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Made in au
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This is a little bit rantish so feel free to delete, but I am hoping for a sensible discussion about this.

Still, after I don't know how long, when I rock up to the local game group with my crons, I'm still met with groans of disgust and choruses of "they don't die".
Have they no been around long enough for us to know how to work around them with every army? Is the only solution people come up with now just " hey paul, grab your destroyer EEldar, we got Necrons over here."

I'm no stranger to how tough crons are, that's how they're supposed to be, pulling themselves back together with their living metal and all that. I've versed my fair share of decurion with my sisters, its been a learning curve but I've learned how to handle it. There's strategy.

Is it just a mentality that the little plastic models have to disappear. That models have to die and if entire units aren't being wiped out in a single phase then there's not enough damage being done moar dakka! Has our blood lust come to such a point that 40k has become about kill point and scratching kill notches into our carry cases like some khornate berserker? The amount of games I've won just by stoking my opponents lust for blood and making g them forget about the mission is both hilarious and depressing.

I've had some people rant that crons should t be able to get up at all, that even their 5+ is op...well last I checked nurgle had 5+ FNP which until it comes to I'd is exactly the same as the rp in which case it goes to 6+ and frankly is you're passing 6+ you deserve it.
If that's the sort of argument were stooping to, why don't we tell eldar they can't move more than 6" a turn or tell marines they have to follow the rules or orks and nids that they can't field hordes. Every army has their flavour and fluff.

If you approach a game from a narrative perspective, everything makes sense. I find some great narratives come from my games against necrons. Are we too competitive focused now? Have we lost our imaginations?!
   
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Its an incredibly unfun mechanic to deal with because there is literally no interaction with it you just roll dice and watch as your opponent doesn't lose any models. And unlike the previous editions of necrons where you could focus fire and wipe out the unit to the man as a counter tactic, there is literally nothing you can do about RP except take D weapons which only 1 army gets on more then just a LoW. All you get to do is roll dice and hope you get lucky.

A base of 5+ RP isn't that bad on warriors because it just makes them the equivalent of SMurfs but it adds up when its army wide on the already durable units like Immortals and Tomb Blades. And no Nurgle doesn't get 5+ FNP, thats only on a single elite unit choice that is very expensive and has drawbacks added (like SnP). A Tomb blade is basically the same price for the same durability but is also a jet bike.

What really makes it awful is Decurion. Makes RP an army wide 4+ which literally makes immortals 17 pt terminators and warriors 13 pt almost terminators so on and so forth. Especially awful with the Cynaptyk Harvest formation which makes Assault Terminators except with T5, 2W, and 12 movement with fleet. Mor then doubled the durabilty of one of the toughest SM units for the same price and is going to guarenteed assault something turn 2.

Look in the competitive scene Necrons aren't the best as they aren't great at objective games so they haven't made a significant torunement showing. But they are just a no fun army to play against because you basically don't get to do anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/09 01:25:55


 
   
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 CrownAxe wrote:
But they are just a no fun army to play against because you basically don't get to do anything.


That can be said about 40K, not just against Crons.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
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I find it frustrating that no matter how well i roll or developed strategies that my opponents models will just get up again. This is one of the reasons I dislike the formations of formations that give big bonuses. You get bonuses for no points.
   
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Because people still have dexes that are way below the necrons' power level.



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Davor wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
But they are just a no fun army to play against because you basically don't get to do anything.


That can be said about 40K, not just against Crons.

No army has it as bad as crons. Sure a lot of armies can make a silly death star or such but thats usually only a single unit in their army. I can do stuff to the rest of the army. Necrons is army wide unfun.
   
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I personally don't have a problem with necrons. However, the complaints aren't generally because they have models/units that are extremely difficult to kill, it's that they have models/units that some consider too hard to kill for their points cost. Fluffwise necrons should be really tough to kill, but on the tabletop this should be balanced by point costs so they have far fewer models necessary to kill. Many feel, that with the formations, necrons don't have enough trade offs (not that they don't have any like lack of battle brothers, few AP 2 weapons and no psykers) for their incredible durability, making them overpowered/imbalanced.
   
