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 Drasius wrote:
"Oh, Necrons have no psychic defense, it's perfectly balanced!"

I'll go let the orks and DEldar know then shall I? I'm sure the Sisters will feel so much better about that too, given the abundance of 3++ T5 multi wound 12" moving death-on-a-stick. I have no doubt that KDK will also find this greatly reassuring.

That's not even counting the guard, who can't really effect anything offensively with their psychers, or the few crazies who play black templars.

Nobody cares that the tau don't have any psychers or psychic defense since they can an will shoot you off the board before it matters while it's the other extreme for 'crons, since even with psychic powers, nothing keels over anyway.

The best psychic witchfire (though cleansing flame and eldritch storm give it a run for it's money) is psychic shriek. Even if it goes off, even if you don't manage to roll a 6 and deny it, even if it hits, on average it does 1 wound, then you get your 4+++, so we're down to maybe, possibly doing a single wound. Heaven forfend that we target a unit with a invo save (wraiths for example), then you're doing roughly 0.3 wounds. It's also not like a unit that commonly comes with wraiths can take a 5 point upgrade to hand out adamantium will or anything is it?

Yeah, that'll definately fix the problem, plugging away with 1 wound every 3 rounds.

If you're meaning other armies can cast powers and buff themselves, then you don't really have that much less defense than any other army bar Eldar, Deamons or grey knights, and none of that makes it any more likely that we will be able to remove any of your models.

You forgot about how Tzeentch Daemons have almost ALL their ranged abilities tied into Witchfires that will also have the happy effect of buffing those Res Protocol saves to boot!

Experiment 626 wrote:
You forgot about how Tzeentch Daemons have almost ALL their ranged abilities tied into Witchfires that will also have the happy effect of buffing those Res Protocol saves to boot!

No they don't. It buffs FnP, not RP.
Unless they get the FnP improvement 3-4 times, RP will be better.

Also you can't take FnP and RP not-saves at the same time.

There are two types of players tournament players, and those who play for fun. Tournament players know how to win against Necrons based on the stats I have seen, those who play for fun can ask their opponent to not play a decurion. I have even seen tournaments ban formations from play. If your still complaining about a 4+,5+++ rp then you shouldn't be playing this game because in the dark future there is only war, and war my friend is not fair!

 darthdaddy wrote:
There are two types of players tournament players, and those who play for fun. Tournament players know how to win against Necrons based on the stats I have seen, those who play for fun can ask their opponent to not play a decurion. I have even seen tournaments ban formations from play. If your still complaining about a 4+,5+++ rp then you shouldn't be playing this game because in the dark future there is only war, and war my friend is not fair!

That's a fallacy, btw. You can be a stat crazy rules monger and play exclusively as a casual, and there are plenty of tournament players that understand the rules but still play to have fun. Out of state tournaments are a bit different but that's because the cost to get there has an expectation of prize and recognition.

Also: how dare you tell people who have no fun losing 99% of the time against specific armies that it's just not "their" game. That is an insanely elitist ideal, which scares off new and old players alike. It's not uncalled for to hope the game is balance before skill becomes involved. People don't mind the stats of the warrior by themselves, its more that they get a lot of those bonuses for free. My Plaguebearers can get a 4++ with 5+ FNP, but that requires an investment of a herald with the proper locus and hoping they will Cursed Earth for a power. Meanwhile Necrons have a majority of units with free FNP+ and good guns and a set of transports that are a step away from insanely good.

So before you decide to post again: go play a game against Necrons with a army like chaos marines or orks. Honestly try it, and tell us how enjoyable it is to never take a model off your opponents side as they stand and shoot from the objectives, and have wraiths slide in to murder your HQ a turn or two in.

autumnlotus wrote:

 darthdaddy wrote:
There are two types of players tournament players, and those who play for fun. Tournament players know how to win against Necrons based on the stats I have seen, those who play for fun can ask their opponent to not play a decurion. I have even seen tournaments ban formations from play. If your still complaining about a 4+,5+++ rp then you shouldn't be playing this game because in the dark future there is only war, and war my friend is not fair!

That's a fallacy, btw. You can be a stat crazy rules monger and play exclusively as a casual, and there are plenty of tournament players that understand the rules but still play to have fun. Out of state tournaments are a bit different but that's because the cost to get there has an expectation of prize and recognition.

