AdeptiCon 2016: Dark Deeds to be Released at AdeptiCon! Exclusive Cards!

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**SonsofVulkan**

Lol I still gotta give Aaron aelong credit for winning the tourney with a 100+ Pt deficit after getting punished.

**gigasnail**

Anyone have any notes on the 12th place Nid list?

**Gamgee**

Anyone know about the 11th place Tau list?

**jy2**

SonsofVulkan wrote:
This means I can bring servitors to fill the elite tax for CoTGW Det base on how Adapticon rule it while having IP as hq

Dunno. By RAW, you can't, but you're going to have to ask the TO's directly how they will be ruling it. They may well have ruled it the same way as Lone Wolves, I really don't know.

**SonsofVulkan**

jy2 wrote:
SonsofVulkan wrote:
This means I can bring servitors to fill the elite tax for CoTGW Det base on how Adapticon rule it while having IP as hq

Dunno. By RAW, you can't, but you're going to have to ask the TO's directly how they will be ruling it. They may well have ruled it the same way as Lone Wolves, I really don't know.

I posted the questions in the Nova thread too. Hopefully we'll get a answer soon. Taking blood claws blows and grey hunters blows

**jy2**

NotThisTime wrote:
jy2 wrote:
There are troops in the army. The rules for the Lone Wolf does not say that the troop has to be from the Space Wolf detachment. It doesn't even have to be a troop from the SW codex. It just has to be a troop in the army. I know that's a technicality, but the RAW is correct, even if the RAI probably isn't.

Wow jy2, that's a bit of a stretch even for you as two of the three unit choices are Wolves. Assuming Troops could be taken from another codex to satisfy the rule leaves me at a loss for words. The list is illegal and Adepticon compounded the issue by not posting to the masses there intent on the rule. And that cannot be debated.

What I think is unimportant. What is important is what the TO's think. It really depends on the tournament format. In the ITC, which is more conservative in nature, they would probably rule it as RAI. However, in a format such as NOVA, who is more strictly-by-the-book-interpretation, they would probably rule it as hardcore RAW. I'm just saying that there is a basis for this interpretation on a purely RAW basis and that it could go either ways depending on the tournament format.

jy2 wrote:
As for the 2nd part of your comments, there is just too much source material out there that no one will ever know everything exactly. No one can also account for all the rules interactions for all combinations as well. TO's will address/FAQ probably the most common/frequent questions that come up, but on the back end, there are 100's and 100's of lesser questions that most people don't know to even ask simply because they don't know armies other than their own. It's quite common and ironically, the larger the tournament, the longer and harder it becomes for TO's to address these issues. Rather, they do quick replies to people's queries just so that those people can prepare their armies for the tournament. Transparency will always be an issue because TO's simply do not have the time and resources to address every single concern that is asked of them. For example, the TO may address the Piranha Firestream rules in a FAQ (or publicly) because probably 1000's of people ask them the same question over and over, but to the 1 guy out of 10,000 who asks about Lone Wolves filling up an Elite slot, it becomes much easier for the TO to simply answer his email/question directly. In such a large tournament, you need to take responsibility for your own army. If you have a question about your army, you better ask (and ask again if you don't get a response) the TO. DO NOT expect the TO's to address the millions and miliions of rules permutations/list building combinations by him/themselves. NO ONE has the time to do that.

I agree with you but in this case we are talking about the basics of army list construction, not the interaction of game play between units/models. Before anyone rolls a single die in a tournament, the guidelines for how all armies are to be constructed should be as transparent as glass. If your telling me when can't that right than what's the point.

As with rules interactions, list building nowadays is so convoluted that many TO's really don't know all of the nuances of the lists. Yes, there are published guidelines to what/how you can run your army. However, there are also the "finer points" of list building where TO's probably never even considered. This is one such case and TO's will sometimes make mistakes as well or just interpret it differently from what you do.

**Drinkgasoline**

Any hope of seeing some top lists?

**iNcontroL**

gigasnail wrote:
Anyone have any notes on the 12th place Nid list?

5 flyrants
1 malanthrope
1 tervigon + 30 termagants
1 dima

And I think some mucloids.. he is a very good player (best dressed 100% of the time) and a nice guy. His losing game he got D 6'd 4-5 times? Flyrant, Dima, Malanthrope and Tervigon that I know of... fun times.

