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TheAngrySquig wrote:Acuity? Who did they feth over?

In my opinion, everyone, especially the Cabal.

The Acuity shows the Cabal two different outcomes. One if Chaos wins and one if Chaos loses. But neither of these options seems to be that good a choice. Now, what realm does the Acuity stare into? The Realm of Chaos. What if the Acuity has been shown only these two paths because it's what the Chaos Gods wanted?

The Cabal are so absolutely sure that their actions are the right ones, but what if they aren't? What if they have been mislead? Everything they have acted on could be for the benefit of Chaos rather than to hamper it. Each option they had been shown involved bloodshed on an unprecedented scale.

Maybe if the Alpha's had killed the Xenos and reported back to the Emperor what had happened things might have gone different?

Just another idea I have

I think if the Alpha Legion had remained 'loyal' the Imperium probably would have survived in a much better state. The Emperor wouldn't necessarily have lived, but they'd be the perfect foil for the Night Lords IMO.

I always did see it as a little weird to have two sneaky-stealthy legions on one side

TheAngrySquig wrote:I always did see it as a little weird to have two sneaky-stealthy legions on one side

I am going to assume you mean the other one to be the Night Lords.

Im not entirely sure about them, since I see them more about rapid raids and terror attacks than anything bordering sneaky subtlety. I mean sure, they probably use stealth once in a while, but they're not subtle in their methods, not compared to the Alpha Legion and the Raven Guard. Then again, this is probably me just trying to justify their doctrine of warfare with that being the Traitor parallel to the White Scars. Because I need each of my 9 Loyalist Legions to be a direct mirror of the other 9 Traitor Legions. Just because.

I always thought it was weird the Alpha Legion didn't follow Tzeentch until the Heresy series came out.

Though maybe Chaos having the two sneaky legions is because the Imperium has the Lawful Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, while Chaos gets the... chaotic... AL and NL

Ronin wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I always did see it as a little weird to have two sneaky-stealthy legions on one side

I am going to assume you mean the other one to be the Night Lords.

Im not entirely sure about them, since I see them more about rapid raids and terror attacks than anything bordering sneaky subtlety. I mean sure, they probably use stealth once in a while, but they're not subtle in their methods, not compared to the Alpha Legion and the Raven Guard. Then again, this is probably me just trying to justify their doctrine of warfare with that being the Traitor parallel to the White Scars. Because I need each of my 9 Loyalist Legions to be a direct mirror of the other 9 Traitor Legions. Just because.

They use a more direct form of stealth than the Alpha Legion or Raven Guard. The former will manipulate to get an enemy into the exact position they want, whilst the latter will use stealth to move themselves into a position that best support their goals. The Night Lords are all about fear. Their book series shows how they use stealth to wreak as much havoc as possible. Unfortunate guardsmen or civilians have no idea what is hunting them, but they make their presence known in the form of gruesome presents left scattered around for their quarry to discover.

Ronin wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I always did see it as a little weird to have two sneaky-stealthy legions on one side

I am going to assume you mean the other one to be the Night Lords.

Im not entirely sure about them, since I see them more about rapid raids and terror attacks than anything bordering sneaky subtlety. I mean sure, they probably use stealth once in a while, but they're not subtle in their methods, not compared to the Alpha Legion and the Raven Guard. Then again, this is probably me just trying to justify their doctrine of warfare with that being the Traitor parallel to the White Scars. Because I need each of my 9 Loyalist Legions to be a direct mirror of the other 9 Traitor Legions. Just because.

The Loyalists aren't direct mirrors of the Traitors though. When was the last time a loyalist marine used a blastmaster? If anything, some are inversions and others are twists. AL-UM (Inversion- Unexpected vs Established Tactics). IW-IF (Inversion- Siege breaking vs Defence). NL vs WS (Twist- Jump vs Bike).

Not a direct mirror, but good parralels. UM-BL (tactical genius) WE-SW (Killy) RG-AL (Stealth kills)

#1 Sanguinius - He has a rare quality that most of the other primarchs seem to lack, humility. He also fought Horus knowing he was going to die. Now if he could have kept that fight out of his geneseed the BA would be in a much better place. His loyalty, more than any other primarch's is beyond questions. He presents a more reasonable vision of the close combat expert than Agron.

#2 Magnus - Arrogant or not, he really got raw dogged. He was loyal to the Emprah even if he wasn't obedient. Using Sorcery instead of an astropath was as horrible call, but Horus's treachery was a big enough deal that I can understand why he would want to get it out as fast as possible. 2ndly Why was the construction of the webway so frail that any random sorcery sent the emperor's way could break it? That is just poor planning. Any random cultist in the galaxy could be given the emperor's phone number by Tzeentch and broken it.

