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Frazzled wrote:Find a cop. Flash a pipe at him. Report back on what happens.
I found a cop. I flashed my pipe at him. We're now in a committed relationship.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Mistress of minis wrote:Panicking people dont attack in coordinated melee tactics- they run and hide.
What coordinated melee? The only coordination evident was the common desire to hit Israelis with pipes, and even that wasn't displayed by all the activists. Even if you want to consider that as coordination, it does not indicated either premeditation, or a lack of panic. Panicking people are highly open to suggestion, and can often be turned towards an otherwise undesired end. The reality of panic is very different from panic in a war game, and very often features individuals who will fight, even in a coordinated fashion, rather than take to flight.
Regardless, this thread has become little more than a litany of equivocal statements; thanks primarily to Frazzled and Orlanth.
Frazzled wrote:No. It’s a military blockade to keep enemy forces from obtaining weapons to kill Israeli civilians with. vessels that don't heave to are historically blown out of the water. the israelis were stupidly trying to not antagonize the situation. Wrong move.
Incorrect. There is far more historical precedence for the avoidance of sinking shipping while enforcing a blockade. The incidences of 'blockade' in which sinking was the goal are very difficult to distinguish from ordinary combat at sea, which leaves us in danger of claiming that all naval combats is necessarily a blockade.
Additionally, I fail to see how boarding the vessels was the 'wrong move'. Surely the negative press for sinking the ship would have been far worse than what is currently being directed their way for killing a few of its passengers or crew.
Frazzled wrote:
No. Its ethical to enforce the blockade (ask the British). Its ethical to kill your enemy. Its ethical to kill the guys trying to kill you.
Boarding a ship is enforcing the blockade, so you haven't countered the initial point. Furthermore, Turkey is not the enemy of Israel. I'll also assume that your first response to such a point would be "Terrorists are the enemies of Israel." and preemptively contend that no one aboard the flotilla has been shown to be a terrorist.
Frazzled wrote:
***No proof that occurred. If it were me I’d have sunk the ship. The riot is prima facae proof they have weapons hidden on board.
No it isn't. The proof that weapons were hidden on board is made manifest by the discovery of slingshots and IEDs aboard the vessel. It is quite the stretch to consider pipes as hidden weapons when the place they are 'hidden' is a ship. By that standard of 'hidden weapons' all ships have them aboard. Not pipes, specifically, but objects of similar utility.
Frazzled wrote:
Ships trying to run a blockade are historically sunk. Time honored British, US, German, etc etc tradition.
Again, this is false. You need look no further than the Cuban Missile Crisis to see that the issue of historical blockade enforcement is far more complicated than you seem to be indicating.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/11 01:28:37
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Orlanth wrote:The soldier inteviewed gave no-one any doubt that in his eyes the opponents were active combatants not civilian miscreants, also a large measure of contempt can also be detected from the interview.
Some of the comments made by the soldiers lead to worrying questions regarding the Israeli military, but I'm also willing to allow for emotion and the possibility that they are simply the result of poor translation; as I doubt the statements were originally made in English.
Orlanth wrote:
Dehumanising ones opponent is a common technique, but it is supposed to be applied only to enemy armed combatants and their policitcal leaders, it is very unhealthy to apply this technique when refering to opposed civilians, so as to prevent such trajedies as we have seen.
I'm not sure that any dehumanization is going on here. There is, perhaps, a disregard for specific human lives, but that is not dehumanization; eg. calling one's opponent an animal.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Some of the comments made by the soldiers lead to worrying questions regarding the Israeli military
I dunno, they're soldiers. They tend to be aggressive, violent people, especially guys like these that do these kinds of operations.
As you alluded to, they were landing on a ship, expecting minimal violence, and ended up getting severely beaten on. It turned out that none of them died, but I have a feeling there were moments where they didn't think they'd make it. They were being shot at. That tends to make you very angry.
It's especially infuriating when you know your intention wasn't to do violence. If you go in, thinking about how you're going to avoid hurting anybody, and then get the crap kicked out of you, it causes a real backlash. Everything about this operation gives me the impression that the commandos expected minimal violence.