Also: how dare you tell people who have no fun losing 99% of the time against specific armies that it's just not "their" game. That is an insanely elitist ideal, which scares off new and old players alike. It's not uncalled for to hope the game is balance before skill becomes involved. People don't mind the stats of the warrior by themselves, its more that they get a lot of those bonuses for free. My Plaguebearers can get a 4++ with 5+ FNP, but that requires an investment of a herald with the proper locus and hoping they will Cursed Earth for a power. Meanwhile Necrons have a majority of units with free FNP+ and good guns and a set of transports that are a step away from insanely good.

So before you decide to post again: go play a game against Necrons with a army like chaos marines or orks. Honestly try it, and tell us how enjoyable it is to never take a model off your opponents side as they stand and shoot from the objectives, and have wraiths slide in to murder your HQ a turn or two in.

I'm with autumnlotus on this one. I think it's not quite as clean cut as tournament player and casual player. There are all sorts of skill levels and mindsets that vary the players from this game from one another. It is completely reasonable for the players to ask for a game that is balanced before they even start picking an army, to think otherwise is to be nothing short of a masochist or a sadist depending on what side of the power curve you're on.

darthdaddy you got one thing right, war is not fair. But I'm not sure if you noticed so I'll just leave a footnote here: This is not war. This is a game. A social interaction between two or more friends who share common interests and seek a form of enjoyment. A game is indeed intended to be balanced, fair and fun for everyone, not just the elitist few who feel they need to prove their value by beating other people into submission time and again at a table filled with little plastic dudesmen. To say that certain people shouldn't play because they can't build a strong list or afford all the latest hotness of op units or run units that they may not like model or fluffwise just because "they're good" is to do a disservice not only to this game but to the whole community that enjoys it. What you should have said instead is "If people can't deal with a 4+ 5+++ then I would consider asking them if they desired my help in going over their list and finding areas where they could improve it to adequately deal with the necron RP rules." You see that is what this community needs, we get enough gak from GW and their money-hungry ways and inept rules teams that the last thing we need is a bunch of elitist net-listers and WWAC neckbeards shoving it down peoples throats that if you lost it's because you're not good enough and shouldn't play.

/end rant

What I'm seeing from this discussion is this:

The issue isn't with RP or with the Reclamation Legion. The issue is several armies that are severely in need of an update.

 EnTyme wrote:
What I'm seeing from this discussion is this:

The issue isn't with RP or with the Reclamation Legion. The issue is several armies that are severely in need of an update.

Kind of. If all the other armies were to scale for decursion armies then it would be less of an issue, but still obnoxious. I know for a fact that even with chaos Daemons the army is not fun to fight against, and even with eldar it can but annoying unless you cheese it with jetbikes

 EnTyme wrote:
What I'm seeing from this discussion is this:

The issue isn't with RP or with the Reclamation Legion. The issue is several armies that are severely in need of an update.

It's kind of the same as being too short to reach the cookie cabinet, or the cookie cabinet being too high. Either way ends with no cookies. :(

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
What I'm seeing from this discussion is this:

The issue isn't with RP or with the Reclamation Legion. The issue is several armies that are severely in need of an update.

It's kind of the same as being too short to reach the cookie cabinet, or the cookie cabinet being too high. Either way ends with no cookies. :(

Definitely, but I'd think it'd be easier to grab a ladder than sit there yelling at the cabinet. We should be focusing our energy on "finding a ladder" for our "short" armies.

There isn't a ladder that the community will accept. The codex system is over 20 years old and that's what people accept. I don't know if the imbalance is intentional or not with GW, given that there are models that they bothered to sculpt, but never made fieldable.

The Deldar store doesn't have ladders, only step stools. But the Necron store has hydrilic lifts and safety straps xD

The BA store has shovels in aisle A and steam shovels in aisle B for those who play fluffy lists.

 EnTyme wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
What I'm seeing from this discussion is this:

The issue isn't with RP or with the Reclamation Legion. The issue is several armies that are severely in need of an update.

It's kind of the same as being too short to reach the cookie cabinet, or the cookie cabinet being too high. Either way ends with no cookies. :(

Definitely, but I'd think it'd be easier to grab a ladder than sit there yelling at the cabinet. We should be focusing our energy on "finding a ladder" for our "short" armies.

