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Kilkrazy wrote:They should have had the balls to defend their principles and tell the nay-sayers to not fund the project.

Especially since to some degree it was in Kickstarter's own self interest to defend their own practices. I look forward to, for example, future projects like this showing up on sites like Newsmax braying about how" Kickstarter helps fund abortions" or some other controversial subject/derp. Once you give a mouse a cookie...

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't blame the people "forcing" their views on other people because they didn't.

It was Kickstarter who caved in and pulled a project that was within their rules and had been accepted for the site.

They should have had the balls to defend their principles and tell the nay-sayers to not fund the project.

From what I've gathered it was a mix of some external Blogs and e-mails to both Kickstarter and Amazon that prompted the cancelation. What ever happened to live and let live?

I whole heartedly agree with you about Kickstarter though. I think its time they look alittle bit deeper into what exactly they want to be known for.

A few days ago I stumbled upon a project to make a film about an older woman that finds love at a womans unmentinable store. Fair enough could be a though provoting movie, except that one of the backing levels gets you a bra used in the filming of the movie. How is trading a used woman's bra for money acceptable..... To say that I'm confused by the rules governering Kickstarter would be something of an understatement.

Ugh this move by kickstarter makes me so angry.

Kickstarter is a company that answers to it's backing public, or not, as it sees fit. Weighing the pros of hosting this project vs the backlash from the public, who literally vote with their wallet on this site, it chose damage control over any high minded stance.

Which is exactly what I would have done, had I been in the same position. I'm not going to hurt my livelihood over a card game. As much as that sucks to be Soda Pop in this part of the equation, you do what needs to be done, and fix it from there.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Kickstarter is a company that answers to it's backing public, or not, as it sees fit. Weighing the pros of hosting this project vs the backlash from the public, who literally vote with their wallet on this site, it chose damage control over any high minded stance.

Which is exactly what I would have done, had I been in the same position. I'm not going to hurt my livelihood over a card game. As much as that sucks to be Soda Pop in this part of the equation, you do what needs to be done, and fix it from there.

But in esseance the backing public chose that it liked the game, hence them having already beat their funding goals.

In my opinion their going to generate more flack and ackownledment of the game then they would have if they had just quietly let the game go to completion.

Gymnogyps wrote:RiTides, I understand what you are saying, and I am in a similar place regarding this project. This isn't something that can be broken down to bumper stickers, so I think there may be some needless polarization in some other posts we are seeing here.

Personally, I am not really comfortable with this project, and have really been thinking about why...

A few have mentioned that this is parody. It is not. Parody requires humor, mockery, ridicule, as in the jester revealing hubris and showing it for what it is. I think if this project was true parody, it wouldn't evoke discomfort so strongly, for me at least.

I am perfectly aware this game, on the surface, is innocent. It makes me uncomfortable, though, because it is walking that wink-wink line. We all know what it is hinting around, giving nods to. The whole idea of "tentacle rape" is so alien (literally) that it evokes a deep, almost Lovecraftian horror and revulsion to me. I am so repulsed by it, even this product, which yes, is innocent on the surface, is too close for my comfort.

I get that others, with a different social/ cultural norm, may not feel that way. And that is fine. I am in no way judging what other people like. But i would hope they would allow me the same courtesy.

Now, as for kickstarter. I don't think they should have pulled it. Why? Because their mission is to help stuff get funded and move forward, that otherwise would not. I am not able to reconcile that mission with pulling this project.

I think, instead, they should have put some sort of disclaimer on the page, maybe play the "its ok to not like things" song.

And, ok, so maybe kickstarter took another look and decided this project was not appropriate. That is fine, they are allowed to operate their business as they see fit. But they really need to give some sort of explanation. Otherwise, it appears extremely hypocritical... A fundamental betrayal of the entire premise of kickstarter. And they become exactly that which they abhor, the pigs run the farm, etc...

You're absolutely right! This is no parody! Think of all the large breasted, skinny Asian school girls who are violated by tentacle monsters every day. What an awful problem we face!

Being serious, not every game is for everyone-if it's a made-up game, there is no reason not to make it. I personally have no interest in buying it, but if a friend had it and wanted to play, I'd try it. If we canned everything that somebody was offended over, nothing would get made.

I'm amused at the E-rage and E-offense this generated. I can understand people being offended at the concept given a set of assumptions, but given that nothing is explicit (at least far as I could tell) and it looks rather harmless tongue-in-cheek game parodying one of the most controversial aspects of Japanese culture. Yeah, it's suggestive, but so are a whole lot of other things.