There have been past boarding operations where the Israelis seized huge amounts of weapons, but were not opposed with any violence at all. One assumes they anticipated as much here.
As I pointed out in one of the other threads there are serious concerns in Israel over the diminishing capability of their armed forces. Occupation won’t just brutalise the occupied, it’ll brutalise the occupier and that can impact discipline and decision making quite poorly.
I think the actionsof the soldiers once on the boat were alright, but the decision to fast rope onto the boat in the first place was remarkably stupid. It is one of a growing number of poor IDF decisions in the last decade. Both the Lebanon and Gaza operations were very poorly executed.
Israel would not be the first country to find their military capability severely diminished by a protracted occupation.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Phryxis wrote:
I dunno, they're soldiers. They tend to be aggressive, violent people, especially guys like these that do these kinds of operations.
Its not so much the hostility in the statements that bother me, but what they said, and the fact that they were allowed to say it. For example, the denotation of the activists as 'mercenaries' leads one to wonder who hired them, and how the Israelis know they were hired. Not that the activists actually were mercenaries, the soldier may have simply made an off the cuff remark which was may have been subsequently mistranslated, but one is still lead to wonder.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Israel would not be the first country to find their military capability severely diminished by a protracted occupation.
Yeah, but they've been doing this for a very long time...
Honestly, I think the issue that's hurting them is the same one that's hurting all dominant military powers... It's the internet.
It didn't used to be that you could see (nearly) realtime video of everything going on everywhere, all the time. Now every mistake is all over the internet within 24 hours. That makes it harder to operate, and it also makes people more sensitive in general.
In the first Gulf War, the American military caught the Iraqi army as it fled Kuwait, and slaughtered them unmercifully. The "Highway of Death" incident. There was some backlash even back then, but I think that today, such a action would be a major media event.
Crazy as it is to think, that was nearly 20 years ago. A long time, and a lot has changed.
But that was the first "televised" war, and the fallout is still going on.
So, I don't necessarily think Israel's military is significantly weaker than it has been, I think they're just crippled by the public relations pressures that the world has begun to exert on any nation that uses force.
I find the "whoa, you mean people get hurt in war?" attitude to be childish and ridiculous, but it's also a reality that has to be dealt with.
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For example, the denotation of the activists as 'mercenaries' leads one to wonder who hired them
But yeah, neither side of this debate has a strong track record in terms of honesty in reporting and released information.
For me what sticks out is the parts reported in Palestinian media. They've got quotes from people. If it's fabricated, it's a pretty elaborate fabrication.
The mention of the cash on the "mercenaries" is odd. It seems like if you did get paid, you'd send the cash home.
Mistress of minis wrote:Panicking people dont attack in coordinated melee tactics- they run and hide.
What coordinated melee? The only coordination evident was the common desire to hit Israelis with pipes, and even that wasn't displayed by all the activists. Even if you want to consider that as coordination, it does not indicated either premeditation, or a lack of panic. Panicking people are highly open to suggestion, and can often be turned towards an otherwise undesired end. The reality of panic is very different from panic in a war game, and very often features individuals who will fight, even in a coordinated fashion, rather than take to flight.
It may not have appeared coordinated- the video available is rather limited. But it looked like a rather coordinated defense to me, and Im looking at that with several years of corrections experience and having had to face down riots before, not just a perspective form some video game. The way they peeled off into little groups and focused their attack on the IDF guys is what looks like organization. #1 Drops in, they all attack, as #2 start to drop 4 or 5 of them keep beating on #1 and try to throw him overboard. Once hes over they get back to looking for the next guy to lay thier pipes on. That many people trying to lay a beat down on just a few guys at a time requires some coordination- otherwise in the dark all those swinging pipes would get in eachothers way and couldnt swing- they had good spacing. Its entirely possible they were just randomly doing it, just like its possible the IDF commandos were dropping onto the deck to have a ham sandwhich with the protestors.
