Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Like I said, I think I'm just frustrated at feeling like the favourite child with the younger siblings crying that they don't get the same love and attention that the older does...I don't mean that in a nasty way.

Try being the guy that's spent hundreds of dollars on a Chaos Marine army and actually wants to win once in a blue moon.

Try being a Squat.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So really what were seeing is a solid army if taken as CAD not the strongest but definitely not the weakest. At its core its essentially alright. The real issue is the formations which ultimately are optional which really means, the problem is people going for the nearest shiniest thing they can get. People are the problem, not the army.

Pretty much. Necron CAD lists are decent, but far from overpowered or unfair except against the weakest lists (before someone points out that they are still better than BA). If you are taking the basic CAD people shouldn't be whining.

IMHO, the biggest groaning about Necrons that I've seen beyond the Decurion, are the under costed Wraiths. At least in my area.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So really what were seeing is a solid army if taken as CAD not the strongest but definitely not the weakest. At its core its essentially alright. The real issue is the formations which ultimately are optional which really means, the problem is people going for the nearest shiniest thing they can get. People are the problem, not the army.

Well, the formations are official and legal/bound, which the players didn't write, they're part of the rules that define what an army is capable of. Therefor the army is the problem. You wouldn't blame the weakness of BA or CSM on the players, would you?

The difference being that Necron players CAN handicap themselves to play down to the level of BA and CSM, whereas BA and CSM players ARE handicapped without the choice to play up to the level of Necrons. Without any sort of penalty to balance out taking powerful formations, they're effectively -not- optional if you're playing competitively.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So really what were seeing is a solid army if taken as CAD not the strongest but definitely not the weakest. At its core its essentially alright. The real issue is the formations which ultimately are optional which really means, the problem is people going for the nearest shiniest thing they can get. People are the problem, not the army.

That is an argument like "Weapons don't kill, people do".

If you don't give people weapons in the first place... well that's another story, but I think you know what I mean.

I don't like the RP for the same reason as many other said before: It's extreme unfun to play against as it is unfun to play aginst an army where nearly everything is twin linked.
But in general I think Necrons are okay in a CAD. Some units are way to strong for their points, but thats a general balance problem of GW. Other dexes are no better. The whole thing gets out of control if formations are involved. They make an unbalanced game even more unbalanced. Free force multipliers are totally stupid in my opinion. Thats why I stick to the normal CAD.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
... or tell marines they have to follow the rules or...

This line is so perfect.

Ehh, decurion isn't bad. No OS makes its pretty easy to win. The only part that is scary is the wraith formation but if you get some str 10 or kill the spider that takes care of itself as well. They can't kill anything in close combat outside one or two units, their death star is super slow, and ey have no hit and run.

Personally I use force weapons.

Playing Necrons is like playing Tau.

Theoretically it can be great fun! They have loads of cool units that do fun stuff, an awesome walker, cool flyers, jetpack troops deepstrike troops....

Buuuuuuuuut what you're going to get is a decurion, wraith formation, destroyer formation. MAYBE an unkillable brick wall of Lychguard. And it's gonna move 6" towards you, and shoot everything at you, and ignore everything you shoot back.

For 5+ turns.

And you're going to remove maybe 12 models from the table.

And if you win, you lose 90% of your force doing it, and will mostly win by sitting in endless close combats with your Obsec units on objectives.

Fun fun fun fun fun.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Extra Credits actually talked about something similar in game design, namely that a mechanic has to be fun to fight against just as much as it is to use. I think CrownAxe summed it up perfectly; the old RP mechanic meant that you, as the opponent, has to tactically think about wiping out entire units to counteract RP rolls, but currently there's none of that. The Necrons can fight you to a stalemate and force the gameboard to remain exactly the same for turns on end, and it's never fun to keep chipping at the same unmoving brick wall for 4 hours, even if you do win at the end.

However, this wouldn't be the first time GW ended up goofing up one of the basic rules of game design, since they're "no longer a game company". :/

Quoted for truth and exalted! This is the real reason Necrons are not fun; much more so than their overpowered-ness.

People cry to much in general in regards to this hobby and Necrons I feel are caught up in the Xenos hate that appears to be so popular nowadays. Regardless how people feel about it this is accurate to the fluff, its what makes Necrons such a terrifying and tough opponent. Watching as they slowly trudge towards you, piecing themselves back together regardless what you throw at them, coming closer and closer, the embodiment of death. Weight of fire and template weapons have always done great against Necrons in my experience, also I can't tell you how many times there reanimation protocol whiffed during a game.

