enough firepower at them to overload them and bring them down. Then you need to repeat the process against the second void shield. And the third. And the fourth. Once you do that, you then need to direct enough firepower to destroy the ship before the tech-priests onboard bring those void shields back up. Starfleet ships simply don't have the firepower for that.

Here's a funny quote about Void Shields I read elsewhere, from Dark Apostle.

Stabbing beams of energy flashed from the mountainside as the lascannons of the Havoc squads positioned there targeted the Imperator. The powerful blasts looked like little more than pinpricks of light as they strobed towards the Titan. Scores of Predator tanks, Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts and daemon engines added their fire to that of the Havocs as they directed their heavy weapons fire towards the towering behemoth. Missiles, lascannon beams, heavy ordnance shells and streaming plasma speared towards the Titan. Its void shields flashed as they absorbed the incoming firepower, leaving the deadly machine unscathed, and it returned fire with dozens of battle cannons situated in the leg bastions.
- pgs. 204-205

It was later stated by one of the Word Bearers that "there was just not enough firepower to take down the Imperator's shields, let alone damage the Titan".

That's a massive amount of fire directed at that Titan, and they couldn't bring down the shields, much less scratch the hull, and that's on a titan. How much more powerful are the void shields on an Imperial Navy ship?

And to top it off, the Imperial Navy has a massive numbers advantage. According to Ronald Moore, the showrunners on DS9 assumed that the Federation had a fleet of 30,000 ships. The Imperium, however? It's been stated that each Space Marine Chapter has 2-3 Battle Barges. So that's around 2,500 Battle Barges. Assuming they all have eight Strike Cruisers, as well, as the Ultramarines do, and that's another 8,000 ships, for a total of 10,500 ships, and that's before taking into account the escorts the Space Marines have at their disposal, which can easily triple that number.

So on Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers, alone, the Space Marines, a military fighting force consisting of 1 million men, already has a fleet a third of the size of the entirety of Starfleet. How much larger, then, is the Imperial Navy? Especially seeing as how Strike Cruisers have been described as "rare" in comparison to Imperial Navy ships? The Imperial Navy likely includes ships numbering anywhere from the hundreds of thousands to the millions. So in each and every single engagement, Starfleet would be massively outnumbered. They'd be facing horrific levels of firepower, and see their ships strafed by endless legions of Fury Interceptors and Starhawk Bombers, the latter of which have enough firepower on them to take down a Battleship in 40k.

Here's an indication of the size of the ship those Starhawk Bombers can take down.



And once again, they've got the sheer advantage in speed. According to Codex: Imperial Guard, 2nd edition, your standard Imperial Navy transport (not even their fastest warship, just their transports), can cover 1,000 light years in 1-4 days. It takes Voyager a year to cover that same distance. The Federation is nearly 1,000 light years across, so think about it. Imperial Navy ships strike at the western end of the Federation, Starfleet marshalls a response. In the time it takes them to arrive, the Imperial Navy could've crossed the entirety of their territory in no less than 4 days and hit them on their eastern front. If the Imperial Navy so chose, they wouldn't even have to see Starfleet. They could devastate half the Federation in days, without running across a single Starfleet vessel, much less any fleets, and there's absolutely nothing that Starfleet would be able to do about it, because they can't catch up to Imperial Navy ships, much less beat them to the punch. In the end, Starfleet would be forced to marshal its forces around its core worlds, and even then, most of them would be days, weeks, or even months away by the time that the Imperium launched its final strike on the Federations founding worlds.

Someone made the comparison earlier that a Trebuche (Sp?) would damage a tank, while that may be true, I'd like to see it hit one as it sped across a field!

Do trebuchets have servitor assisted targeting arrays? Do they have logic engines calculating firing formulas? Do their munitions have massive blast radii? Do they have munitions that are fired at nearly the speed of light, and which travel over a hundred thousand kilometres nearly instantaneously? If they don't, then it's not a valid comparison.

So yes, based on what we've seen on screen, as well as what we've seen in the 40k rulebooks and novels, the Imperium takes this easy. And yes, basing it off of what we've seen on screen is a legitimate argument, and is in fact the only legitimate argument in these kinds of discussions. Going by what we've actually been presented with is the only way to make an actual determination, because if we're not discussing what we've seen on screen, read in books, etc, then we're not actually discussing these universes. We're discussing our idealized fanfic versions of these universes. In other words, we're discussing something that exists entirely in your head, and nowhere else. And if that's the case, then what's the point of discussing it at all?