Most of us are here because we play a tabletop game where the "good guys" are genocidal super soldier warrior monks of a oppressive theocratic dystopian regime and the bad guys are so evil they make these guys look good by comparison, so I find it all a bit silly. When we have rape-demons and literal horrors in games, but we get mad about the cutesy sexy-suggestive game, it's smacks of cognitive dissonance.

While this isn't really a product I could ever see myself help funding or purchasing, I really don't have much of an issue with it, there's a lot worse stuff out there that's far more worthy of people's offense and rage, though I'm also a terrible human being so take that as you will.

Wow! What happened here? Or better what are the folks at Kickfart thinking?

Oh well nothing special to say about this apart that Kickstarter fads are getting a bit to much, I'm not a fan of investing in something not produced I dont even preorder things beause that's just me so dang it.

In miniatures business I think who ever is producing needs to have money of their own and invest themselves on their projects and not the other way around, call me old fashioned. In this particular case its not even a miniature game and since there's already some art etc it has a considerable upfront private investment.

timetowaste85 wrote:You're absolutely right! This is no parody! Think of all the large breasted, skinny Asian school girls who are violated by tentacle monsters every day. What an awful problem we face!

While this may be humorous, it seems perfectly in line with Hentai sensibilities, not subverting or mocking them to point out the ridiculousness of it.

Manchu wrote:I suppose drawing my own conclusions is the only possible route then.

You should try googling the name and seeing what turns up.

Apparantly some people were upset over the implied rape aspects of the game.

Catyrpelius wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:Kickstarter is a company that answers to it's backing public, or not, as it sees fit. Weighing the pros of hosting this project vs the backlash from the public, who literally vote with their wallet on this site, it chose damage control over any high minded stance.

Which is exactly what I would have done, had I been in the same position. I'm not going to hurt my livelihood over a card game. As much as that sucks to be Soda Pop in this part of the equation, you do what needs to be done, and fix it from there.

But in esseance the backing public chose that it liked the game, hence them having already beat their funding goals.

In my opinion their going to generate more flack and ackownledment of the game then they would have if they had just quietly let the game go to completion.

This the public did vote with there wallets, it was a go for it here are money, The I'm better then you, so you can only like what I likegroup bitched, with there months and killed it.I wonder how many of then every kickstarted a thing in the first place.

Not sure I have toooo much to add here, because I think the "Those politically correct prudes have ruined things for everyone, amirite!" nerds have staked their claim to this thread.
I'm impressed that people have somehow managed to turn finding the objectification of women and implied rape distasteful into "uptight puritanism". I must be super right wing if I think that establishing forced rape porn as a cultural touchstone has a negative impact, however small, on how women are perceived and treated in that society.

Ahtman wrote:While this may be humorous, it seems perfectly in line with Hentai sensibilities, not subverting or mocking them to point out the ridiculousness of it.

So now it's the "Hentai sensibilities" that are the problem? Not actually doing or advocating anything wrong, but only an interest in imaginary bad things happening to imaginary people?

Clearly the sensible thing to do would have been to keep in line with the basic idea of Kickstarter and have dueling fundraisers.

If the people who don't like it put up more money than the people who did like it, then it doesn't get made.

To the e-wallets!

biccat wrote:

Manchu wrote:I suppose drawing my own conclusions is the only possible route then.

You should try googling the name and seeing what turns up.

Apparantly some people were upset over the implied rape aspects of the game.

You should try reading the thread.

Apparently I posted links to negative reactions to the game pages ago.

Manchu wrote:

biccat wrote:

Manchu wrote:I suppose drawing my own conclusions is the only possible route then.

You should try googling the name and seeing what turns up.

Apparantly some people were upset over the implied rape aspects of the game.

You should try reading the thread.

Apparently I posted links to negative reactions to the game pages ago.

I see my earlier reaction was not misguided.

Thanks for the response!

plastictrees wrote:I'm impressed that people have somehow managed to turn finding the objectification of women and implied rape distasteful into "uptight puritanism".

It's not nearly as impressive as turning a card game into advocacy of violence against women.

AlexHolker wrote:

Ahtman wrote:While this may be humorous, it seems perfectly in line with Hentai sensibilities, not subverting or mocking them to point out the ridiculousness of it.

So now it's the "Hentai sensibilities" that are the problem? Not actually doing or advocating anything wrong, but only an interest in imaginary bad things happening to imaginary people?

My statement is not in response to the banning of the KS, which I think was not well thought out by KS, but to the poster who thought it was a parody, which it is not.

Meanwhile, the creator of Hentacle (sort of) weighs in:

http://postmortemstudios.wordpress.com/tag/tentacle-bento/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:... who thought it was a parody, which it is not.

It is telling that "parody" is the immediate defensive position. It shows how the language of IP disputes has really sunk into our local culture around here.

plastictrees wrote:I must be super right wing if I think that establishing forced rape porn as a cultural touchstone has a negative impact, however small, on how women are perceived and treated in that society.