Ever tried killing necrons. You should try it you will have a blast.

Yes, the trope of indestructable troops is very much a Necron concept. A very unique and enjoyable one.

But the effectiveness of this needs to be reflected in the points cost of the Necrons themselves. Otherwise, what's stopping me from taking a Warrior at 1 ppm? "It's fluffy, what's the problem?" That's the kind of response being said. Yes, it's fluffy, but the points need to reflect this very powerful ability, to stop it being absolutely game breaking and unfun for opponents.

Hell, if we took half the things that Marines do in fluff, there wouldn't be any hope for any other armies. That's because they have to (somewhat) balanced in the game (yes, I mention somewhat, as Gladius and grav are pretty damn good!).

The points of Tactical Marine are fairly accurate. A Decurion Necron is very powerful for it's durability, so much so that it should have a significant increase in points.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Like I said, I think I'm just frustrated at feeling like the favourite child with the younger siblings crying that they don't get the same love and attention that the older does...I don't mean that in a nasty way.

Try being the guy that's spent hundreds of dollars on a Chaos Marine army and actually wants to win once in a blue moon.

Against Necrons? Try being the poor dumb*** who runs mono-Tzeentch Daemons.

At least the Chaos Marines will kill 6 Necrons!
The only thing Tzeentch's boys are going to do is make those Res Protocols into an army-wide 2+++.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ever tried killing necrons. You should try it you will have a blast.

That's the true test. Are Necron players willing to play against Necrons? If they aren't then there might just be a real problem with the army.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ever tried killing necrons. You should try it you will have a blast.

That's the true test. Are Necron players willing to play against Necrons? If they aren't then there might just be a real problem with the army.

I was at an ITC GT in summer where in round 6, there were two necron players in a mirror match effectively vying for best necrons. The big shocker about the game was that no one scored first blood.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ever tried killing necrons. You should try it you will have a blast.

That's the true test. Are Necron players willing to play against Necrons? If they aren't then there might just be a real problem with the army.

I was at an ITC GT in summer where in round 6, there were two necron players in a mirror match effectively vying for best necrons. The big shocker about the game was that no one scored first blood.

That sounds about right.

 Drasius wrote:
I'd still love to know how he's dealing with a decurion with sisters? I've got sisters, and apart from Doms in immos and exos, I'm not seeing much that's going to dent normal guys, and when it comes to lychstar? Man, forget that noise, there's nothing in the entire army that can chip their paint.

Why are people complaining about 'crons? As others have said, 17 point terminators basically. While you might think it's fantastic fun to go an entire game and only lose 3 models, it's not much fun for the other side. It's one of the reasons why people have fun playing orks, since you actually get to remove models, regardless of if you manage to stave off the tide or not. It's the same reason why people often don't have any fun playing imperial knight armies, since 1/2 or more of your army can't do anything but die (not that you'd know anything about that either).

If you can't see that it's not Eldar/SM/Tau that are complaining but the DE/BA/CSM level of players, then perhaps you should take a look at the steaming pile that those players have to call their codecies. The attitude that a bunch of people are whiners who need to l2p when you've had a top tier dex since the end of 5th isn't going to win you any friends bar the most one eyed eldar apologists.

every time someone brings up IK being to hard to kill... Dude, I would rather fight 2 IK than 1 Eldar Wraithknights!

TBH if RP worked similar to the old WBB, instead of just acting like ANOTHER save, it probably wouldn't even be an issue.

If your Warrior fails his 4+, he falls over and at the end of the phase, you roll your RP. If the whole unit has been wiped out, the squad is dead unless a Spider or a Res Orb is nearby.

 Drasius wrote:
I'd still love to know how he's dealing with a decurion with sisters? I've got sisters, and apart from Doms in immos and exos, I'm not seeing much that's going to dent normal guys, and when it comes to lychstar? Man, forget that noise, there's nothing in the entire army that can chip their paint.

You... you're joking, right?

Heavy Flamers slaughter Necron Warriors. Heavy Bolters are almost as good. Melta-Minions are great at anything, and nothing takes down Lychguard like mass S5 - and nobody does mass S5 better than Sisters except Tau, and Tau can't come close to our accuracy.

