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DOn't worry. You can duck "hell's fire" its called plugging your ears.

If an atheist were to get nearly as worked up and insulting with a sign or a protest as one of these cavemen, he would be arrested.

Guitardian wrote:DOn't worry. You can duck "hell's fire" its called plugging your ears.

If an atheist were to get nearly as worked up and insulting with a sign or a protest as one of these cavemen, he would be arrested.

And how do you figure that?

Because where I lived, preachers showed up in the middle of the downtown city center every wednesday night and boomed their booming voices for all to hear, with a police escourt to protect their free speech. The neighborhood wingnut doing the same would get arrested or told to move along or get arrested.

Did an atheist ever try that and get arrested? Because otherwise I don't see any reason why that would be true.

Also, speaking of family guy, IIRC there was an episode where it is discovered that Brian is an Atheist, and the whole town starts saying he is a bad person or whatever. Like, they say that's the worst thing you can be. Do some people really think that is the perception Christians have of Atheists? Maybe some, but if you really think that, you have some kind of insecurity with your belief, but then again, most people would seem to.

Well it is true and I saw someone get moved for playing a drum, aka making noise.. while the preacher guy was bellowing aka making noise. On more than one occasion this type of favoritism occured.

Hello,

Well perhaps after hearing that the veliciraptors were related to chickens he went and decided that chickiens eat feed (cornmeal), so he needed to step up from that and got coconuts. That said I listend to a rather boring piece of crap by a BBC radio reporter who went to the aformentioned crapatorium, and she seemed rather impressed by the chap. Sadly there must not have been any shiney objects or pinwheels around or she might have gotten distracted, and made a better interview of the pinwheel. Should you be interested in hearing her, she is on "Speaking of Faith" on the BBC.

Regards,
Carl

It creeps me out that eloquence is mistaken for intelligence. A lot of people can say nothing and sound good saying it, and be taken seriously no matter if they think the earth is young or flat or riding the back of a space tortoise, they get taken seriously because they approximate the communication style of scientific types, leading the ignorant know-no-betters to an illusion that they are actually making sense.


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and I quote my own dumb ass on that. I have no idea how much bs I have gotten away with saying to drunk people.

Orlanth wrote:If that is the care then don't care. Don't mention it, let it slip by. I have a non interest in football, expressed by a non-interest, got a football thread, I ignore it. Don't care to the point that I don't know who these big players are or where they play or what they are doing.
However you analogy might hold more sense if so many people didn't regularly turn up for a not-football match and kick off.

Yeah, this is what puzzles me about this new movement in atheism. I had a couple of cousins go to the atheism convention in Melbourne or Sydney recently. It was headed by Richard Dawkins and well, how do you talk about atheism for three days?

Because you can't talk about non-belief in something. It'd be like forming a club based on a mutual dislike of sport, saying 'I don't like sport' takes about three seconds, and after that inevitably they're left talking about how bad sport is, and how everyone else should wise up and start disliking sport like they already do.

It's the same for these atheists, they're coming together to complain about religion. It's just as ugly as the weird hostility that some religious folk have towards atheists.


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Mike Noble wrote:Yeah, it would seem to me that a lot of people think of this when they think of Christianity.

I'm a drunk, rock and roller, pothead, evolutionist, abortionist (maybe, I haven't taken part in one but I believe they should be legal), liberal, fornicator, atheist, and rich (again arguably, I don't know what this guy's limit is).

So I'm nine times damned, anyone got that beat?


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Mike Noble wrote:Also, speaking of family guy, IIRC there was an episode where it is discovered that Brian is an Atheist, and the whole town starts saying he is a bad person or whatever. Like, they say that's the worst thing you can be. Do some people really think that is the perception Christians have of Atheists? Maybe some, but if you really think that, you have some kind of insecurity with your belief, but then again, most people would seem to.

There is hostility there, bizarrely.

But a lot of atheists attempt to try and create this idea that they're somehow persecuted like homosexuals, which is crap.

lets see if I can beat your score... demoncrat (can't vote though), drunk, rock (no roll thats so 1950's), former pothead, evolutionist, prosperity preacher, worldy (what is luke warm?)... I think I got you beat if only they added a few more like "free-thinker, discordian, avatar of cegorrach, street people, slacker, nixger lover", and um... "toothed"

Atheists are not persecuted, except in grade school, where I still hold a bitterness for all the kids that knew each other from sunday school or cub scouts, and I was the outsider being told I was a 'satanist' before I even knew what that meant. It's the mindset thrust upon children that I object to. Especially when the thinkers(1) are outnumbered by the brainwashed(the rest) in a place like a playground.

sebster wrote:I'm a drunk, rock and roller, pothead, evolutionist, abortionist (maybe, I haven't taken part in one but I believe they should be legal), liberal, fornicator, atheist, and rich (again arguably, I don't know what this guy's limit is).