I know of a place were rape and images of it will get you killed, they also make women cover all the body when in public and they can't go out without a man going with them. I also know of a place were there allowed to run companys and aren't treated like property, you should see the thing they let the public see in there places. It is sick, even to most of us that were supporting this game. I know the type of world I want to live in, one were all treated equal even if it mean thing I don't like have to be there as well. Can you guess with one block internet site and human rights.

Noir wrote:

plastictrees wrote:I must be super right wing if I think that establishing forced rape porn as a cultural touchstone has a negative impact, however small, on how women are perceived and treated in that society.

I know of a place were rape and images of it will get you killed, they also make women cover all the body when in public and they can't go out without a man going with them. I also know of a place were there allowed to run companys and aren't treated like property, you should see the thing they let the public see in there places. It is sick, even to most of us that were supporting this game. I know the type of world I want to live in, one were all treated equal even if it mean thing I don't like have to be there as well. Can you guess with one block internet site and human rights.

I guess you are ok with Child Pornography then? Plus, I love that you worldview has all the nuance of India Ink, where either rape is ok with everyone on all levels or a despotic, theocratic nightmare.

Also, rape gets you into trouble pretty much everywhere, so I'm not sure advocating this being a bad place becuase it doesn't allow rape is a very good argument. Are you sure you meant 'rape and images of rape'? I'm pretty sure even the designers of the game would not be on your side with the former.

I'm curious as to what line a project would have to cross for all of Dakka to agree that the project should be pulled.

Consider this:

A simple "trick taking" matching game is produced in which each player (3 or more) play the part of a cute, playful Schutzstaffel officer in 1940's Germany.

The simple mechanic is that you must match an adorable, pastel painted, anime-style Jew with a location in Germany, and a Sneaky Snatch action.

No summary executions, internment camps, or gas chambers are ever mentioned, implied, or otherwise suggested by the art, ad campaign, or literature that accompanies the game.

Would Kickstarter be obligated to pull a game with THIS theme?

redstripe wrote:I'm curious as to what line a project would have to cross for all of Dakka to agree that the project should be pulled.

Consider this:

A simple "trick taking" matching game is produced in which each player (3 or more) play the part of a cute, playful Schutzstaffel officer in 1940's Germany.

The simple mechanic is that you must match an adorable, pastel painted, anime-style Jew with a location in Germany, and a Sneaky Snatch action.

No summary executions, internment camps, or gas chambers are ever mentioned, implied, or otherwise suggested by the art, ad campaign, or literature that accompanies the game.

Would Kickstarter be obligated to pull a game with THIS theme?

I think Barbarossa, an established card game, actually comes fairly close to that description.

Edit:

Kind of hard to find safe-for-work pictures of that game

Ouze wrote:

ceorron wrote:What I really don't like is the way kickstarter have gone about this. If they were going to do this they should have stepped in earlier made their point of view know and saved everyone a lot of wasted time.

...What I don't like is that they initially approved it and then later shut it down, that they didn't tell the project owner first, and appear to have done it to appease a few public critics...This is a big black eye for me for Kickstarter.

A more "glass half full" way of looking at it is that I'm actually glad they didn't give it the boot during the initial stages. Kickstarter gets way more hits than Sodapop does, hence the project got way more coverage/exposure than it ever would have if Sodapop would have gone it alone. I for one may not have heard about it for months for instance. Good on Sodapop for getting this thing off the ground despite the rough patch of road they encountered.

MightyGodzilla wrote:

Ouze wrote:

ceorron wrote:What I really don't like is the way kickstarter have gone about this. If they were going to do this they should have stepped in earlier made their point of view know and saved everyone a lot of wasted time.

...What I don't like is that they initially approved it and then later shut it down, that they didn't tell the project owner first, and appear to have done it to appease a few public critics...This is a big black eye for me for Kickstarter.

A more "glass half full" way of looking at it is that I'm actually glad they didn't give it the boot during the initial stages. Kickstarter gets way more hits than Sodapop does, hence the project got way more coverage/exposure than it ever would have if Sodapop would have gone it alone. I for one may not have heard about it for months for instance. Good on Sodapop for getting this thing off the ground despite the rough patch of road they encountered.

Welcome to the streisand effect.

redstripe wrote:Would Kickstarter be obligated to pull a game with THIS theme?

The question and the hypothetical you described constitute a red herring.

Kickstarter's suspension of Tentacle Bento does not send a clear signal about where the line is.

The signal that Kickstarter sent to its customers (game designers as well as you and me) is this:

"There is a line. We choose not to disclose it, as that would not be in our interests. But we may enforce it when you're $30,000 into your project despite us having given you the go ahead in the first place."

