Clarification on rules with "upgraded units."

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**Zarius**

You know, the fact of the matter, Rasko, is that I understand it. The fact that I wouldn't LIKE letting certain things slide from a logical or a logistical stance, or that I would allow OTHER things from that same stance, is completely different from not UNDERSTANDING. I understand nuclear physics, but I let Hollywood slide on using certain words or phrases in completely wrong ways. The fact that I don't picket outside a studio doesn't mean I don't understand. I understand computer science, but I don't call people out every time think they know a LOT more than they do about computers. I ALSO happen to have a fairly good understanding about mechanical engineering, which conflicts with my understanding of game logic. The idea of a Terminator on a SM bike is like the idea of a gorilla on a tricycle made for a toddler: I understand that it might work for a little bit, but eventually the enormous bulk will crush it. So, the reason that I don't LIKE it is that I have two different sets of understanding that conflict with each other.

**Kriswall**

col_impact wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
So in other words, nothing at all. "Replacing" your 5 sniper scouts with 5 camouflaged sniper scouts is just as legal as "replacing" those 5 camouflaged sniper scouts with 4 camouflaged sniper scouts and 1 camouflaged sniper WGPL because both operations are explicitly permitted by the ALE options. I'm glad we finally straightened that out through rigorous reinterpretation and redefinition of the word "upgrade."

Not quite.
You have "upgraded" from 5 sniper scouts with camo to 4 sniper scouts with camo and 1 WGPL. When the WGPL joins the unit, it is not through a direct "promotion", as we've established. But through a unit that has been upgraded. That means that it will come with it's own starting gear, it's own stats, etc, etc. There is no carry-over because there is no "promotion". You have "upgraded" from 5 Sniper Scouts with camo to 4 Sniper Scouts with camo and 1 WGPL.

But you have not answered how we can go from 5 bolter scouts to 5 sniper scouts, and still "carry over" their rifles when we "upgraded" them again with camo cloaks. To be more plain, what is the (rules-based) difference between taking the camo cloak option, the sniper rifle option, and/or the WGPL option? Where in the rules are you drawing the distinction between those options that apparently "carry over" wargear and those that do not?

Huh? There is no sequencing of upgrades. You make a flat final decision of how all of the components of the unit are going to be defined and there is your unit.

There has to be an element of sequencing as some upgrades are "locked" until other upgrades have already been taken. A good example is actually in our fun Wolf Scouts Army List Entry. You can't take the "Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take melta bombs" option until AFTER you've taken the "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader" option. The second must resolve before the first is available. If your intention is to resolve them all simultaneously, then the melta bomb option fails as your unit has no Wolf Guard Pack Leader to give the melta bombs to. The selecting options process literally breaks and many options become unavailable to the initial, unmodified unit if you force the options to be selected simultaneously.

There are numerous, numerous examples of options that have to be taken sequentially to be available. Pick up just about any codex and have a gander.

**col_impact**

Kriswall wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
So in other words, nothing at all. "Replacing" your 5 sniper scouts with 5 camouflaged sniper scouts is just as legal as "replacing" those 5 camouflaged sniper scouts with 4 camouflaged sniper scouts and 1 camouflaged sniper WGPL because both operations are explicitly permitted by the ALE options. I'm glad we finally straightened that out through rigorous reinterpretation and redefinition of the word "upgrade."

Not quite.
You have "upgraded" from 5 sniper scouts with camo to 4 sniper scouts with camo and 1 WGPL. When the WGPL joins the unit, it is not through a direct "promotion", as we've established. But through a unit that has been upgraded. That means that it will come with it's own starting gear, it's own stats, etc, etc. There is no carry-over because there is no "promotion". You have "upgraded" from 5 Sniper Scouts with camo to 4 Sniper Scouts with camo and 1 WGPL.

But you have not answered how we can go from 5 bolter scouts to 5 sniper scouts, and still "carry over" their rifles when we "upgraded" them again with camo cloaks. To be more plain, what is the (rules-based) difference between taking the camo cloak option, the sniper rifle option, and/or the WGPL option? Where in the rules are you drawing the distinction between those options that apparently "carry over" wargear and those that do not?

Huh? There is no sequencing of upgrades. You make a flat final decision of how all of the components of the unit are going to be defined and there is your unit.