So I'm nine times damned, anyone got that beat?

Well, i can add democrat, but i have to subtract rich, so just a tie....

If that placard is true I am in trouble being a once-saved always-saved Christian. In fact with a full read through it looks like 'Scientology' got it right. Sounds like most of us are screwed then.

Orlanth wrote:

The reason we discuss evolution is not any fixation on the subject on the part of the church, but a need to defend against attack.
The dogma that 'evolution disproves God' is still very prevalent, I find I am playing whack-a-mole with it every couple of months or so. The Family Guy clip is evident of that, see how the 'churches' alternative to evolution is depicted : hardline young earthism. Yes the clip has comic licence but the message remains and is all too often the only one seen. Too many God-haters like to imply 'science say this and the church says that' placing evolution apparently in their court and making blanket claims on what others believe based on a small minority.

Only ignorant people say that evolution disproves God, and they say it because of the small but loud group of Christians saying that God disproves evolution. It's wrong to say, but you can understand why ignorant people would. Evolution merely disproves Young Earth Creationism/Intelligent Design.

Orlanth wrote:
Its also interesting that this always comes to the foot of the Christian church, and not the Moslems or Jews who also consider Genesis sacred. It has not escaped my attention that some of those taking an atheistic point of view in supposed 'atheism vs theism' arguments, with the theism being attacked being identifiably Christianity, and some of the 'atheists' revealing themselves as Buddhists on other threads.

If you want to see a different side ask a different question.

That is the whole Young Earth Creationism/ID vs Evolution gak storm has been stirred up by a small but loud group of Christians who believe in the literal truth of the Bible, as calculated by Bishop Usher. Jewish and Muslim people are not interested in this. While they may take the Bible as a sacred book, they do not believe in its literal truth, and they don't make arguments in that direction.

The attack on evolution by YEC/IDs is an attack on all of evidence based science, and an attack on proper education of young people.

People do not broadly oppose belief in religion or Christianity in particular. 70% of the UK population registers itself as Christian. That doesn't mean they have to be YEC/IDs or accept YEC/ID arguments.

Guitardian wrote:lets see if I can beat your score... demoncrat (can't vote though), drunk, rock (no roll thats so 1950's), former pothead, evolutionist, prosperity preacher,

Are you sure you're a prosperity preacher? They're the guys that preach that loving God will bring money into your life. It's actually good that this guy wants to condemn those guys, they're donkey-caves.

worldy (what is luke warm?)...

It means people that aren't hardcore enough in their Christian beliefs.

and um... "toothed"

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alarmingrick wrote:Well, i can add democrat, but i have to subtract rich, so just a tie....

I feel bad about that rich thing, because it's probably a little misleading. I'm not rich by any Western standard, I'm just another middle class schmoe really. It's just that the sign writer doesn't give his own standard is guys standard, and I did one of those tests the other day where you put in your income and it tells you where you come in relation to the rest of the world, and it gave a result in the top few percent*. I just thought it was funny that almost all of us in the developed world, and likely the guy holding the sign, will all be condemned to hell for earning the going rate.





*that's the point of the test, anyone earning a middle class income in a developed country like yours or mine will be among the highest few percent of income earners in the world.

I think I may have 10 qualifications for "damnation"

Drunk- I've definitely been known to toss back a few.
Rock & Roller-Been in a few bands.
Adultery-cheated on my first wife (yeah jerk move).
Pothead-not so much anymore..but at one time.
Catholic-Non practicing,but it's the "Family" religion.
Abortionist-Well..I'm pro-choice.
Fornicator....
Atheist-....
Liberal-..On certain things
Satanist-..I agree with alot of Anton LaVey's views.
Rich...Well..I'm comfortable.

Orlanth wrote:Its also interesting that this always comes to the foot of the Christian church, and not the Moslems or Jews who also consider Genesis sacred.

I would imagine it is because most people in the Western world are raised being at least aware of Christianity, given that our cultures are nominally "Christian" in nature and origin and are thus more aware of Christianity than other religions. Added to which, Christianity is the religion which most people they are likely to actually come across in debates such as this identify as.