**gigasnail**

Thanks man~

**PanzerLeader**

@jy2: By strict raw, if any troops unlocked lone wolves than any troops would make them slot less. Once slot less, they can't fill mandatory selections for the COTGW detachment. Pure RAW would make it still illegal. It's definitely a TO call though. Adepticon had a ruling and stuck with it.

**NotThisTime**

PanzerLeader wrote:
@jy2: By strict raw, if any troops unlocked lone wolves than any troops would make them slot less. Once slot less, they can't fill mandatory selections for the COTGW detachment. Pure RAW would make it still illegal. It's definitely a TO call though. Adepticon had a ruling and stuck with it.

Where's the ruling in print PanzerLeader?

Adepticon coming out after the fact to stand by a ruling that was never published to the players seems a bit too convenient. I'm not sure I can justify your statement that Adepticon had a ruling and stuck by it.

There's no basis to support such a claim unless you can support it somehow...

**PanzerLeader**

NotThisTime wrote:
PanzerLeader wrote:
@jy2: By strict raw, if any troops unlocked lone wolves than any troops would make them slot less. Once slot less, they can't fill mandatory selections for the COTGW detachment. Pure RAW would make it still illegal. It's definitely a TO call though. Adepticon had a ruling and stuck with it.

Where's the ruling in print PanzerLeader?

Adepticon coming out after the fact to stand by a ruling that was never published to the players seems a bit too convenient. I'm not sure I can justify your statement that Adepticon had a ruling and stuck by it.

There's no basis to support such a claim unless you can support it somehow...

The TOs made a ruling. I assume they made it in good faith. I think it should have been published ahead of time through an email or newsletter but I have seen no evidence that indicates an act of bad faith by the TOs, i.e. Something that indicates a post facto ruling or cover up.

**Defeatmyarmy**

PanzerLeader wrote:
@jy2: By strict raw, if any troops unlocked lone wolves than any troops would make them slot less. Once slot less, they can't fill mandatory selections for the COTGW detachment. Pure RAW would make it still illegal. It's definitely a TO call though. Adepticon had a ruling and stuck with it.

Even with all the negativity, he supposedly did email the TOs before adepticon. The way the book worded the rule sucks, but this is starting to sound like a witch hunt until someone can contact him, the TOs, and the finalists that he played to confirm what he did in game and what verifications were made by email. With that said, I admit that it sucks the way the event happened. People discover loop holes in the rules that they can exploit, and yeah it's frustrating but it does appear RAW not RAI until faqed

**luke1705**

Witch hunt aside, where can we get more info about the top lists?

**Defeatmyarmy**

luke1705 wrote:
Witch hunt aside, where can we get more info about the top lists?

It's weird that in tournaments so big the lists are not posted. I searched for last year top players too, only main list and Independant posts. It seems that as big as Adepticon is, the lists are only posted independently. Tastytaste is pretty reliable obtaining lists when he goes to tournaments he lists off the army list winners on BoK tournament list compendium, but his most recent was the LVO top players. (Not sure he went to adepticon)

**tastytaste**

Defeatmyarmy wrote:
luke1705 wrote:
Witch hunt aside, where can we get more info about the top lists?

It's weird that in tournaments so big the lists are not posted. I searched for last year top players too, only main list and Independant posts. It seems that as big as Adepticon is, the lists are only posted independently. Tastytaste is pretty reliable obtaining lists when he goes to tournaments he lists off the army list winners on BoK tournament list compendium, but his most recent was the LVO top players. (Not sure he went to adepticon)

I didn't go, but I will try to hunt them down as best I can.

**Median Trace**

In the technology age with various programs to generate lists, how can you not calculate point costs correctly? I assume you generate the list using a program and then double check manually the points. But ultimately the punishment for breaking the rules will determine the diligence with which a player checks this.

**Ravenous D**

Gotta love that LVO and adepticon have both been won by people carrying special emails.

Oh and as for the bikes and the -2 rule, its right in the bike section they ignore that while charging but take dangerous terrain.

**flyfishfreak**

Aleong is clearly a great 40k player, but if you can leave "no doubt" then you earn the respect of your peers. Last year at Nova it was the same thing (witch hunt, or not) he failed to win without controversy.. This year and again he leaves doubt amongst his peers via rules lawyering, FOC and gameplay. As far as the Organizers, I do think it shows poor planning to not post specific rules changes, or rulings so all players can benefit. The fact the Organizers didn't, lends to the "good ol' boy" conspiracies that plague competitive 40k-either you're in the club and can get favorable decisions, or you're not..