So really the lesson here is that it is not good to be a customer of Kickstarter.

There's a lot of talk in this thread about Kickstarter having the "right" to suspend projects. Sure they do. But let's look at what that really means.

The business of Kickstarter is connecting content creators with investors. When Kickstarter hosts Company X's project and I back it, I am not Company X's customer. Rather, I am Company X's investor. Meanwhile, I am also Kickstarter's customer. And Company X is Kickstarter's customer.

By refusing to connect certain creators with investors, Kickstarter is exercising its right not to do business with anyone that wants to do business with them. Again, that's cool. There's no need to dream up a card game trivializing the Holocaust to make that point acceptable.

Kickstarter's right to do business with the customers it chooses is NOT at stake. What is at stake is the credibility of Kickstarter. In peddling its services, the connection of creators and investors, Kickstarter makes a lot of claims to advocating creativity. As of this post, the top banner on their homepage reads "Fund & Flow Creativity."

By exercising its right to deal with some projects and not others, Kickstarter is undermining this claim. As a customer of Kickstarter, my take away is "this business does not actually provide me with the service that it advertises."

In this case, it's not just me, Manchu, who is not being well-served as a customer. As I mentioned earlier, the message that Kickstarter has sent in this instance is that they may or may not be able to provide services to any potential customer (whether creator or investor) ... but there's really no way to know whether they will or not.

If I were a creator, I would never use Kickstarter after this because I would learn from this situation that it is not necessarily a stable connection to my potential investors. Kickstarter could step in at any time and exert the very thing that it is selling to me -- namely, freedom from third-party control of funding.

As an investor in terms of crowd sourcing, I will never use Kickstarter again because of the same reason. Kickstarter sold me the idea that they would help me establish direct contact with the content providers that I wanted to help succeed. But they have now shown that they are really a middle man, and a fickle one at that.

Just one more time for anyone who may have missed it: I don't need Kickstarter to tell me that it's okay with Tentacle Bento or that it's not okay with it. The thing that I am paying them for is for them NOT to weigh in on questions like that. So by weighing in, they have actually rendered their own service value-less to me.

plastictrees wrote:I'm impressed that people have somehow managed to turn finding the objectification of women and implied rape distasteful into "uptight puritanism". I must be super right wing if I think that establishing forced rape porn as a cultural touchstone has a negative impact, however small, on how women are perceived and treated in that society.

Since you're posting here, I'm going to assume you play 40k, WFB, Warmahordes or any other wargame available now. Which doesn't make you super right wing, but does makes you a hypocrite since you don't seem to think establishing brutally murdering people for the sake of it as a cultural touchstone has a negative impact, however small, on how we approach aggressions and violent crime as a society.

Then again I'm a something something nerd staking claim to something, so why would you care what I have to say, amrite?

redstripe wrote:Would Kickstarter be obligated to pull a game with THIS theme?

I would expect such a game to fail on its own merits, without Kickstarter lifting a finger.

Even if it did not, Kickstarter allowing a Holocaust card game to be funded through Amazon FPS would make me more inclined to use that service. Not because I have any fondness for the Nazis or their idiot worshippers, but because a money transfer provider that will not exert editorial control over legal purchases - even ones as offensive as a Holocaust card game - is one I trust more not to pull the same kind of stunt when it really matters.

Yeah, don't like it don't pledge. I thought the card game was pretty damn stupid and it's not at all the sort of thing I'd be interested in. So I wouldn't pledge any funds for it, and I wouldn't buy it. That's as far as I go. If enough people want it enough, they'll pay for it. That's up to them. I of course reserve the right to judge the hell out of them for having such poor taste

This is a silly action by Kickstarter, and makes them look foolish as they just chose Tentacle Bento as one of their staff picks for funding. That said, Kickstarter is a privately-owned company, and of course they can do as they please. I suspect they made this choice from a purely economic standpoint. Kickstarter is seen as a darling of the creative arts community, and negative publicity/boycotts would have hurt Amazon's bottom line. That's fine, but again, I'm dissapointed and it makes them look foolish.

Someone earler mentioned the now-infamous Penny Arcade Dickwolves comic strip as another example of a vocal group shouting down or quashing ideas/art/humor they find offensive. I don't see a huge difference between a game like this and controversial artwork. I wouldn't go to see a crucifix in a jar of urine, but I wouldn't deny anyone else the right to see it either.

I believe in a free discourse, and in allowing the market to decide these matters. If the negative publicity for Tentacle Bento is severe, it will hurt Sodapop. That is fair. In this case, a large audience has already pledged money to the project. Let's allow Sodapop to decide if they wish to take the risk of going forward. I wish Sodapop luck in their own funding efforts.