I think the 40k community is too embittered and entrenched in their ideas and "how things are supposed to work" to ever accomplish anything like the Druchii did in fantasy (they essentially made a fandex that was widely accepted, and eventually GW made some changes to the official dex that were clearly taken from them).

We can't even come to a consensus on many of the weak units. You have some people who think mutilators, dark lances, and warp talons are fine, while others think they are hot garbage.
The strong units too, like Warp spiders, have people disagreeing on their power level. It's very hard to have a discussion when this is the setting you have to work with.

The people with those opinions are in the minority tho. This is a math based game, so its easy to prove a unit is good or bad for its cost. Mutilators aren't good, warp spiders have an unfair advantage for their purpose. If you have fun with mutilators, or drop the spiders because you dislike them, that's perfectly fine.

The reason people are bitter and whine is because GW refuses to listen to their fans anymore. They themselves say they ignore their fanbase and don't do market research. Compare that to infinity or PP that actually respond to criticism, and look at fandexes and the like. The fanbases there are still toxic, welcome to the internet, but they tend to nitpick on small things because they tend to get rid of Wraithknight level BS by the end of the year with FAQs.

I want to play Dark Eldar with Wracks and mandrakes. That option is fairly weak and costs me premium premium costs so I don't buy it. I want to play penal guard but they stopped making the models and have no rules, so I bought third party and use Renegades and Heretics for rules. I'm not the majority obviously, but they are losing money because they placed barriers where their shouldn't be. Want to play slaanesh daemons? Welcome to the land of expensive ugly models that are mostly useless on the field.

"so its easy to prove a unit is good or bad for its cost"

You would think. But that's not the case. Blizzard does this by adjusting point costs until the meta is no longer dominated by a build involving a specific unit. This means that Blizzard would have already made scat bikes and WK much more expensive.

autumnlotus wrote:
The people with those opinions are in the minority tho. This is a math based game, so its easy to prove a unit is good or bad for its cost. Mutilators aren't good, warp spiders have an unfair advantage for their purpose. If you have fun with mutilators, or drop the spiders because you dislike them, that's perfectly fine.

I'm not sure if you have seen the threads (mutilators thread is 15+ pages of people claiming math doesn't matter or something to that effect) but people are very entrenched in their opinions on units. It's hard to come to an unofficial consensus of fixes when we can't come to a consensus of power level.
Compared to druchii.net back when their fandex was made, we are hugely fragmented and incapable of working together. Pretty much everyone agreed on power level and there were only a few ideas tossed around to fix units because, mostly, a consensus was reached. You still had occasional problems (should executioners be 2A or 5+ killing blow?) but nothing like you see here.

autumnlotus wrote:

The reason people are bitter and whine is because GW refuses to listen to their fans anymore. They themselves say they ignore their fanbase and don't do market research. Compare that to infinity or PP that actually respond to criticism, and look at fandexes and the like. The fanbases there are still toxic, welcome to the internet, but they tend to nitpick on small things because they tend to get rid of Wraithknight level BS by the end of the year with FAQs.

I actually find the PP forums to be very pleasant. Even with the recent troll nerfs, most people are very calm and nobody tosses around personal insults without everyone, on both sides, getting mad.
Meanwhile, I've had people accuse others of pseudo intellectual circle jerking, abilities to do their jobs insulted, math called out as being wrong and imbecilic (without any supporting evidence of the math being wrong...), arguments made in bad faith, posting style insulted, context warped...without anybody leaping in and saying "whoa, this is a game. Don't get so personal".

This isn't the WoW or League forums, but this is incredibly toxic compared to any other mini's game.

autumnlotus wrote:

I want to play Dark Eldar with Wracks and mandrakes. That option is fairly weak and costs me premium premium costs so I don't buy it. I want to play penal guard but they stopped making the models and have no rules, so I bought third party and use Renegades and Heretics for rules. I'm not the majority obviously, but they are losing money because they placed barriers where their shouldn't be. Want to play slaanesh daemons? Welcome to the land of expensive ugly models that are mostly useless on the field.