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I can personally see why people can't stand it. I have a damn good deal of AP4 weapons in my army but them still getting a 4+ save is demoralizing. For people to get by two 4+ saves it must feel insane.

It also brings up the mentality people approach it. They see you didn't pay for FnP, you just got it. That model should have been dead.

There is also the terminator test.

-Get hit with AP2 pieplate, the base Necron warrior is more durable and three times less expensive.
-Similar shooting.

People just expect points = usefulness, it often isn't the case.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
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 chalkobob wrote:
However, the complaints aren't generally because they have models/units that are extremely difficult to kill, it's that they have models/units that some consider too hard to kill for their points cost.

This. OP, the title of your post is "Why are people still crying about Necron RP?" The answer is very, very simple:

GW hasn't nerfed them yet.

Once GW nerfs them, people will stop complaining about a below-cost army. Saying "Why are people still crying about Necron RP?" is a lot like asking "why do people still go to jail for theft?"
   
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I know, and respectfully, these arguments are exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. All about the kills. You can win without wiping things out.

I get the feeling really that more and more the rules are emulating the fluff behind things, points aside.
If we looked at games more from a story telling perspective I feel things make a little more sense. I play to have fun and tell stories, that's why I don't field formations or decurion unless my opponent is too. When I walk away from a game there's a story to be told, not a kill score.

Vs tau, the only way I can stomach playing them is looking through the imaginary eyes of the models. On the table, that squad of stealth suits is right there in the open, what garbage is this givig them a cover save? Imagination eyes see some sorta shimmer maybe we should shoot it?

Edit:

I can concede that the crons are undercoated if we're going by mathhammer yada yada yada. Basic sister is 12pts, warrior is 13pts math and stat wise the difference is not well reflected.
Could there be a points increase, yeah more than likely.

I dunno, maybe I'm just tired and frustrated.
I love crons as they are, I feel this has been some of the best rules that closely resemble their fluff to date. But that's just my opinion

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/09 02:26:15


 
   
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Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I know, and respectfully, these arguments are exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. All about the kills. You can win without wiping things out.

I said that in my post. That they aren't unbeatable. Its that the mechanic of not dying is not a fun mechanic to play against.
   
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A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

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Yoyoyo wrote:
People like cryin'


Agreed.
   
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I'd still love to know how he's dealing with a decurion with sisters? I've got sisters, and apart from Doms in immos and exos, I'm not seeing much that's going to dent normal guys, and when it comes to lychstar? Man, forget that noise, there's nothing in the entire army that can chip their paint.

Why are people complaining about 'crons? As others have said, 17 point terminators basically. While you might think it's fantastic fun to go an entire game and only lose 3 models, it's not much fun for the other side. It's one of the reasons why people have fun playing orks, since you actually get to remove models, regardless of if you manage to stave off the tide or not. It's the same reason why people often don't have any fun playing imperial knight armies, since 1/2 or more of your army can't do anything but die (not that you'd know anything about that either).

If you can't see that it's not Eldar/SM/Tau that are complaining but the DE/BA/CSM level of players, then perhaps you should take a look at the steaming pile that those players have to call their codecies. The attitude that a bunch of people are whiners who need to l2p when you've had a top tier dex since the end of 5th isn't going to win you any friends bar the most one eyed eldar apologists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/09 02:30:38


 Peregrine wrote:
What, you don't like rolling dice to see how many dice you roll? Why are you such an anti-dice bigot?
 