I don't know how many Jews or Muslims there are on Dakka, and more specifically how many of them take a literal creationist stance within their religion (or indeed any stance on their religion which could be debated), but I would imagine it is an extreme minority.

Sorry for the whimsical OT anecdote:
At a market a while ago, saw a hellfire and damnation doom merchant gnashing his teeth against all and sundry promising there would be eternal flames awaiting us all if we repent not.
Five yards away was a chap selling disposable lighters 3 for a pound.

I just thought it was a nice juxtaposition.

Bought a novelty T-rex coconut cracker from one of the stalls.

Guitardian wrote:DOn't worry. You can duck "hell's fire" its called plugging your ears.

If an atheist were to get nearly as worked up and insulting with a sign or a protest as one of these cavemen, he would be arrested.

bs. I've seen plenty of atheists "worked up" and they weren't arrested.

Frazzled wrote:

Guitardian wrote:DOn't worry. You can duck "hell's fire" its called plugging your ears.

If an atheist were to get nearly as worked up and insulting with a sign or a protest as one of these cavemen, he would be arrested.

bs. I've seen plenty of atheists "worked up" and they weren't arrested.

On the street corner?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Guitardian wrote:DOn't worry. You can duck "hell's fire" its called plugging your ears.

If an atheist were to get nearly as worked up and insulting with a sign or a protest as one of these cavemen, he would be arrested.

bs. I've seen plenty of atheists "worked up" and they weren't arrested.

On the street corner?

At school back in the day...when dinosaurs roamed the earth and ate coconuts.

Kilkrazy wrote:

That is the whole Young Earth Creationism/ID vs Evolution gak storm has been stirred up by a small but loud group of Christians who believe in the literal truth of the Bible, as calculated by Bishop Usher. Jewish and Muslim people are not interested in this. While they may take the Bible as a sacred book, they do not believe in its literal truth, and they don't make arguments in that direction.

The attack on evolution by YEC/IDs is an attack on all of evidence based science, and an attack on proper education of young people.

People do not broadly oppose belief in religion or Christianity in particular. 70% of the UK population registers itself as Christian. That doesn't mean they have to be YEC/IDs or accept YEC/ID arguments.

This is why we have problems.

Jewish and Muslim people are not interested in this. While they may take the Bible as a sacred book, they do not believe in its literal truth, and they don't make arguments in that direction.

This is not so, there is a lot of pressure in the UK schools system at the moment from creationist Islamists, not Christians. However that is mostly a deliberate counterculture move and a way to highlight 'insufficient' Islamisation of the schools. The Bible belt vocalists in the US are a very sm,all minority, the issues are more political than spiritual as intellectual polarisation breeds separation and congeals the congregation. Anywhere else this wouldn't happen, or would happen in another way.
Jews consider the pentateuch holy to the point that not a letter can be changed, they are just quiet about it.
In any case for non literalism to be considered systemic for them it should be considered systemic for others, as in the Christian denominations.

That is the whole Young Earth Creationism/ID vs Evolution gak storm has been stirred up by a small but loud group of Christians who believe in the literal truth of the Bible, as calculated by Bishop Usher.

Do you understand what you wrote there?

Young Earth Creationism/ID vs Evolution gak storm

Here we come back to the crunch of creation vs evolution, there is no versus because it can be argued and has been argued and by your interpretation the Jews and Moslems argue that one is an explanation of the other. Placing young earth creationism on the same side of intelligent design against evolution is a gross distortion.

The problem is that evolution has been hijacked by atheists whereas evolution is not inherently an atheist doctrine. Darwin was not an atheist but an agnostic. So when creationists see this as another example of 'the increase of knowledge' and an explanation as to how the universe is ordered it can be approached with or without God in accordance to ones paradigm. ID vs Evolution is only a 'shitstorm' if you unilaterally insist on making it one, and it mainly boils down to throwing other creationists in with the young earth creationists in order to ignore their viewpoint that science itself could be seen as the toolbox of God.

The attack on evolution by YEC/IDs

Had you wrote 'the attack on ID/evoution by YECs' you would have been fairer and more consistent with what you assume Jews and Moslems are saying. You follow up with this:

is an attack on all of evidence based science, and an attack on proper education of young people.

.....effectively implying that religion is such. At the very least giving atheism a false position of authority.
we see this one a lot, a dogma that goes something like this atheism is science, therefore science is incompatible with religion, therefore religion is incompatible with education. It falls apart from stage one, because atheism is religion.

Orlanth wrote:Who isn't on that list somewhere?