Thats just my professional opinion mind you, I realize in internet debates over a dozen years of corrections and security experience probably doesnt seem like much to some, but its closer to an 'expert' opinion on something than alot of the repetitive chest thumping thats been in this thread.
Phryxis wrote:
For me what sticks out is the parts reported in Palestinian media. They've got quotes from people. If it's fabricated, it's a pretty elaborate fabrication.
The mention of the cash on the "mercenaries" is odd. It seems like if you did get paid, you'd send the cash home.
Yeah, that sort of stuck out, but if they did indeed have cash on them it seems probable that they were paid on arrival; meaning they probably didn't have time to send the money elsewhere.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Phryxis wrote:So, I don't necessarily think Israel's military is significantly weaker than it has been, I think they're just crippled by the public relations pressures that the world has begun to exert on any nation that uses force.
I find the "whoa, you mean people get hurt in war?" attitude to be childish and ridiculous, but it's also a reality that has to be dealt with.
That’s not quite what I’m getting at. The world at large almost entirely ignores what Israel does in Palestine, the media at large gives no hint of the scope of Palestinian deaths at Israeli hands, and the Western world at large doesn’t care. Part of my issue with people focussing on the boat operation in particular is that it really is a drop in the bucket of what’s happening in Palestine. The only thing that’s different about this is that Palestine managed to get this event on the news, running the blockade was a media savvy idea.
The point I’m getting at is that a protracted occupation leaves you with a lesser army. Running patrols through neighbourhoods that hate you and might be trying to kill you gets old fast, and once you’ve been doing it for a few years and can’t see an end in sight it starts to change your outlook on service. Discipline falls, skills diminish and organisational effectiveness drops. The IDF that made such a mess of the Lebanon and Gaza operations a few years ago is not the IDF of the Six Day War.
My point is that Israel needs to find a stable, peaceful solution for the sake of their own defence force.
Apparently the IDF thinks they were actual mercenaries...
That article is pretty screwy. It’s claiming 50 men were paid $10,000 each, a total of half a million dollars, to fight the IDF, in the event that the IDF fast roped onto the boat. The Turkish government, or whoever, wouldn’t have known they were going to fastrope, and just paid the guys half a million all up in the hopes they would be. They wouldn’t have known which boat would be raided, so presumably they either got really lucky, or paid half a million to put guys on every boat in the flotilla, that’d ten million in cash in the hopes that one boat was boarded.
Despite all this money getting splashed out, it never occurred to anyone to do it with discrete bank transfers. Instead it was done with cash in envelopes, which the crew then took on the boat with them…
It’s a very, very dubious story. I mean, I have no problem believing that members of the flotilla were associated or even direct members of militant organisations, I’d be surprised if none were, that’s the makeup of political activist groups. The idea that the flotilla was undertaken in the hopes of executing an ambush if the IDF fastroped onto one of the boats is pretty crazy, though.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
I think fast roping onto the decks of certain boat types is the standard rapid boarding method- depending on how high a ship stick out of the water, seaborne boarding from a RIB isnt a very viable option when its under way. And using a helo deployment means they can have a crew with a fueled up chopper or two within 100 miles- and they can be there in about 30 minutes. That gives th helos involved decent loiter time in case they need to extract wounded or rescue anyone in the water. Its not like they need to have a helicopter in the air all the time for it- alot of people dont seem to realize just how small that area can be.
So, if the theoretical 'bad guys' were trying to bait a boarding action like this- and were aware of the IDF SOP & doctrines, its possible. When it comes to politics like this, 500,000$ is small potatoes for the black eye it caused Israel. So, its possible, but even if its true, at this point Israels credibility is damaged, and theyd need some seriously incontrovertable proof for that. Otherwise it just sounds like the local TFG with his CIA/NSA conspiracy theories.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
The world at large almost entirely ignores what Israel does in Palestine, the media at large gives no hint of the scope of Palestinian deaths at Israeli hands, and the Western world at large doesn’t care.