Why are people complaining about 'crons? As others have said, 17 point terminators basically. While you might think it's fantastic fun to go an entire game and only lose 3 models, it's not much fun for the other side. It's one of the reasons why people have fun playing orks, since you actually get to remove models, regardless of if you manage to stave off the tide or not. It's the same reason why people often don't have any fun playing imperial knight armies, since 1/2 or more of your army can't do anything but die (not that you'd know anything about that either).

lol, next time you think you might be facing Knights, try bringing some Repentia...

Well this was solved in the olden days with Phase Out.

A heavy flamer that manages to hit 5 decurion warriors kills 1.6.

The bolters in the rest of the squad kill .16 each.

That does not an efficient counter make.

If I ever get an opportunity to fight a Necron CAD I'll let you know how it goes. In my local meta Necron is my most common opponent and I've never seen it taken as anything other than Decurion. 4+++ is absolutely insane army-wide and since formation/detachment bonuses are free it doesn't cost you anything to get the better RP. This holds up against other 7.5 armies (Eldar, SM, Tau) who also run their detachments and that's fine but even running a normal CAD of a 7.5 dex can be daunting against crons, with the exception of running an all OP unit list anyways. And what is the "tax" of the Decurion anyways? Anything you see in its core is good and is likely something you'd take anyways. Then when you get to auxiliaries you can take your picks and there are some really good options there too.

Of course now any dex that isn't up to snuff in the power curve (chaos, DE, BA, Orks etc...) can't compete at all. To be fair any low power level dex player is probably not complaining just about your crons, they're complaining about being left in the dust by every new dex since crons.

It's been touched on before but I'll mention it cause it's true: fluffy rules do not always equal fun for everyone. To be honest the old reanimation protocols were probably fluffier, seeing models tip over only to have them stand back up. Now essentially you have a beefed up FnP. Fighting an army to only kill 3 or 4 models is disheartening and essentially playing cat and mouse with objectives for 6 turns gets dry real fast. Objective placement is a huge thing to consider too, if the cron side of the table has a good number of the objectives (via player-placed objective rules in the BRB) then he doesn't even have to go far before bubble-wrapping the objectives then laughing as you fruitlessly attempt to shift his models off of them.

Even if you have ObSec the cron strategy is typically: Advance 6" shoot, Advance 6" shoot. Bubblewrap objective shoot. Other armies you can try to focus fire and shift of important objectives, you can threaten them with big weapons that deny their armour. You can't against crons. It's tough to even leverage a great melee advantage either cause they're all WS 4 for some reason, lychguard and such make sense but why does the basic warrior need to be WS 4, he's not a melee combatant. That means that 50% of your attacks hit and then he's got crazy survivability, at Ld10 even if you do win by a couple kills you've only knocked the cron down to the basic Ld of most other armies troops. Initiative two is their only weakness in this regard.

I wouldn't mind if their Decurion modified their RP a bit but making the jump straight from 5+++ to 4+++ is pushing it.

Inevitable brings up a good point I've thought about before: why on earth are cron warriors WS4?

I personally don't have a problem with RP (even in a Decurion), though I do think it's extremely powerful and one of the best faction perks in the game. On the other hand, I TOTALLY understand the perspective of the people who do have an issue with it.

In my observation, these are people who have problems with ALL the really good stuff in the game: invisible deathstars, scatterbikes, free gladius vehicles, BA drop pods, eldar distortion weapons, imperial knights, tau ignore cover, et cetera.

Essentially, the problem boils down to this: if your opponent has one of the really good things in the game, there are only two viable counters. Take something else really good, or go MSU and win on the objectives. To some people, this is not a satisfying game.

And honestly, to me, it's not a satisfying game either. I don't want to play a Dark Eldar CAD versus a Necron Decurion. It's a total waste of my time. There's no reasonable way that I can win even a quarter of my games, even if my opponent is lousy, and I'm rolling hot and they're making poor game board decisions; and they wouldn't switch sides with me for the same reason. I don't want to play imperial guard and hope that I score enough points before the game ends, or that I'm wiped out. So why don't I have a problem with the really good stuff?

Well, I simply choose to play games that are relatively even in power levels I guess I've just never had a problem finding a partner to play a game of either high or low power level, depending on my mood.

the_scotsman wrote:
A heavy flamer that manages to hit 5 decurion warriors kills 1.6.

The bolters in the rest of the squad kill .16 each.

That does not an efficient counter make.

Your mistake is not enough heavy flamers. Use Retributors.

In my area where we play competitively at 1500 (sometimes 1650) points, Necrons are very average. To get a Decurion functioning well I feel you really need at least 1850 points. The Necron players either have a non-Decurion list which does ok damage but gets shot off the table or have a Decurion list which is more resilient but does very little damage.

