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olympia wrote:

jy2 wrote:Dash is making an extraordinary amount of flickerfield saves! Almost all his vehicles should probably be dead if not for those flickerfields.


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olympia wrote:Well the SW player just shot a stunned razorback. General sloppiness on both sides.

Can you really blame them? It's been 11 games in 3 days so far. Plus the partying/drinking afterwards.

They're called status markers. Use them.

Markers or not, people forget....especially when they're fatigued.

The space wolves player tony played a hell of a game and it was close. Ill admit I doubted him in the beginning but he impressed me down the stretch and that sq character with lightning was huge.

Two very good players who showed a very good display of 40k generalship. I enjoyed watched the amount of it that I did, yes there were a few mistakes here and there. But, nothing we can say about that as it is done and I'm sure we have all made mistakes while playing. Some more than others...But congrats to Tony, I wish i was there to play, regretting school more and more..

Yeah, Tempest sure was nasty and seemed as if Dash under-estimated it.

My money's on Tony's more balanced Space Wolves against Allan "Blackmoor's" deathstar paladin GK's. I just really can't see Allan beating an MSU-army in table quarters with such a slow army and so few units, especially an army run by such a great player as Tony.

Dash didn't know about the Chain lightning at all, he thought it was a psychic power. That is his big weakness, he just isn't a "reader type" who will memorize every codex inside out.

Ah, I remember the first time I ran up against the Tempest.

"It does WHAT now?"

Y'know this feed is a very cool thing, but the negative underbelly of people watching games and then assuming the players are cheating when they make mistakes (or even just criticizing players for making mistakes)...I'm sorry, but its just sad.

Let ye who have never made a mistake in a game of 40K cast the first stone...especially if you've played nearly a dozen games in 2 days and are playing under the pressure of a tournament clock & with such high stakes on the line.

Must be fatigue, Blackmoor's made a mistake already. Grand Strategy is supposed to be declared before deployment, not afterwards.

But heck, I make that mistake even when I'm fresh!

Monster Rain wrote:Ah, I remember the first time I ran up against the Tempest.

"It does WHAT now?"

So, speaking of Wolves, how are the Bearded Clams coming along?



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Say what you will about Dash, but he was a great sport during that game.
Yes, I know it was a single game...
...but he was a great sport for that one game.

If the cheating is THAT blatant, how come judges aren't calling people on it? Seems very odd that everyone else sees it but they don't live?

yakface wrote:
Y'know this feed is a very cool thing, but the negative underbelly of people watching games and then assuming the players are cheating when they make mistakes (or even just criticizing players for making mistakes)...I'm sorry, but its just sad.

Let ye who have never made a mistake in a game of 40K cast the first stone...especially if you've played nearly a dozen games in 2 days and are playing under the pressure of a tournament clock & with such high stakes on the line.

I have played at GT's as well. Just because your tired doesnt mean you can forget everything. Tony didnt forget where his units were or that his immobolized vehicle cant contest an objective on the last turn. That was the steak in the heart for dash on the cheating. That is too much for one player to forget in one game especially at the level they are at. I had no prior opinion of dash before watching this game and watching him take advantage of a nice player.

Blackmoor just pulled his patented bump the terrain and knock over all the enemy models maneuver. Although usually I'm on the receiving end of that when playing as his partner at Adepticon.

Gotta root for Blackmoor!

yakface wrote:
Y'know this feed is a very cool thing, but the negative underbelly of people watching games and then assuming the players are cheating when they make mistakes (or even just criticizing players for making mistakes)...I'm sorry, but its just sad.

Let ye who have never made a mistake in a game of 40K cast the first stone...especially if you've played nearly a dozen games in 2 days and are playing under the pressure of a tournament clock & with such high stakes on the line.

Yeah, there's alot of airmchair quarterbacking but at the same time you hold the #1 table at a major event with the #1 ranked 40k player vs the previous year's winner to a bit of a higher standard than a friendly pickup game (especially if the players know they're being televised). Dash is experienced enough in the game with several hundred tourny games under his belt using vehicle heavy armies (both his orks and DE are mech'ed) to know that having a way to record transport status and vehicle damage is a good idea, especially in a rushed tourney environment where you're under the clock.

I think the key here will be to see if any of the mistakes either player makes are detremental to their army from the video recap. If you've got an experienced player who makes frequent small or even big mistakes but they're always somehow to his advantage, a yellow flag should be raised. If the mistakes are both for/against the player, it's a heck of alot likely that it's due to fatigue.