   
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Extra Credits actually talked about something similar in game design, namely that a mechanic has to be fun to fight against just as much as it is to use. I think CrownAxe summed it up perfectly; the old RP mechanic meant that you, as the opponent, has to tactically think about wiping out entire units to counteract RP rolls, but currently there's none of that. The Necrons can fight you to a stalemate and force the gameboard to remain exactly the same for turns on end, and it's never fun to keep chipping at the same unmoving brick wall for 4 hours, even if you do win at the end.

However, this wouldn't be the first time GW ended up goofing up one of the basic rules of game design, since they're "no longer a game company". :/

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Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.


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Giantwalkingchair wrote:
I know, and respectfully, these arguments are exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. All about the kills. You can win without wiping things out.

Necrons can win without wiping things out, too. So they have 2 ways to win, and other (nerfed) armies only have 1. And it's harder than it looks. Yes, my ork blobs are objective secured, and can take the mid objective at the end of turn 5. There is very litlte chance for them to filter through all the flayed ones, tomb blades, wraiths and ghost arks to get to the far objectives. How would such a blob ever get back there? If I try deff koptas, bikes, or other fast things, they aren't objective secured and so they can only contest, for one turn, then they die.

Oh, and my brilliant plan to grab objectives on turn five only works if the game actually ends on turn 5. If it goes on, then the tomb blades/flayed ones/wraiths/arks get to fire point blank at the wide open ork boyz in the top of turn 6...the only reason they are open is because they had to try to steal the game with a mad dash on turn 5.

How is that fun for the ork player? CSM?
   
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 Tactical_Spam wrote:
A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

They are 1 point cheaper.

Discounting the Decurion and comparing them to an IH Tactical Marine, the Marine is more durable against AP4,5,6 and - while the warrior is more durable against AP 1, 2 and 3.
The Warrior is vulnerable to Fear (yes I know this doesn't mean much) and Sweeping Advances while the Marine is not, however the Warrior has a higher Leadership. (not that Morale really matters in 40k outside of combat anymore).
The Marine has both Frag and Krak grenades, while the Warrior doesn't.
The Warrior does have gauss, allowing them to wound T8, 9 and 10 on 6s and glance AV 11+ on 6s. However the Marine can purchase a Special Weapon that is not only more likely to wound/glance/penetrate a tank or high-toughness model, but will also have a better AP value (1/2/3) to cause the wound to go unsaved/deal better damage on a pen. Against everything else it is just another boltgun.
The Warrior is only I2, meaning more of them will die in Melee leaving them with less attacks when their Initiative step comes making them more likely to lose combat. This I2 makes them very easy to Sweep as well.

Really, if you discount Decurion it is pretty balanced. The problem is the jump for a 5+++ to a 4+++ is massive and not even free Tanks can match it.
   
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I know I know, and I don't mean to come across a s some elitist "l2p noob", I'm not, I'd be the first to admit to my exceedingly average abilities.
Honestly there's no way I can counter your arguments without seeming like a whiner. I know other codexes have got it tough personally I try to tone down my own lists to suit others cuz if there's one thing I like more than a good game is a close one.

Like I said, I think I'm just frustrated at feeling like the favourite child with the younger siblings crying that they don't get the same love and attention that the older does...I don't mean that in a nasty way.

That's said, I really wouldn't want to see warriors costed to their mathhammered appropriateness... 30something point warriors? Ouch.
   
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the newest formation have you automatically bring back wiped out warrior squads the next turn? Doesn't sound very fun trying to deal with RP, then having them auto-return anyway.

On the one hand, I see where you're coming from, but on the other hand it IS a game about combat, as well as objectives. If every game against crons boils down to 5+ turns of hide and seek then that seems like it'd get boring in a hurry.

Also, internet high-5 for a fellow Paul.
   
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Giantwalkingchair wrote:
That's said, I really wouldn't want to see warriors costed to their mathhammered appropriateness... 30something point warriors? Ouch.

Why not? You would get far more enjoyment out of the game if you had to play it, instead of just "walk forward onto objectives."

And we'd all shut up!
   