True. I would be open to a fan dex for Dark Eldar, they need one and it would be easy to fix, but there would never be a consensus even on the forums, much less with the ITC or anywhere else. The druchii dex was accepted everywhere, and I'd want something similar before I cared.

If people ignore the math sure, but that just makes them wrong. Your army might do better then most observations, but that's a result of a weak meta more then anything. Blizzard tend to do sporadic revisions for revisions sake. Like when they nerfed shadow priests multiple times...despite them not being amazing from the start. Same for GW with Dark Eldar: why nerf wyches? Why nerf Llhamians? None, just random BS

Oh don't mention someone's meta is weak. For some reason that really sets people off. I just had someone freak out because I asked if their vassal battle reports were normal for their meta, since they had mentioned them being against a friend.
It's not worth it.

on the subject of why this forum/game is more toxic then others, its my belief that this is due to GW's refusal to come out with corrections, FAQs, balanced codices.

So when Eldar/Necron/SM codex's dropped a large number of the players for those armies jumped to the defense of the dex sayng that it was as balanced as the recently updated Ork Codex. Anyone who is unbiased who takes a look at both books would be able to say "no thats simply not true" but these players don't want to believe that they have an OP dex, instead they want to believe either A: Your a bad player, or B: They are the best General since Patton.

On the flipside of that coin you have the under powered players who a number of them become rather disgruntled by this behavior and fire back in increasingly insulting ways.

Regardless, I love my Orks, I know they suck and usually do suck, but I won't turn a Eldar/Necron/SM game down simply because I know I am at a disadvantage. Though I might turn it down if i see 3-6 SH/GC on the board

 EnTyme wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
What I'm seeing from this discussion is this:

The issue isn't with RP or with the Reclamation Legion. The issue is several armies that are severely in need of an update.

It's kind of the same as being too short to reach the cookie cabinet, or the cookie cabinet being too high. Either way ends with no cookies. :(

Definitely, but I'd think it'd be easier to grab a ladder than sit there yelling at the cabinet. We should be focusing our energy on "finding a ladder" for our "short" armies.

Or we could do the logical thing and place the cookies in an easily accessible place. These cookies are obviously for everyone, no one person deserves these cookies more than anyone else, so why put them somewhere hard to access? These cookies aren't a secret, we aren't trying to stop little kids from getting at our communal cookies nor are we rationing them so putting the cookies on the ground floor is the most logical solution. FtR In this analogy cookies are fair, balanced and fun games.

There has been this abysmal power creep happening since the Necron codex came out (which sadly skipped Blood Angles). If we bring everyone up to this level, with things getting cheaper and with more fire power not only will everyone need bigger armies but we will also be removing units by the handful. Maybe I'm alone in this, maybe this is why i preferred Warhammer Fantasy due to it being almost impossible to eradicate units without any possible counter play, but in my opinion the power creep is *not* a good thing. But hey, it makes some people feel special that their Wraith Knight or Decurion Necron or 2+ re-rollable cover save bikers can withstand the entire battle line of my Dark Eldar without much of a dent. Dark Eldar used to be considered a glass cannon, and since their cannon hasn't gotten any bigger in such a long time they make a good bench mark for how much this Power Creep has happened.

I just play heralds of ruin, small games tend to be more relaxed and nobody cares if Bill the Raven Guard scout gets shot in the face rather then one shotting a baneblade with the D

It's really two games now. 40K, and 40K+. This is kind of sad, because I may want to play against someone with a 40K+ army and I just have Orks.

On the bright side, take Orks, BA, CSM, IG, DE, and even SW and Grey Knights...there are still plenty of 40K armies left. There is still imbalance here, but it's reasonable, largely. (Thunderwolves vs CSM is still a stretch, but the SW can play down a little and match.)

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:
So when Eldar/Necron/SM codex's dropped a large number of the players for those armies jumped to the defense of the dex sayng that it was as balanced as the recently updated Ork Codex. Anyone who is unbiased who takes a look at both books would be able to say "no thats simply not true" but these players don't want to believe that they have an OP dex, instead they want to believe either A: Your a bad player, or B: They are the best General since Patton.