There has to be an element of sequencing as some upgrades are "locked" until other upgrades have already been taken. A good example is actually in our fun Wolf Scouts Army List Entry. You can't take the "Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take melta bombs" option until AFTER you've taken the "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader" option. The second must resolve before the first is available. If your intention is to resolve them all simultaneously, then the melta bomb option fails as your unit has no Wolf Guard Pack Leader to give the melta bombs to. The selecting options process literally breaks and many options become unavailable to the initial, unmodified unit if you force the options to be selected simultaneously.

There are numerous, numerous examples of options that have to be taken sequentially to be available. Pick up just about any codex and have a gander.

That's just an upgrade path. You can make selections dependent on some other selection. But there is no sequencing. You don't carry a history. It's all one finalized set of upgraded components that becomes a unit in your army. If you try to submit a selection without fulfilling a dependency then its just an illegal list and you try again.

**Rasko**

Zarius wrote:
The idea of a Terminator on a SM bike is like the idea of a gorilla on a tricycle made for a toddler: I understand that it might work for a little bit, but eventually the enormous bulk will crush it. So, the reason that I don't LIKE it is that I have two different sets of understanding that conflict with each other.

Separate IRL logic with Game Mechanics.

There is no "it might work for a little bit, but eventually the enormous bulk will crush it."
You keep saying you understand the difference, but then you show that you do not.
Not one person is with you on this.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I am not harping or attacking you. This is not personal.
You are just on a completely different plane of reasoning than everyone else.
I have tried explaning this to you. Kriswall has tried too. Honda tried as well.
Please try to understand what we are saying and how it differs from what you are saying.

**Kriswall**

col_impact wrote:
Kriswall wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
So in other words, nothing at all. "Replacing" your 5 sniper scouts with 5 camouflaged sniper scouts is just as legal as "replacing" those 5 camouflaged sniper scouts with 4 camouflaged sniper scouts and 1 camouflaged sniper WGPL because both operations are explicitly permitted by the ALE options. I'm glad we finally straightened that out through rigorous reinterpretation and redefinition of the word "upgrade."

Not quite.
You have "upgraded" from 5 sniper scouts with camo to 4 sniper scouts with camo and 1 WGPL. When the WGPL joins the unit, it is not through a direct "promotion", as we've established. But through a unit that has been upgraded. That means that it will come with it's own starting gear, it's own stats, etc, etc. There is no carry-over because there is no "promotion". You have "upgraded" from 5 Sniper Scouts with camo to 4 Sniper Scouts with camo and 1 WGPL.

But you have not answered how we can go from 5 bolter scouts to 5 sniper scouts, and still "carry over" their rifles when we "upgraded" them again with camo cloaks. To be more plain, what is the (rules-based) difference between taking the camo cloak option, the sniper rifle option, and/or the WGPL option? Where in the rules are you drawing the distinction between those options that apparently "carry over" wargear and those that do not?

Huh? There is no sequencing of upgrades. You make a flat final decision of how all of the components of the unit are going to be defined and there is your unit.

There has to be an element of sequencing as some upgrades are "locked" until other upgrades have already been taken. A good example is actually in our fun Wolf Scouts Army List Entry. You can't take the "Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take melta bombs" option until AFTER you've taken the "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader" option. The second must resolve before the first is available. If your intention is to resolve them all simultaneously, then the melta bomb option fails as your unit has no Wolf Guard Pack Leader to give the melta bombs to. The selecting options process literally breaks and many options become unavailable to the initial, unmodified unit if you force the options to be selected simultaneously.

There are numerous, numerous examples of options that have to be taken sequentially to be available. Pick up just about any codex and have a gander.

That's just an upgrade path. You can make selections dependent on some other selection. But there is no sequencing. You don't carry a history. It's all one finalized set of upgraded components that becomes a unit in your army. If you try to submit a selection without fulfilling a dependency then its just an illegal list and you try again.

Oh... ok, so you'll agree to the concept of an upgrade path. A path is literally something you travel along to get from point A to point B. I can work with that. I know you keep coming back to dependencies, yet this concept simply doesn't exist in the rules. There is no restriction saying that a WGPL can't have a Sniper Rifle. You simply have to follow the correct upgrade path. The first step on this upgrade path is to have a Wolf Scout swap his Bolter for a Sniper Rifle. The second step on this path is to have the same Wolf Scout be upgraded to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. I have violated no rules and there is no instruction/permission telling me to remove the previously selected Sniper Rifle. To repeat something you seem to be missing... THERE... IS... NO... RULE... THAT... A... WGPL... CAN'T... HAVE... A... SNIPER... RIFLE.