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Because it's OP.
   
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Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Like I said, I think I'm just frustrated at feeling like the favourite child with the younger siblings crying that they don't get the same love and attention that the older does...I don't mean that in a nasty way.

Try being the guy that's spent hundreds of dollars on a Chaos Marine army and actually wants to win once in a blue moon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/09 02:59:29




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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

They are 1 point cheaper.

Discounting the Decurion and comparing them to an IH Tactical Marine, the Marine is more durable against AP4,5,6 and - while the warrior is more durable against AP 1, 2 and 3.

Not true.
The marine is more durable against ap 4 weapons only, outside of the decurion only. Against Ap 5 and 6, they are equal (although the necron is cheaper, and won't be taking special weapons that also raises the point cost).
Against Ap 1, 2, 3, the necron warrior is more durable.


With the decurion, the Necron warrior is always more durable than the marine, unless it's AP 4. If they are in 5+ cover, they are roughly equal again at AP 4.
Keep in mind that AP 4 is one of the rarest APs in the game. 2, 3, 5, and 6 are all much more common. Even 1 is seen more than AP 6.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The Warrior is vulnerable to Fear (yes I know this doesn't mean much) and Sweeping Advances while the Marine is not, however the Warrior has a higher Leadership. (not that Morale really matters in 40k outside of combat anymore).

True enough.
Necrons have better units for melee combat, but it is true they can get wiped if they lose combat and break.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The Marine has both Frag and Krak grenades, while the Warrior doesn't.

A minor thing. Frag is only useful if marines assault, which is rare. Necrons have gauss, which are a lot better than Krak grenades against most targets.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The Warrior does have gauss, allowing them to wound T8, 9 and 10 on 6s and glance AV 11+ on 6s. However the Marine can purchase a Special Weapon that is not only more likely to wound/glance/penetrate a tank or high-toughness model, but will also have a better AP value (1/2/3) to cause the wound to go unsaved/deal better damage on a pen. Against everything else it is just another boltgun.

Which raises their point cost even higher. A PG or melta nearly costs enough that the squad raises 1 ppm (so expect a marine squad to be really about 16-17 ppm after the two special weapons).
Not to mention that the weapons are specialized and sometimes the regular bolters are useless.
Against tanks, necrons are a lot better for the points unless the marine takes a drop pod and specs for melta, in which case they aren't nearly as good against GMCs. Necrons are okay against most targets.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The Warrior is only I2, meaning more of them will die in Melee leaving them with less attacks when their Initiative step comes making them more likely to lose combat. This I2 makes them very easy to Sweep as well.

True, if they lose combat.
Keep in mind that, generally speaking, the necron army has much better melee units than the marines do overall (wraiths against...bike squad with character?).
With a Decurion, the necrons are much tougher defensively against most targets. With their high leadership, you really need to win by 2 or more to see a break.

Against a lot of units, speaking as a wolves player, I'd much rather kill 8 marines with my TWC and catch them after breaking them so I'm safe on their turn, than sweep the necrons.
I know that seems really stupid (because it is) but its sadly how the rules function. ATSKNF is a weakness against the stronger CC units that will kill 10 marines in 2 turns of combat.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Really, if you discount Decurion it is pretty balanced. The problem is the jump for a 5+++ to a 4+++ is massive and not even free Tanks can match it.

The RP mechanic is good by itself, but Decurion pushes it over the edge.

But really looking at warriors are pointless. Warriors in general aren't want make the necrons scary, just like tacticals aren't why people are saying that the marine codex is top tier.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/09 03:00:08


 
   
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Akiasura wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

They are 1 point cheaper.

Discounting the Decurion and comparing them to an IH Tactical Marine, the Marine is more durable against AP4,5,6 and - while the warrior is more durable against AP 1, 2 and 3.