Why should I care what happens to people that were filmed dancing in the streets and having a celebration because some terrorists slammed planes into the World Trade Center buildings and killed 3,000 plus of my countrymen?
There was a lot of news footage of streets full of happy Palistinians thinking it was a great and wonderful event.
The world at large almost entirely ignores what Israel does in Palestine, the media at large gives no hint of the scope of Palestinian deaths at Israeli hands, and the Western world at large doesn’t care.
Why should I care what happens to people that were filmed dancing in the streets and having a celebration because some terrorists slammed planes into the World Trade Center buildings and killed 3,000 plus of my countrymen?
There was a lot of news footage of streets full of happy Palistinians thinking it was a great and wonderful event.
You should probably stop posting in this thread until you can learn some modicum of restraint concerning your posts. They're almost universally unrelated to the topic at hand and it's pretty clear you're just grasping at straws to strike out at these groups in whatever verbal way you can.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Relapse wrote:
Why should I care what happens to people that were filmed dancing in the streets and having a celebration because some terrorists slammed planes into the World Trade Center buildings and killed 3,000 plus of my countrymen?
There was a lot of news footage of streets full of happy Palistinians thinking it was a great and wonderful event.
Well, for one, you seem to care about Israel. Given that, it stands to reason that you would take an interest with respect to their conduct regarding the Palestinians, as, no matter what you think of it, it is directly connected to security.
Of course, it may be that you don't care about Israel either. In which case I'm left to wonder why you would even post in this thread.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Relapse wrote:
Why should I care what happens to people that were filmed dancing in the streets and having a celebration because some terrorists slammed planes into the World Trade Center buildings and killed 3,000 plus of my countrymen?
There was a lot of news footage of streets full of happy Palistinians thinking it was a great and wonderful event.
Well, for one, you seem to care about Israel. Given that, it stands to reason that you would take an interest with respect to their conduct regarding the Palestinians, as, no matter what you think of it, it is directly connected to security.
Of course, it may be that you don't care about Israel either. In which case I'm left to wonder why you would even post in this thread.
Given as how I didn't see any Israelis dancing in the streets when the Towers fell, but I did see footage of Palistinians having a party over the event, I find myself caring a lot more for Israel and it's security than I do about people that would like nothing better than see us dead.
As far as I'm concerned, the flotilla was bringing aid and comfort to the enemy and testing Israel's resolve to blockade.
Relapse wrote:
Why should I care what happens to people that were filmed dancing in the streets and having a celebration because some terrorists slammed planes into the World Trade Center buildings and killed 3,000 plus of my countrymen?
There was a lot of news footage of streets full of happy Palistinians thinking it was a great and wonderful event.
Well, for one, you seem to care about Israel. Given that, it stands to reason that you would take an interest with respect to their conduct regarding the Palestinians, as, no matter what you think of it, it is directly connected to security.
Of course, it may be that you don't care about Israel either. In which case I'm left to wonder why you would even post in this thread.
Given as how I didn't see any Israelis dancing in the streets when the Towers fell, but I did see footage of Palistinians having a party over the event, I find myself caring a lot more for Israel and it's security than I do about people that would like nothing better than see us dead.
As far as I'm concerned, the flotilla was bringing aid and comfort to the enemy and testing Israel's resolve to blockade.
Hence why no one really respects your posts concerning international politics and why they always seem to result in either ignores or the devolvement of the threads they are posted in.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Relapse wrote:
Given as how I didn't see any Israelis dancing in the streets when the Towers fell, but I did see footage of Palistinians having a party over the event, I find myself caring a lot more for Israel and it's security than I do about people that would like nothing better than see us dead.
Israeli security is inextricably linked to the conditions in Gaza, that was my original point. Personally, I don't particularly care about either side, I'm merely interested in the situation in the sense that its a rapidly evolving case study in prolonged occupation, paramilitary mobilization, and conflict resolution.
Oh, and for the effect it has on US security vis a vis the Iranian nuclear program.
Relapse wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, the flotilla was bringing aid and comfort to the enemy and testing Israel's resolve to blockade.