A: Your a bad player, or

Your

This was a sarcastic joke, right? You're saying that it's that type of player who thinks so highly of their plastic soldierdudes who would be most likely to misspell "you're" as "your," right? Because, frankly, I am inclined to agree, and I find it funny as hell. Not saying all players of top-tier armies are that way, but there are probably a lot more of TFGs following the . I get Preferred Enemy and Hatred against that kind of player .

Actually, this relates a bit to OP. I have a friend who played Necrons, and we started around the 5th/6th switch while Guard was still fairly strong and Necrons didn't have their Decurion madness. Even after he started using the Rec Legion and Canoptek Harvest a couple of times, I didn't mind having more losses and winning only by the skin of my teeth. He played fair, just wanted to try the different units and formations, tried strong units, tried weaker units, but was far from WAAC. I still nurse a grudge towards a Tau player who tabled me on top of turn 2 in a 500 point "friendly"-style tournament hosted by my FLGS. It's not really the armies to me, so much as the amiability of the players who use them.

It depends on the severity of a defeat. If I'm fighting tau I don't mind losing most of my force, if I can blow up a squad or two of his. Against Necrons tho you just can't leave a dent unless you go Overkill on the basic troops. I once did an experiment: take nothing but conversion beamers and Heavy artillary pieces that have have shred (the purge detachment), and try to shoot some necrons off the board. Know how many models I killed? 3 warriors out of 35, and a single scarab swarm. That's not a fun army to fight against, when I can do the same to space marines and drink their tears if they don't take drop pods

 KommissarKiln wrote:

MorkorpossiblyGork wrote:
So when Eldar/Necron/SM codex's dropped a large number of the players for those armies jumped to the defense of the dex sayng that it was as balanced as the recently updated Ork Codex. Anyone who is unbiased who takes a look at both books would be able to say "no thats simply not true" but these players don't want to believe that they have an OP dex, instead they want to believe either A: Your a bad player, or B: They are the best General since Patton.

A: Your a bad player, or

Your

This was a sarcastic joke, right? You're saying that it's that type of player who thinks so highly of their plastic soldierdudes who would be most likely to misspell "you're" as "your," right? Because, frankly, I am inclined to agree, and I find it funny as hell. Not saying all players of top-tier armies are that way, but there are probably a lot more of TFGs following the . I get Preferred Enemy and Hatred against that kind of player .

Actually, this relates a bit to OP. I have a friend who played Necrons, and we started around the 5th/6th switch while Guard was still fairly strong and Necrons didn't have their Decurion madness. Even after he started using the Rec Legion and Canoptek Harvest a couple of times, I didn't mind having more losses and winning only by the skin of my teeth. He played fair, just wanted to try the different units and formations, tried strong units, tried weaker units, but was far from WAAC. I still nurse a grudge towards a Tau player who tabled me on top of turn 2 in a 500 point "friendly"-style tournament hosted by my FLGS. It's not really the armies to me, so much as the amiability of the players who use them.

I didn't misspell your or you're because I am in protest of the words That is actually a serious point I make frequently when people try to correct your and you're. They sound exactly alike because they are exactly alike. The only difference is in written perception which if (your) incapable of understanding then you have other problems. Same for then and than. The English language is probably the most uselessly complex language in the world. But enough about grammar and how useless 90% of the mistakes are and on to Necrons.

If you dislike the difference between "your" and "you're" then you could instead use "you are".

autumnlotus wrote:
The people with those opinions are in the minority tho. This is a math based game, so its easy to prove a unit is good or bad for its cost. Mutilators aren't good, warp spiders have an unfair advantage for their purpose. If you have fun with mutilators, or drop the spiders because you dislike them, that's perfectly fine.

You cannot quantify things like Scout, Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Deep Strike, or versatility, just to mention some of the more obvious things. Units are more than just a collection of numbers.

You can absolutely quantify these things. It'll help assess after the Mathhammer.

For example, Flayed Ones don't excel against ALL targets, but still do excellently against most infantry. Once you add in their Infiltrate, Fear (lame), and Deep Strike, they're actually pretty ridiculous.

*Qualitative*, not quantitative.

Quantitative = Mathhammer

Qualitative = holistic judgement of utility

You can make qualitative judgements. They aren't always based off of math, though can include it, but you can still make observations that people can comment on until a consensus can be reached (or at least a majority opinion).

It's not exactly a complicated game, I've never seen anything that has convinced me otherwise.