**Zarius**

Rasko, if I was on a different plane of reasoning, I WOULDN'T allow it. I REALIZE that my mechanical knowledge is RL, and that the rules for WK40K isn't. The fact that you DO keep harping on it tells me that it IS personal attack, because the fact that I'm willing to concede the point means that even though I DON'T like it, I'm ABLE to separate the real world from a game, and I'm able to separate game logic from real life logic. If this is acceptable to you, kindly drop it. If you don't find this acceptable, kindly drop this crap anyways.

**col_impact**

Kriswall wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Kriswall wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
So in other words, nothing at all. "Replacing" your 5 sniper scouts with 5 camouflaged sniper scouts is just as legal as "replacing" those 5 camouflaged sniper scouts with 4 camouflaged sniper scouts and 1 camouflaged sniper WGPL because both operations are explicitly permitted by the ALE options. I'm glad we finally straightened that out through rigorous reinterpretation and redefinition of the word "upgrade."

Not quite.
You have "upgraded" from 5 sniper scouts with camo to 4 sniper scouts with camo and 1 WGPL. When the WGPL joins the unit, it is not through a direct "promotion", as we've established. But through a unit that has been upgraded. That means that it will come with it's own starting gear, it's own stats, etc, etc. There is no carry-over because there is no "promotion". You have "upgraded" from 5 Sniper Scouts with camo to 4 Sniper Scouts with camo and 1 WGPL.

But you have not answered how we can go from 5 bolter scouts to 5 sniper scouts, and still "carry over" their rifles when we "upgraded" them again with camo cloaks. To be more plain, what is the (rules-based) difference between taking the camo cloak option, the sniper rifle option, and/or the WGPL option? Where in the rules are you drawing the distinction between those options that apparently "carry over" wargear and those that do not?

Huh? There is no sequencing of upgrades. You make a flat final decision of how all of the components of the unit are going to be defined and there is your unit.

There has to be an element of sequencing as some upgrades are "locked" until other upgrades have already been taken. A good example is actually in our fun Wolf Scouts Army List Entry. You can't take the "Wolf Guard Pack Leader may take melta bombs" option until AFTER you've taken the "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to Wolf Guard Pack Leader" option. The second must resolve before the first is available. If your intention is to resolve them all simultaneously, then the melta bomb option fails as your unit has no Wolf Guard Pack Leader to give the melta bombs to. The selecting options process literally breaks and many options become unavailable to the initial, unmodified unit if you force the options to be selected simultaneously.

There are numerous, numerous examples of options that have to be taken sequentially to be available. Pick up just about any codex and have a gander.

That's just an upgrade path. You can make selections dependent on some other selection. But there is no sequencing. You don't carry a history. It's all one finalized set of upgraded components that becomes a unit in your army. If you try to submit a selection without fulfilling a dependency then its just an illegal list and you try again.

Oh... ok, so you'll agree to the concept of an upgrade path. A path is literally something you travel along to get from point A to point B. I can work with that. I know you keep coming back to dependencies, yet this concept simply doesn't exist in the rules. There is no restriction saying that a WGPL can't have a Sniper Rifle. You simply have to follow the correct upgrade path. The first step on this upgrade path is to have a Wolf Scout swap his Bolter for a Sniper Rifle. The second step on this path is to have the same Wolf Scout be upgraded to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader. I have violated no rules and there is no instruction/permission telling me to remove the previously selected Sniper Rifle. To repeat something you seem to be missing... THERE... IS... NO... RULE... THAT... A... WGPL... CAN'T... HAVE... A... SNIPER... RIFLE.

You have that the wrong way. A WGPL cannot select a sniper rifle. There are no steps along the path. Just a path resolved as legal or illegal upon submission.

Remember there is no history here, just a set of upgrades taken that must be finalized into a legal combination.

**Charistoph**

col_impact wrote:
That's just an upgrade path. You can make selections dependent on some other selection. But there is no sequencing. You don't carry a history. It's all one finalized set of upgraded components that becomes a unit in your army. If you try to submit a selection without fulfilling a dependency then its just an illegal list and you try again.