I think the problem stems when playing non-competitively because RP isn't a result of some killer combo, it's a basic trait of the army. So an average Necron army is pretty hard compared to an average SM list. In a competitive environment it just isn't spectacular IMO.

People can whine and whine about the 4+++. However, the biggest thing for me is Move Through Cover AND Relentless. I charge Warriors into infantry all the time because of it.

Nurgle troops and Nurgle Marked unuts dont just "Get FNP" neither. Im not sure what BS comparison youre trying to make to make yourself feel better, but Plague Bearers dont get FNP unless accompanied by a herald with Fecunfity. And Nurgle CSM dont get FNP period. Plague Marines can only be taken as troops if you take an 80 point Chaos Lord of Nurgle. And he comes stock with absolutely nothing decent nor worth mentioning.

An army wide 5+ FNP is just disgustingly over the top. As mentioned before, there is no reason for it. The models are under costed and out perform models of higher point values with little to no downsides. The game drags on and math hammering out the army just flat out maths you to death with its rule set.

So...

Original Poster, are you writing this stuff down?

Did it answer your question?

and if this

" hey paul, grab your destroyer EEldar, we got Necrons over here."

Is true, why are you still whining about EEldar?

With unkillable units bubble-wrapping objectives, there is litterally NO WAY FOR THE OTHER SIDE TO WIN. Do you get this now?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
I'd still love to know how he's dealing with a decurion with sisters? I've got sisters, and apart from Doms in immos and exos, I'm not seeing much that's going to dent normal guys, and when it comes to lychstar? Man, forget that noise, there's nothing in the entire army that can chip their paint.

You... you're joking, right?

Heavy Flamers slaughter Necron Warriors. Heavy Bolters are almost as good. Melta-Minions are great at anything, and nothing takes down Lychguard like mass S5 - and nobody does mass S5 better than Sisters except Tau, and Tau can't come close to our accuracy.

No, they don't, and no, they aren't. Warriors are still getting their 4+++, sometimes re-rolling 1's, Emperor help you if you need to take out immortals and they're the troops choices! Not to mention that if you're close enough to fire a heavy flamer, you're going to get charged and swept next turn. Heavy bolters are forced to contend with cover for warriors and 3+/4+++ for immortals. Even rets with Heavy bolters aren't a good answer against immortals and who is taking rets instead of exos anyway unless you're running a blob army (hell, even if you're running a blob army)?

Tau can't come close to your accuracy? Do ... Do you know what markerlights are? Have you heard about a Hunter Contingent? This is one of the more rediculous statements I've heard on these forums, and that's saying something!

Have you seen what wraiths are like now? Nothing sisters have doubles them out, they move 12" a turn and the 3++/4+++ means you could fire your entire army at them for 2 turns and consider yourself lucky if you manage to remove 3 of them. Even without reanimation ('cause lets face it, you're going to try and kills the spyder 1st) it takes 11 melta/exo shots to kill a wraith. 11! I know we're one of the most capable armies to spam melta with, but that's rediculous!

Sisters aren't terrible, definately not as bad as most make them out to be, but they can't compete against crons.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Why are people complaining about 'crons? As others have said, 17 point terminators basically. While you might think it's fantastic fun to go an entire game and only lose 3 models, it's not much fun for the other side. It's one of the reasons why people have fun playing orks, since you actually get to remove models, regardless of if you manage to stave off the tide or not. It's the same reason why people often don't have any fun playing imperial knight armies, since 1/2 or more of your army can't do anything but die (not that you'd know anything about that either).

lol, next time you think you might be facing Knights, try bringing some Repentia...

Repentia? Seriously? How the hell are they going to get anywhere near the knights without a stormraven or landraider. Yes, if they get there, the knight is dead, but they're not going to get there, because the instant they step out of their transport, they're dead. They get mowed down by stubbers for crying out loud. Not to mention that list tailoring is bad. No, if I'm having trouble with knights as sisters, I should be taking more meltas, not wasting points on utter trash like repentia. For the points I'd spend on an ally for an assault transport and a squad of repentia, I could get another CAD with min troops and more dominions which are better in every concievable situation.

The point wasn't that sisters struggle against knights (they shouldn't), the point was that most armies find that half or more of their firepower is wasted against a knight army, and that it's not fun. I know, I've got a knight army and it rarely comes out to play beyond apoc and select tournaments for this reason, because my opponents, win or lose, don't have fun playing against it.