In the end, I actually rather enjoyed watching/listening to the stream and hope that this type of reporting makes it to some of the other big tournies. Bravo to MVBrandt for setting this up!

Tomb King wrote:
I have played at GT's as well. Just because your tired doesnt mean you can forget everything. Tony didnt forget where his units were or that his immobolized vehicle cant contest an objective on the last turn. That was the steak in the heart for dash on the cheating. That is too much for one player to forget in one game especially at the level they are at. I had no prior opinion of dash before watching this game and watching him take advantage of a nice player.

Well, except Tony DID forget where his units were (Scouts) and used the Chain Lightning twice in the wrong phase and that's just what I watched, about half of the match. I'm sure that was not deliberate, and probably did not matter in the end, but in light of that, don't you think it's a little vindicative going on honking about Dash's mistakes everywhere (here AND the chat)?

Isn't it really more indicitive of the quality of "judging"? Supposed judges at their table and all around and no one's getting in trouble, being told no, being penalized, nothing?

As much as this Dash guy sounds like the biggest cheatbag in history, the tourney should be a bit ashamed at the leadership (or lack thereof) being presented.

Backfire wrote:I'm sure that was not deliberate, and probably did not matter in the end, but in light of that, don't you think it's a little vindicative going on honking about Dash's mistakes everywhere (here AND the chat)?

Having your wife and friend post that a previous opponent in the same tourney was a "dick", "cheater", and "douche" tends invite more scrutiny into your own actions, especially if you've got a rep for tourney drama.

Does Tempest carry over to Blackmoors turn? Tony got the power where the enemy moves in difficult terrain, but he got that on the bottom of turn 3 and said it would affect Blackmoor on the top of turn 4. Am I missing something somewhere?


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Tony just made 11/11 armor saves and about 23-28 over the last 2 turns. Yikes!


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Tony also had an immobile Rhino get a weapon destroyed and another immobilised, but said the Rhino was just a box and Blackmoor needed to shoot at it again. Does he have an extra stormbolter on those rhinos?

warboss wrote:
Having your wife and friend post that a previous opponent in the same tourney was a "dick", "cheater", and "douche" tends invite more scrutiny into your own actions, especially if you've got a rep for tourney drama.

Sure, but I find it hilarious that so much internets drama unfolds over the match which has almost no actual on-game drama and neither player seemed to have any beef over the end result.

In unrelated news, I want that guys Power armour. It seems much better than my Deathwing's Terminator armour.

Backfire wrote:In unrelated news, I want that guys Power armour. It seems much better than my Deathwing's Terminator armour.

Not watching this round (need to finish some work) but sounds like it's some artificer quality armor there. My space hulk deathwing force tends to fail 1/3-1/2 their 2+ saves using those marbled space hulk dice... they look pretty but they're apparently weighted by GW the wrong way! :(

Walls wrote:As much as this Dash guy sounds like the biggest cheatbag in history, the tourney should be a bit ashamed at the leadership (or lack thereof) being presented.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's way too far. Pointing out that someone makes a mistake in a game when they've played all weekend is one thing. Saying they're "cheating" (or going even farther, as you did) is way too much to draw from it. I was going to disagree with what yakface said, but in light of this comment, I see where he's coming from.

For example, you point out that he moved an immobilized Ravager to contest- but I believe Tony immobilized it with Chain Lightning in the wrong phase! (I could be wrong- but I think you see where I'm coming from)


Back on topic:

I was out and just got back and the final match is already over half over! Argh :-/

Like warboss said above, major props to MVBrandt for doing this... it's really, really cool!!!

warboss wrote:

Backfire wrote:I'm sure that was not deliberate, and probably did not matter in the end, but in light of that, don't you think it's a little vindicative going on honking about Dash's mistakes everywhere (here AND the chat)?

Having your wife and friend post that a previous opponent in the same tourney was a "dick", "cheater", and "douche" tends invite more scrutiny into your own actions, especially if you've got a rep for tourney drama.

QFT.

A reputation, regardless of it being right or wrong is still a reputation. When one has a bad reputation, it is difficult to remove it. When one is perceived to be a WAAC, then names of certain individuals will pop up.

Since I have never played nor talked too Dash in person, I can not cast that proverbial stone at him. So my slate is clean with him and I'm willing to play a causal game with the man ever a possibility arises.