I imagine you also take issue with the fact that USAID supplies aid to Gaza.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Relapse wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, the flotilla was bringing aid and comfort to the enemy and testing Israel's resolve to blockade.
I imagine you also take issue with the fact that USAID supplies aid to Gaza.
I take issue with the fact the flotilla seems to be a propaganda ploy and a set up for other ships to endager Israel's security by supplying terrorists with what they need to attack Israel, should Israel have let this flotilla through the blockade.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/12 04:47:55
The only thing that’s different about this is that Palestine managed to get this event on the news, running the blockade was a media savvy idea.
I don't see this as any different than anything that's come before. The only potential difference is that Turkey is involved. Otherwise it's the same as always. A big outrage in the media, then forgotten.
On one hand, I agree, the West doesn't seem to ultimately care, because nothing real is ever done. On the other hand, that's how Europe responds to pretty much everything. They talk a lot, and get upset, and then do nothing. So I'm not sure if it's accurate to say they don't care, in that they care as much as they care about anything, which is not very much.
They wouldn’t have known which boat would be raided, so presumably they either got really lucky, or paid half a million to put guys on every boat in the flotilla, that’d ten million in cash in the hopes that one boat was boarded.
Well, they boarded them all... And as I understand it, the one where the incident ocurred was the largest ship, so the most likely to be boarded, and the one most likely to be fast roped onto. I also believe that the fast rope entry is pretty standard with Israeli operations like this.
In fact, I'm not sure there's really any other option with a boat of a sufficient size. It's just not possible to get up the side from a small boat, and a bigger boat would be too dangerous to get close with. I saw video of Scandanavians (possibly Swedes?) taking over a hijacked cargo ship (from Somalis), and they fast roped in. I'm not sure I've ever seen it done any other way.
That said, it doesn't have to be a fast rope specific defense. It's not like you go to the Mercenary Bazaar in Turkey, and then browse to the Anti-Fast-Rope Section. They just got a bunch of dudes together and had a plan. In that respect, the title of "Mercenary" seems a bit overblown. It sounds like the guys that died, even if they were paid, were just randoms who all got together and had a plan. That doesn't make you a real "mercenary" so much as a hired goon. Mercenaries, by today's standards, are all former military, usually former elite military, and well armed.
Relapse wrote:
Why should I care what happens to people that were filmed dancing in the streets and having a celebration because some terrorists slammed planes into the World Trade Center buildings and killed 3,000 plus of my countrymen?
There was a lot of news footage of streets full of happy Palistinians thinking it was a great and wonderful event.
Well, for one, you seem to care about Israel. Given that, it stands to reason that you would take an interest with respect to their conduct regarding the Palestinians, as, no matter what you think of it, it is directly connected to security.
Of course, it may be that you don't care about Israel either. In which case I'm left to wonder why you would even post in this thread.
Given as how I didn't see any Israelis dancing in the streets when the Towers fell, but I did see footage of Palistinians having a party over the event, I find myself caring a lot more for Israel and it's security than I do about people that would like nothing better than see us dead.
As far as I'm concerned, the flotilla was bringing aid and comfort to the enemy and testing Israel's resolve to blockade.
Hence why no one really respects your posts concerning international politics and why they always seem to result in either ignores or the devolvement of the threads they are posted in.
His opinions have no more or less value just because you dont agree with it.
His point on the mindset of the Palestinians is a valid one- as its a totally foreign mindset from what we're used to. Unless you've been to the middle east you probably dont understand that. Some western nations may feel sorry for the Palestinians- but theyve had alot of time to work things out peacefully and co-exist, but they havent. Theyre sticking with traditional values of the region and then, its the same sort of feud that has gone on there for generations. This is why the only succesful wars in the middle east- have always been rather brutal affairs where entire tribes were totally wiped out- otherwise the survivors will keep fighting for generations to come even when theres nothing obvious to gain from it.