Not true.
The marine is more durable against ap 4 weapons only, outside of the decurion only. Against Ap 5 and 6, they are equal (although the necron is cheaper, and won't be taking special weapons that also raises the point cost).
Against Ap 1, 2, 3, the necron warrior is more durable.


With the decurion, the Necron warrior is always more durable than the marine, unless it's AP 4. If they are in 5+ cover, they are roughly equal again at AP 4.
Keep in mind that AP 4 is one of the rarest APs in the game. 2, 3, 5, and 6 are all much more common. Even 1 is seen more than AP 6.


Notice how I specifically said that I wasn't including the Decurion and that I was comparing it to an Iron Hands Tactical Marine? (ie. FnP(6+))

And I was responding to a post about Necron Warriors, hence why I didn't mention Flayed Ones or Wraiths. Those 2 units ARE too strong, but then so are gravcents and arguably gravbike command squads.
As a mechanic by itself, RP isn't OP and compared to a tactical marine, the Warrior is pretty balanced points-wise. You could argue it deserves to be 14 or even 15 or 16 points but that's about it. They certain't aren't worth 30 points. The problem is the Decurion and some of its formations giving a massive power boost and 2/3 units being too powerful for their own good.

Gauss as a mechanic exists because Necrons lack hard anti-tank for the most part. Without Gauss they'd have to rely on Triarch Stalkers and Heavy Destroyers to destroy AV13+ with any reliability, or to even scratch AV14 from range. Space Marines can take ranged hard AT across multiple units whether they be Scouts, Tacticals, Devastators, Cents, Sternguard, Bikes, Command Squads... etc. Necrons can't and without Gauss would be severely limited when it comes to AT.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/09 03:18:40


 
   
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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
A necron warrior is more durable, cheaper and has better standard weaponry than a marine for the low downside of Initiative 2

They are 1 point cheaper.

Discounting the Decurion and comparing them to an IH Tactical Marine, the Marine is more durable against AP4,5,6 and - while the warrior is more durable against AP 1, 2 and 3.

Not true.
The marine is more durable against ap 4 weapons only, outside of the decurion only. Against Ap 5 and 6, they are equal (although the necron is cheaper, and won't be taking special weapons that also raises the point cost).
Against Ap 1, 2, 3, the necron warrior is more durable.


With the decurion, the Necron warrior is always more durable than the marine, unless it's AP 4. If they are in 5+ cover, they are roughly equal again at AP 4.
Keep in mind that AP 4 is one of the rarest APs in the game. 2, 3, 5, and 6 are all much more common. Even 1 is seen more than AP 6.


Notice how I specifically said that I wasn't including the Decurion and that I was comparing it to an Iron Hands Tactical Marine? (ie. FnP(6+))

I did notice the decurion (you'll notice I mention both, since many posters are specifically mentioning the decurion). I did not notice the IH, my mistake.
I think it's a little unfair to not include the decurion (+1 FnP essentially) but include the IH chapter tactics (+1 FnP, essentially) personally, but alright. Especially since it's not common to see the IH CT, but the decurion is pretty common, being such a good choice.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

And I was responding to a post about Necron Warriors, hence why I didn't mention Flayed Ones or Wraiths. Those 2 units ARE too strong, but then so are gravcents and arguably gravbike command squads.

I thought the space made it clear I was making a separate point in the same post. Sorry.
I don't understand why anyone is discussing warriors or tactical marines when discussing warrior RP. It's not a huge deal on them, though its certainly annoying.
It's the wraiths and other excellent units that make the RP annoying.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

As a mechanic by itself, RP isn't OP and compared to a tactical marine, the Warrior is pretty balanced points-wise.

It'd be hard to argue either way. A necron would probably be 1 point over costed if the RP was dropped, and I think other dexes pay a lot for 5+ FnP.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

You could argue it deserves to be 14 or even 15 or 16 points but that's about it. They certain't aren't worth 30 points.