Blackmoor failed a charge because Tony said Njalls Lord of Tempest power, rolled for on the bottom of turn 3, was still in effect on the top of turn 4. I had always thought Njalls Lord of Tempest power did not carry over to the next turn and that neutered him if he goes second. Has there been a change somewhere? I checked the GW faq and didn't see anything. Blackmoor asked about it and Tony insisted.

So, what is that status of the last game? I can't get the chat to work so my only status updates are in here, besides what I can see (and not playing 40k for several years now, that's not much ).

Who's winning? (It's currently turn 4, they seem to be playing quite fast... which makes sense with a small GK army)

Both players made mistakes...people make mistakes all the time. I agree with yak that it's pretty unfair to assume people are cheating.

I do think this is more an example of the open question (and previous long dakka discussion) about "what are judges for?" Is it their job to judge rules disagreements, line of sight disagreements, etc...or is it their job to closely monitor what unit is what, transports, what is immobilized, etc? I've never played in a tournament where the judge did something that extreme. I kind of doubt that the judge would ever call out in these games "no you can't move that, it's immobilized" but I may be wrong. A lot of people are saying "it's not cheating, otherwise the judge would call it!" but I don't think that's always the case.


I make mistakes pretty often under serious time pressure:

Moving or letting an opponent move an immobilized unit if it is unmarked

Using powers slightly out of sequence (beginning of turn vs beginning of movement phase, for example)

Trying to shoot with a unit that has already shot in a turn, or shooting with a stunned/shaken unit.

Forgetting what units are in which transport.

And these are just the mistakes I make that give me an advantage, obviously I make many more that just hurt me. Forgetting to do things entirely (hello, stormcaller, a spell I always take but hardly ever cast) is a pretty common one as well.

Because of these things I go out of my way in tournaments to prevent these things from happening. I put dudes on top of vehicles to indicate their squad is in there. I try to always use tokens. I try to keep a list of "things I need to remember" for turn-sequence abilities.

I hope that what comes out of having this live feed and so many people watching it or watching the recordings is a real discussion of what people should be expected to do to keep track of what is going on in a game, with no accusations of cheating - just getting the general tournament etiquette and expectation to perhaps include things like tokens and counters by default.


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I have to say I'm enjoying getting to see Blackmoor's GK in action here, I was hoping he'd win to get to this table just to see it play.

DarthDiggler wrote:Blackmoor failed a charge because Tony said Njalls Lord of Tempest power, rolled for on the bottom of turn 3, was still in effect on the top of turn 4. I had always thought Njalls Lord of Tempest power did not carry over to the next turn and that neutered him if he goes second. Has there been a change somewhere? I checked the GW faq and didn't see anything. Blackmoor asked about it and Tony insisted.

You are absolutely right. The SW faq flat out tells you that if you go 2nd, his stuff doesn't work. Tony pulled a fast one there ><

DarthDiggler wrote:Blackmoor failed a charge because Tony said Njalls Lord of Tempest power, rolled for on the bottom of turn 3, was still in effect on the top of turn 4. I had always thought Njalls Lord of Tempest power did not carry over to the next turn and that neutered him if he goes second. Has there been a change somewhere? I checked the GW faq and didn't see anything. Blackmoor asked about it and Tony insisted.

It lasts for 1 game turn unless otherwise specified. From the SW codex, p. 53:

"Refer to the table opposite for the Tempest's effects that game turn."


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Oh, I see what you mean now. Since Blackmoor went first, Tempest is supposed stop after the end of the SW turn, which is also the end of that game turn.

Appears to be a mistake on Tony's part. Doesn't look as if he's aware of it.

jy2 wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:Blackmoor failed a charge because Tony said Njalls Lord of Tempest power, rolled for on the bottom of turn 3, was still in effect on the top of turn 4. I had always thought Njalls Lord of Tempest power did not carry over to the next turn and that neutered him if he goes second. Has there been a change somewhere? I checked the GW faq and didn't see anything. Blackmoor asked about it and Tony insisted.

It lasts for 1 game turn unless otherwise specified. From the SW codex, p. 53:

"Refer to the table opposite for the Tempest's effects that game turn."

That's not the way Tony insisted it worked and he got his way. Someone said MVB might have changed that rule for this tourney. Is that true?

From the FAQ:

Q. How do Njal Stormcallerʼs Driving Gale and Living
Hurricane effects work if the Space Wolves player is the
player going second? (p53)
A. These two abilities have no real effect in games where
the Space Wolves player is going second – the tempest is
yet to rage.

So I cant tell, is it over?


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Am I watching a rerun?