I believe Space Marine Bikes would disagree, or at least they did in their 6th Ed format.

In order for a biker Marine to take a Special Weapon, it traded its chainsword or Boltguns. However, it only came with a Bike and a Pistol. It was soon Errata'd to allow a Biker to exchange his Pistol for a Chainsword.

I cannot recall the specifics, as I am away from those sources, but that is the rough idea.

Still, no order of operations is given or required in the rules, and nothing states anything about Wargear transferring or not transferring when the model changes from one profile to another. Anything at this point is pure House Rule in regards to this.

However, because of that, my default position without discussion with the opponent is to look at what the final result is, and not any level of order and Wargear not transferring when a model changes profiles. This means my old Crusader Squad could only get 9 Neophytes if it had a Sword Brother. But better that than a player who is sore about it for an entire game.

**HondaDaBest**

Zarius wrote:
Rasko, if I was on a different plane of reasoning, I WOULDN'T allow it. I REALIZE that my mechanical knowledge is RL, and that the rules for WK40K isn't. The fact that you DO keep harping on it tells me that it IS personal attack, because the fact that I'm willing to concede the point means that even though I DON'T like it, I'm ABLE to separate the real world from a game, and I'm able to separate game logic from real life logic. If this is acceptable to you, kindly drop it. If you don't find this acceptable, kindly drop this crap anyways.

That's because you keep saying you understand it. And then say stuff like this immediately after...

Zarius wrote:
I've SEEN terminator armor. I've SEEN biker models. The Terminator armor is larger than the bike. RL or no, it wouldn't work. Now, that (again) said, I'd allow it to be used as a weapon. Meaning, I'd allow the terminator to pick it up and hit people with it.

Zarius wrote:
The idea of a Terminator on a SM bike is like the idea of a gorilla on a tricycle made for a toddler: I understand that it might work for a little bit, but eventually the enormous bulk will crush it.

What kind of conclusion is he supposed to make? Do you understand it or not?...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
IRL logic should not be a factor at all in your decisions

**col_impact**

Charistoph wrote:
col_impact wrote:
That's just an upgrade path. You can make selections dependent on some other selection. But there is no sequencing. You don't carry a history. It's all one finalized set of upgraded components that becomes a unit in your army. If you try to submit a selection without fulfilling a dependency then its just an illegal list and you try again.

I believe Space Marine Bikes would disagree, or at least they did in their 6th Ed format.

In order for a biker Marine to take a Special Weapon, it traded its chainsword or Boltguns. However, it only came with a Bike and a Pistol. It was soon Errata'd to allow a Biker to exchange his Pistol for a Chainsword.

I cannot recall the specifics, as I am away from those sources, but that is the rough idea.

Still, no order of operations is given or required in the rules, and nothing states anything about Wargear transferring or not transferring when the model changes from one profile to another. Anything at this point is pure House Rule in regards to this.

However, because of that, my default position without discussion with the opponent is to look at what the final result is, and not any level of order and Wargear not transferring when a model changes profiles. This means my old Crusader Squad could only get 9 Neophytes if it had a Sword Brother. But better that than a player who is sore about it for an entire game.

The rules make no mention of order of operations so there isn't any. Everything works fine as one flat selection where you take care of dependencies in the final flat submission. Simple.

Otherwise you get people trying to avoid dependencies by using a notion of sequencing or history which is nowhere in the rules.

So unless people can find rules which allow them to order their upgrades in order to avoid dependencies then they can't do it.

It's a permissive ruleset so unless you have rules allowing you to use sequence and history to purchase upgrades you can't do it and must follow my way which requires no special permission.

**Zarius**

Honda, you said you were leaving this conversation. So, how about you stop talking now. BECAUSE WHETHER OR NOT I PERSONALLY LIKE SOMETHING IS COMPLETELY SEPARATE FROM WHETHER OR NOT I'M WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT. For example, I don't like your clear intellectual dystopia, and yet I still acknowledge the fact that you are a human being. I'm not a republican, after all.

**HondaDaBest**

Where did I say I was leaving the discussion. I said that I had given up trying to discuss the rules with you specifically.

Because you have shown that you do not care about the rules at all.
Well, I shouldn't say 'not care'. I should say not understand the difference between IRL logic and game mechanics.