Whoa, though is a bit of a slippery slope. We went from 16 to 30 in one jump.
I think a necron warrior can be worth 16-17 points. Their ability to target anything and get some work done, combined with the toughness, makes them a lot better than tacticals.
The decurion should raise their points 1-2 per model (essentially 10% of the models cost, for every model that benefits from the formation imo), but that's wildly off topic.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

The problem is the Decurion and some of its formations giving a massive power boost and 2/3 units being too powerful for their own good.

True. Warriors possibly being undercosted isn't going to break the dex.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Gauss as a mechanic exists because Necrons lack hard anti-tank for the most part. Without Gauss they'd have to rely on Triarch Stalkers and Heavy Destroyers to destroy AV13+ with any reliability, or to even scratch AV14 from range.

Well, wraiths do just fine against most tanks in melee. Scarabs use to be good, spyders wouldn't be bad, lychguard could do in a pinch, but for the most part I think your point is mostly true.
But gauss being needed by the army doesn't impact how strong of a rule it is. A rule that says "Your basic gun will never be worthless, and in a few cases, is actually good" is very good on your cheap basic warrior. I don't think it's as good as bladestorm, but it's probably the 2nd best basic weapon (I don't consider scat lasers a basic weapon despite being spammed on troopers).

Oddly enough, I think necron come in 2nd for best army wide rules. Eldar battle focus is better than RP, but it's also better than chapter tactics, and eldar blade storm is arguably better than gauss (though bladestorm might not play well in the necron army...if heavy tanks made a come back that is).

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Space Marines can take ranged hard AT across multiple units whether they be Scouts, Tacticals, Devastators, Cents, Sternguard, Bikes, Command Squads... etc. Necrons can't and without Gauss would be severely limited when it comes to AT.

Well, let's be real, marines nowadays take grav for take out tanks. Cents with split fire can destroy 2 tanks a turn with ease.
PG and melta aren't bad, but command squads aren't going after tanks in a major way.
   
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There's no denying the power of Decurion. But what do we get from just a stock standard CAD necron army? Is the codex really that so horribly op? Never been a fan of formation in normal 40k myself, they belong in apoc imo.
   
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Giantwalkingchair wrote:
There's no denying the power of Decurion. But what do we get from just a stock standard CAD necron army? Is the codex really that so horribly op? Never been a fan of formation in normal 40k myself, they belong in apoc imo.

Well, it certainly goes down in power a lot.
But you still have an excellent stable of units. Wraiths are still good, flayed ones are nice, lychguard aren't terrible, destroyers are good too.

It won't stand up there with the most competitive options, but it will still do a number on the weaker dexes.
   
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Liche Priest Hierophant







I didn't include Decurion because it's a detachment. Chapter Tactics is something marines inherently have. I agree that Decurion is broken as all feth. But if we assume Decurion then it's only fair to assume that the Marines will have Doctrines and a free Drop Pod/Rhino/Razorback in addition to ObjSec

Admittedly, I was cherry-picking the defensive CT... but as you said it's one of the less common ones when it comes to competitive play and that's because most of the others are better. (Which kinda reinforces my point if I'm picking one of the bad choices)

The 30pts figure came because someone earlier in the thread mention Warriors being balanced at 30pts each... Which is absurd.

I meant to say at range there with the AT part, whoops. But yes, Wraiths are great at taking them out in Melee.

I do agree that Gauss Flayer are the 2nd best basic weapon, but I do think they're massively overrated among many players. It takes 10 gauss shots to do 1 HP to a tank assuming it has no cover - which is really good, don't get me wrong - but many people seem to act like it's more than that and that those 10 shots will destroy a Land Raider every game.
   
Made in au
Repentia Mistress





So really what were seeing is a solid army if taken as CAD not the strongest but definitely not the weakest. At its core its essentially alright. The real issue is the formations which ultimately are optional which really means, the problem is people going for the nearest shiniest thing they can get. People are the problem, not the army.

   
 
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