Relapse wrote:
I take issue with the fact the flotilla seems to be a propaganda ploy and a set up for other ships to endager Israel's security by supplying terrorists with what they need to attack Israel, should Israel have let this flotilla through the blockade.
The issue is considerably more complicated than that; primarily in the sense that running a blockade doesn't necessarily have anything to do with getting through; as you pointed out. But I don't understand the hostility towards propaganda, though that may simply be the result of my understanding of the term.
I see propaganda as communication with the intent to influence a body of people that may, or may not, be rigidly defined. By that standard nearly any attempt at public persuasion is propagandistic. I will grant that the term if most often used pejoratively. Though that doesn't get us much further than your initial comment indicating your dislike for Palestinians.
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Phryxis wrote:I also believe that the fast rope entry is pretty standard with Israeli operations like this.
It also appears that the Israelis initially attempted to board from their rigid inflatables only to have their grappling hooks dislodged by the activists.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/12 05:37:29
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
This makes it seem more protracted and disjointed than I pictured it being. There are wounded people, which means there must be commandos on the boat to wound them, but the people seem generally free to wander around and do what they will.
It's extremely clear there's no panic here at all.
What's not clear is the timing. It seems like injured are coming down over a fairly long period of time?
On some level I feel sorta stupid for assuming the battle was fast and furious. Real fights tend to be much more gradual, protracted and dull than the movies would suggest. I had pictured the whole thing taking maybe 10-15 minutes. This suggests it was more like two hours.
I'm picturing that the commandos are elsewhere, surrounding their wounded similarly to how these people are surrounding their own. I'm guessing the "alphas" of the activists are making periodic attacks on the commandos and getting shot?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/12 05:55:00
Mistress of minis wrote:
His point on the mindset of the Palestinians is a valid one- as its a totally foreign mindset from what we're used to. Unless you've been to the middle east you probably dont understand that.
Interestingly, I've been to the Middle East quite a few times, I even lived in Istanbul for 3 months between semesters in college, and I think the whole alien quality of the region is massively overblown.
Mistress of minis wrote:
Some western nations may feel sorry for the Palestinians- but theyve had alot of time to work things out peacefully and co-exist, but they havent. Theyre sticking with traditional values of the region and then, its the same sort of feud that has gone on there for generations.
That statement could be applied to Israel as well.
Mistress of minis wrote:
This is why the only succesful wars in the middle east- have always been rather brutal affairs where entire tribes were totally wiped out- otherwise the survivors will keep fighting for generations to come even when theres nothing obvious to gain from it.
That's not correct. Note the tribal variance across Iraq, and how that was held in check despite the continued existence of antagonistic forces; at least until the dominant power was eliminated, but that's the way of any power vacuum. Egypt is another good example in that Nasser's state was able to effectively leash together a coalition of otherwise opposing forces by painting the Egyptian struggle as a single manifestation of a Pan-Arab identity. Something similar happened, more successfully, in Turkey. And then, of course, we have Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Mistress of minis wrote:
His point on the mindset of the Palestinians is a valid one- as its a totally foreign mindset from what we're used to. Unless you've been to the middle east you probably dont understand that.
Interestingly, I've been to the Middle East quite a few times, I even lived in Istanbul for 3 months between semesters in college, and I think the whole alien quality of the region is massively overblown.
Well, Im not talking about just the religion(which does get overblown). But just alot of their basic cultural tenets. Your time in Istanbul does lend better perspective than most- but the larger cities are generally more progressive than the outlying areas- which is generally where your militant types are coming from. City people dont want the stuff they build and work for getting blown up- out of towners dont have that kind of attachment
dogma wrote:
Mistress of minis wrote:
Some western nations may feel sorry for the Palestinians- but theyve had alot of time to work things out peacefully and co-exist, but they havent. Theyre sticking with traditional values of the region and then, its the same sort of feud that has gone on there for generations.
That statement could be applied to Israel as well.