Yeah, that protest sign omits every genre/group of people with the exception of chrisitians. Seriously, being a christian must be dull....enjoy that dull and meager existence that ramps up to no reward after death. Is it just me or do these signs also look like the craftsmanship of a KKK banner.....and for that matter...seemingly the KKK and killing people out of ignorant racism is mysteriously missing from this sign...

The most humorous part of this protest is the fact that Rich People are targeted....as if being poor white trash automatically buys you a ticket to heaven. I guess sacrificing for an education, wanting to have something beyond a 3rd grade reading level, and being successful in life is a sin?

Maybe its that whole IQ thing and the ability to rationalize creationism vs. evolutionism in an intelligent way.

Element206 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Who isn't on that list somewhere?

Yeah, that protest sign omits every genre/group of people with the exception of chrisitians. Seriously, being a christian must be dull....enjoy that dull and meager existence that ramps up to no reward after death. Is it just me or do these signs also look like the craftsmanship of a KKK banner.....and for that matter...seemingly the KKK and killing people out of ignorant racism is mysteriously missing from this sign...

Several denominations of Christianity ARE on that banner

Element206 wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Who isn't on that list somewhere?

Yeah, that protest sign omits every genre/group of people with the exception of chrisitians.

Actually it didn't unless you belioeve 7th day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Catholics (look out, its RoboPope!) aren't christian.

corpsesarefun wrote:Several denominations of Christianity ARE on that banner

Judging by the look of the bystanders though, Id say were dealing with Baptist....which disqualify any other denomination of Christianity.

Element206 wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Several denominations of Christianity ARE on that banner

Judging by the look of the bystanders though, Id say were dealing with Baptist....which disqualify any other denomination of Christianity.

Fail. I know several Baptists and was raised as one and we never thought that.

FITZZ wrote: I think I may have 10 qualifications for "damnation"

Drunk- I've definitely been known to toss back a few.
Rock & Roller-Been in a few bands.
Adultery-cheated on my first wife (yeah jerk move).
Pothead-not so much anymore..but at one time.
Catholic-Non practicing,but it's the "Family" religion.
Abortionist-Well..I'm pro-choice.
Fornicator....
Atheist-....
Liberal-..On certain things
Satanist-..I agree with alot of Anton LaVey's views.
Rich...Well..I'm comfortable.

Acording to the wimminz I've talked to that are catholic, I was damned when I was born, basically

Satan was also raised Baptist, and he was never taught that.

Orlanth wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

is an attack on all of evidence based science, and an attack on proper education of young people.

.....effectively implying that religion is such. At the very least giving atheism a false position of authority.
we see this one a lot, a dogma that goes something like this atheism is science, therefore science is incompatible with religion, therefore religion is incompatible with education. It falls apart from stage one, because atheism is religion.

I have made it very clear in this thread that religion as mainstream as the Pope accepts evolution. I have also stated that nothing in the scientific theory of evolution denies the existnece of a Creator.

That cannot be taken as implying that religion is anti science.

YEC/IDs is anti-science. It denies the evidence for evolution, and wishes ID to be taught as a scientific theory.

What "theory" could it really be taught as though? At it's bare bones, one can say that it is theoretically possible that there is a logical intelligence behind the creation of well, everything that we can possibly come to understand. But.... It ends there. What's left to teach in the school? ID as a theory just says "Something bigger than we comprehend may have put some thought into our existance and the existance of everything we know as everything".

Nowhere on the menu are magical apples, conflagrating underbrush, ocean cruises via whale, plagues of bugs, sheep entrails, or anything else.

Okay, you win, ID, theory is valid: Something we CANNOT comprehend MIGHT have made Everything we TRY to comprehend.

What's left to teach? Going beyond the basic admission that we may have been created by something meta-bigger than us - no specifics of what or why or how because we cannot know it's that much greater than us... what is left is tall tales, fables, legends, myths, bed time stories, adaptations of even older religions, santa clause and egg laying bunnies, zombies, god-wrath, and a smattering of actual historical accounts to give an illusion that the whole thing is a historical record.

You're missing the point.

ID says that there isn't evolution, that everything is built by an intelligent designer (== God).

This sounds scientific because of the Irreducible Complexity concept. The problem is that ID is incorrect. At least, the example given of Irreducible Complexity have been shown to have the kind of intermediate stages that ID says can't exist.

The Pope, the CofE and many other Christian sects, have no problem with the idea that God created the universe with a set of physical laws that lead to the formation of planets and evolution as described by science.