#3 Agron - There is something to be said for acting decisively, and Agron does nothing but. He has all sorts of neat anger and awesome violence. Just given his personallity, it was obvious from the start that for his temperament Khorne worship was an inevitability. Also as the primarch for the Angry Marines, he gets even more credit. You can't tell me that the Angry Marines are not Loyalist world eaters.

Ok everyone, lets see some top 5's, mine are

1 Sanguinius
2 Russ
3 Corax
4 Magnus
5 Vulkan

1. Magnus the Red.
2. Angron
3. Perturabo
4. Ferrus Manus
5. Sanguinius

Roughly, anyway. The only definite constant is that Magnus the Red is my favorite, the ones on that list could easily alternate, and depending on my mood others, like Konrad Curze, Dorn, or Lorgar could of easily made it there.

Lessee...

1: Alpharius.
2: Magnus.
3: Corax.
4: Fulgrim-daemon. He's smarter than the original at least. Not likely to believe talking swords.
5: Omegon. Or is this one Alpharius?

Durza wrote:He's smarter than the original at least.

Because that is saying a lot.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Durza wrote:He's smarter than the original at least.

Because that is saying a lot.

Well he did fix an entire planet's economy...

I think the insecurity is what appeals to me about Fulgrim though. If only they'd handled it better I could like him as a character rather than a concept...

Durza wrote:Well he did fix an entire planet's economy...

I think the insecurity is what appeals to me about Fulgrim though. If only they'd handled it better I could like him as a character rather than a concept...

I'm not entirely sure that Fulgrim was meant to be likeable. He honestly came off as a massive douchebag from the get-go, IMO.

It's not like McNeil can't write a likeable, tragic traitor Primarch. He succeeded incredibly with Magnus, IMO.

They all have something wrong with them, except for Sanguinius and some of the less developed ones. And don't mention the wings, they're a blessing not a curse

TheAngrySquig wrote:They all have something wrong with them, except for Sanguinius and some of the less developed ones. And don't mention the wings, they're a blessing not a curse

While they all tend to have personality flaws, that doesn't mean that each one is unlikeable.

True, but alot of the time the flaw leads to them being unlikeable. Like Angron and his lobotomy that makes him just a bucket of rage

TheAngrySquig wrote:True, but alot of the time the flaw leads to them being unlikeable. Like Angron and his lobotomy that makes him just a bucket of rage

I personally firmly believe that Angron's rage and directness masks a keen intellect.

Void__Dragon wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:True, but alot of the time the flaw leads to them being unlikeable. Like Angron and his lobotomy that makes him just a bucket of rage

I personally firmly believe that Angron's rage and directness masks a keen intellect.

It has to. He wouldn't have been so damn creepy in After Desh'ea if he wasn't smart. Kharn couldn't have convinced him to stop killing things.

Durza wrote:It has to. He wouldn't have been so damn creepy in After Desh'ea if he wasn't smart. Kharn couldn't have convinced him to stop killing things.

Agreed.

Even though the writing felt stilted at times (Particularly some of Angron's dialogue), I can't help but love After De'Shea for cementing what I've always thought about Angron.

Hopefully the World Eaters novel will be good and showcase this even more. Being written by ADB, I have high hopes for it.

Angron. He never hid what he, or his legion, were around for. The pure destruction and utter subjugation of their enemies. Not the Emperor's enemies, or the enemies of Mankind, but those very stupid few who stood against the World Eaters.

He and his were about violence, martial prowess, and war. The only thing that Space Marines need to be about.

Void__Dragon wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:True, but alot of the time the flaw leads to them being unlikeable. Like Angron and his lobotomy that makes him just a bucket of rage

I personally firmly believe that Angron's rage and directness masks a keen intellect.

I agree, but I also think the mask is stuck

My favourite is the super-loud, ultra-snuggly Leman Russ

The man's voice is described as a "wet-leoprard pur".

I gak you not.

Do leopards purr when they're wet?

Mortarian has a sycthe, he auto wins.

Void__Dragon wrote:The man's voice is described as a "wet-leoprard pur".

I gak you not.

Lemans is? That..That...That....Thats AMAZING

We still doing the top five? Whatever, here goes mine.

1. Rogal Dorn
2. Alpharius
3. Leman Russ
4. Alpharius
5. Corax (who is Alpharius)

Dorn has a ballin moustache, just had to put that out there