**Creeperman**

Rasko wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
But you have not answered how we can go from 5 bolter scouts to 5 sniper scouts, and still "carry over" their rifles when we "upgraded" them again with camo cloaks. To be more plain, what is the (rules-based) difference between taking the camo cloak option, the sniper rifle option, and/or the WGPL option? Where in the rules are you drawing the distinction between those options that apparently "carry over" wargear and those that do not?

•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.

This tells us that the Unit Composition of a unit will change after upgrades are taken. When you upgrade a unit, the unit composition has changed.
So take a basic unit of Wolf Scouts. That is 5 Wolf Scouts. You choose to upgrade 4 of them to have Sniper Rifles.
Since we know the unit composition will change after an upgrade has been taken, the unit composition after this upgrade will be, 5 Wolf Scouts (4 with Snipers).
You decide you want to upgrade all of them with camo as well as 4 with Snipers instead. The unit composition after this upgrade is 5 Wolf Scouts (all with Camo, 4 with Snipers).

A unit is comprised of models. While these are all model upgrades, the game classifies them as an upgrade to the unit. We know this because of my previous argument.

Spoiler:

What does the Codex mean when it says "upgrade"? Does it mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'? "Upgrade" can mean both of these things. There is an impasse of logic here. We can't move on without knowing which one the Codex means by "upgrade". It is not something that you can pick and choose to mean whatever you like. This goes for both sides of the argument. We can't choose the definition to fit our needs. Since it can mean both things, which lead to directly contradicting paths, we have to find what the Codex means by "upgrade".
Do you agree so far? "Upgrade" can literally both mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'. Which lead to opposite interpretations.
What does the codex mean when it says "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to WGPL". The question we are trying to figure out is, does it mean 'promote' or 'replace'.
So which one does it mean?

There is a sentence that has been repeated quite often.
•Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.
We find some information here on how to proceed. It wants us to add upgrades to the unit. It does not say "add to the model". Which naturally means that it is not a promotion of an existing model. The unit has been upgraded. It went from 5 Wolf Scouts, to an upgrade of 4 Wolf Scouts and WGPL. It did not do this via a 'model promotion' method.

The unit has been upgraded from 5 Wolf Scouts to 5 Wolf Scouts, 4 of them with Snipers. From there, decide you want 4 snipers and all camo, you have upgraded the unit from 5 Wolf Scouts to 5 Wolf Scouts, all with Camo, and 4 with Snipers.
So you decide to upgrade a Wolf Scout with Camo and a Sniper Rifle to a WGPL. As above, it is not an upgrade through a 'model promotion'.
There is an entry for the WGPL, for you to use. There is no carry-over from the Wolf Scout because it is not a 'model promotion'.
You have "upgraded' the unit from 5 Wolf Scouts to 4 Wolf Scouts, 3 of them with Snipers, 4 of them with Camo, and 1 WGPL (with any wanted upgrades).

We could not have even progressed to this point without understanding what the game meant by "upgrade" because it would lead to two, directly contradicting paths.
Don't get me wrong. If the Codex says somewhere that "upgrade" means "promote", there can definitely be an argument to be made. I could not find anything that said so.
We could only find something that it meant the other.

I realised I described it in a slightly confusing way that seems to point to 'promotions' so I fixed it. I was referring to IRL thought process decisions and have corrected it.
From a game point of view, it would go from 5 Wolf Scouts to final compoistion.

OK, so we've boiled the argument back down to "all upgrades are simultaneous" of a few pages ago. I have some problems with that, namely Terminator armor and wargear choices.

But something else occurred to me when re-reading your post. Let's back up a little bit and examine your definition of "upgrade." It is true that the BRB and Codices say "add to the unit," but where is your permission to "remove?" If you are equating "upgrade" with "replacement," a necessary precondition is the removal of the old entity (model, weapon, etc.). In the case of weapons, this is made explicit; you are told to "replace his [the model's] boltgun with" the sniper rifle/shotgun/CCW/whatever. In the case of camo cloaks, you are not told to remove or replace anything; it's a straight addition. When dealing with the wargear lists, you are again (explicitly) instructed to replace existing weapons. But in the case of the WGPL, you are told to "upgrade" a model, without being told to remove or replace it. This same wording is used in the Rune Priest's option to "be upgraded to Psyker (Mastery Level 2)," and again in the Dreadnought's "May be upgraded to be a Venerable Dreadnought" option.