Any peace process has 2 sides, but electing a party that bears the name of the same people that have been blowing up Isrealis- doesnt bode well as a sincere gesture at peace.
dogma wrote:
Mistress of minis wrote:
This is why the only succesful wars in the middle east- have always been rather brutal affairs where entire tribes were totally wiped out- otherwise the survivors will keep fighting for generations to come even when theres nothing obvious to gain from it.
That's not correct. Note the tribal variance across Iraq, and how that was held in check despite the continued existence of antagonistic forces; at least until the dominant power was eliminated, but that's the way of any power vacuum. Egypt is another good example in that Nasser's state was able to effectively leash together a coalition of otherwise opposing forces by painting the Egyptian struggle as a single manifestation of a Pan-Arab identity. Something similar happened, more successfully, in Turkey. And then, of course, we have Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
You dont think its correct- thats ok. It was a general statement which means there will be exceptions like the ones you mentioned(but others that fall well into the stereotype) But when you look at most of the survivng tribes- they arent the ones with a war like heritage- the aggressive tribes either conquered or were defeated. Many of the tribal groups that survive today were more passive in nature and capitulated to being ruled. Im not just talking about recent history here- Im talking about looking at it from a pre-Ottoman perspective. Then, once you start adding in European influences to control the area, thats where many of the current day nations got their boundaries. And those boundaries didnt do the best job at respecting the traditional lands of many tribes. Some accepted the change- others got pissy about it. The crux of it still boils down to this- when you take foreign lands and chop them up into countries on a map without regard for the social forces at work- it makes a mess. Same thing happened with Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia. Same thing is happening with many of the nations that were formed like that. Some cultures adapt to changes better than others and at different rates- and what were seeing with alot of these conflicts today are basically growing pains as these places forge thier national identities- or fight to reclaim what they feel belongs to them(like Pakistan and India). I mean, we could get into all the things that changed the Middle east, how the Mughals, the Crusades, 18th & 19th centruy colonization etc etc. But most people seem to prefer to have a hundred year limit on thier history- makes it easier to remember, and easier to see that things like this havent happened over & over.
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ShumaGorath wrote:
His opinions have no more or less value just because you dont agree with it.
I disagree as that would conceptually place all opinions on a level playing field so far as value goes and I don't accept that.
Because you would then have to accept your opinions arent just more valuable because you think they are. Opinions are a level playing field- having substance to back them up are another matter.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/12 06:33:23
Because you would then have to accept your opinions arent just more valuable because you think they are. Opinions are a level playing field- having substance to back them up are another matter.
Says the woman who in every "conversation" we have had has basically cried semantics and "run away" after establishing a shifting sands argument that alters with every exchange.
His point on the mindset of the Palestinians is a valid one- as its a totally foreign mindset from what we're used to. Unless you've been to the middle east you probably dont understand that.
Well, Im not talking about just the religion(which does get overblown). But just alot of their basic cultural tenets. Your time in Istanbul does lend better perspective than most- but the larger cities are generally more progressive than the outlying areas- which is generally where your militant types are coming from. City people dont want the stuff they build and work for getting blown up- out of towners dont have that kind of attachment
Case in point. You argue a lack of perspective in others (as you did in your first thread opposite me) than when presented with a strong counterpoint you alter your argument to allow it to continue alongside the counterpoint as if you were right all along. Realistically you were arguing cultural tendencies and viewpoints and the fairly ambiguous concept of them being alien to ours. When presented with a counterpoint you alter your argument to become one of poverty vs prosperity and the cultural impact of bias in areas of poor education. So if it's not a totally foreign mindset except in the rural areas, and that mindset is born of poverty, what makes it alien? What makes it uniquely middle eastern? Is it so separate from thai rural protestors or tribal support of maoist rebels in india? If we're talking about palestinians in particular, did you know that Hamas is one of the highest paying career choice in the region? A police officer working for Hamas (The defacto government in the region) is paid several times the regional average. But I guess they don't live in places that they care enough about to go legit. Y'know, since policework is paramount to shooting rockets into israel.
Notably you switch from argumentative fallacy to argumentative fallacy with (virtually) every post, though weasel wording remains consistent throughout.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/12 06:56:48
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
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