**Fxeni**

i will try to get my list (and others that I played against)up after the tournament is done - still exhausted from teams, etc.

**DooDoo**

It's obvious that Tau have not been nerfed enough, please remove surges and riptide wing.

**KillswitchUK**

Ravenous D wrote:
Gotta love that LVO and adepticon have both been won by people carrying special emails.

Oh and as for the bikes and the -2 rule, its right in the bike section they ignore that while charging but take dangerous terrain.

Hey don't get me involved!
I checked with the TO and head judge the ruling for the wraithknight which was confirmed and the head judge was given a copy. So don't get me involved in all this thanks.

**GreyDragoon**

Hey guys,

I was running the Tau list in the top 16. Was a good run of it, and honestly it came down to if Nick or I went first and if the winds of fate gave him a double fail on his grimoire T1 or T2. None of this happened, so such is life. He did eat an egregious triple 6 on stomps later in the match, but it was too little too late as with Adepticon mission formatting the star really didn't count for much at that point in the game.

I won't get into the conversations re: Aaron's list - other than to say that at the end of the day once you're in a tournament the TO's rules stand. They can be frustrating, they can be wrong, but they are the TO and it's their tournament. You live and learn and go onto the next GT if you get screwed up by a big ruling in your opponent's favor.

Great time seeing a playing everyone out there this year!

**40kmaster1**

You should have a legal army list for events plain and simple. If it's to complicated for you to make a list that is legal then don't come to the event. Future events if your list is found to be illegal then you are eliminated. I really don't understand why people defend people that cheat.

**Drinkgasoline**

GreyDragoon wrote:
Hey guys,

I was running the Tau list in the top 16. Was a good run of it, and honestly it came down to if Nick or I went first and if the winds of fate gave him a double fail on his grimoire T1 or T2. None of this happened, so such is life. He did eat an egregious triple 6 on stomps later in the match, but it was too little too late as with Adepticon mission formatting the star really didn't count for much at that point in the game.

I won't get into the conversations re: Aaron's list - other than to say that at the end of the day once you're in a tournament the TO's rules stand. They can be frustrating, they can be wrong, but they are the TO and it's their tournament. You live and learn and go onto the next GT if you get screwed up by a big ruling in your opponent's favor.

Great time seeing a playing everyone out there this year!

What was your list pal?

**GreyDragoon**

I'm not of the list posting type. If one of my opponents wants to share they can, but I prefer to keep playing lists with a slightly different take on Tau (they're not completely off the wall) and publishing them as netlists never helps that. So I would prefer they not as well.

General outline of it was Tau CAD, FE Allies, Riptide Wing, Inq.

**DooDoo**

GreyDragoon wrote:
I'm not of the list posting type. If one of my opponents wants to share they can, but I prefer to keep playing lists with a slightly different take on Tau (they're not completely off the wall) and publishing them as netlists never helps that. So I would prefer they not as well.

General outline of it was Tau CAD, FE Allies, Riptide Wing, Inq.

Double surge with riptide wing?

**Gamgee**

Double Surge, Riptide Wing, Guessing FSE Crisis of some kind but did it come in Allies Detachment or Retaliation Cadre variety

and the Inq.

Well if you feel like shooting me a pm I'll respect your privacy and not share it with anyone. Otherwise cool and hope you can cook up a better list next time.

**Vaktathi**

jy2 wrote:

There are troops in the army. The rules for the Lone Wolf does not say that the troop has to be from the Space Wolf detachment. It doesn't even have to be a troop from the SW codex. It just has to be a troop in the army. I know that's a technicality, but the RAW is correct, even if the RAI probably isn't.

If this was the justification presented to me by an opponent at a tournament, and it was allowed to stand by a TO, I would concede and leave the event then and there. That there was another ruling allowing them to take up an FoC slot in direct contravention of the printed text, on top of an issue with the list going over on points, is a whole lot to simply hand-wave away. I won't get into the -2" charge issue since I have no idea how that went down, but to have three distinct issues with the army list should have been more than enough to put a player out of contention. I certainly would expect myself to be removed from contention if I ran such a list at a tournament.

If TO's are having issues sorting out lists like this, perhaps it's time to start limiting them more forcefully, particularly the allies and detachment shennanigans.

**Reecius**

Great event! Just breaking down our booth and getting ready to shut it down. Thanks to everyone that came by and said hi, had a beer with us and to all of my opponents in the 40k champs!

ALso, huge thanks to the Adepticon crew for all their hard work in throwing such an awesome event.