It seems clear to me that "upgrade" is being assigned a specific meaning, namely "carry out the specified action on the specified target model," whether it be profile changes, special rules, or wargear changes, as explicitly stated by the option in question.

**Zarius**

Charistoph,

"Special Weapons
A model may replace his Melee weapon or boltgun with one of the following:"

"WARGEAR:
• Power armour
• Bolt pistol
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
• Space Marine bike"

"Any model may replace his bolt pistol with a chainsword…free"

"Up to two Space Marine Bikers may each take one item from the Special Weapons list."

I believe this is the list of things you refer to.

**HondaDaBest**

Charistoph wrote:
However, because of that, my default position without discussion with the opponent is to look at what the final result is, and not any level of order and Wargear not transferring when a model changes profiles. This means my old Crusader Squad could only get 9 Neophytes if it had a Sword Brother. But better that than a player who is sore about it for an entire game.

Exactly. And that is pretty much what everyone around the world has been playing with.
This can be seen because if you use the promotion theory, you can have Terminator Armour Bikers!

I have never seen or heard of a single person trying to have Terminator Armour Bikers.

**Zarius**

That's from the 7th ed BA codex.

**Creeperman**

And as an aside, Zarius, please dial it down a notch. Switch to decaf if it'll help. We're only talking about little plastic men here, not the fate of the world. Even if someone is wrong on the Internet, it's not worth working yourself into a coronary over.

**Zarius**

That would be, Honda, because of the "logic" theory. If there's a reason that a Terminator has specific rules against taking a bike, then there's a reason for it (whether you want my RL explanation or if you just go with the generic "it would be bloody OP" answer), and thus the specific rule would be reversed as well. But that's just a logic stand point.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Creeper, the issue isn't the little plastic men. The issue is these two harping on me over not LIKING something. Not that I'm unwilling to apply my own logic to rules that I don't like, because I am. JUST the fact that I don't like it.

**HondaDaBest**

By saying "logic" theory. I sincerely hope that you are referring to a game mechanic and not IRL logic...

It isn't clear... But I really hope that is the case.

**Zarius**

Honda, I literally just said that, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - ALPHARIUS]

**col_impact**

Creeperman wrote:
Rasko wrote:
Creeperman wrote:
But you have not answered how we can go from 5 bolter scouts to 5 sniper scouts, and still "carry over" their rifles when we "upgraded" them again with camo cloaks. To be more plain, what is the (rules-based) difference between taking the camo cloak option, the sniper rifle option, and/or the WGPL option? Where in the rules are you drawing the distinction between those options that apparently "carry over" wargear and those that do not?

•Unit Composition: This section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before any upgrades have been taken.

This tells us that the Unit Composition of a unit will change after upgrades are taken. When you upgrade a unit, the unit composition has changed.
So take a basic unit of Wolf Scouts. That is 5 Wolf Scouts. You choose to upgrade 4 of them to have Sniper Rifles.
Since we know the unit composition will change after an upgrade has been taken, the unit composition after this upgrade will be, 5 Wolf Scouts (4 with Snipers).
You decide you want to upgrade all of them with camo as well as 4 with Snipers instead. The unit composition after this upgrade is 5 Wolf Scouts (all with Camo, 4 with Snipers).

A unit is comprised of models. While these are all model upgrades, the game classifies them as an upgrade to the unit. We know this because of my previous argument.

Spoiler:

What does the Codex mean when it says "upgrade"? Does it mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'? "Upgrade" can mean both of these things. There is an impasse of logic here. We can't move on without knowing which one the Codex means by "upgrade". It is not something that you can pick and choose to mean whatever you like. This goes for both sides of the argument. We can't choose the definition to fit our needs. Since it can mean both things, which lead to directly contradicting paths, we have to find what the Codex means by "upgrade".
Do you agree so far? "Upgrade" can literally both mean 'promoted/transformed' or 'replaced'. Which lead to opposite interpretations.
What does the codex mean when it says "May upgrade one Wolf Scout to WGPL". The question we are trying to figure out is, does it mean 'promote' or 'replace'.
So which one does it mean?

There is a sentence that has been repeated quite often.
•Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.
We find some information here on how to proceed. It wants us to add upgrades to the unit. It does not say "add to the model". Which naturally means that it is not a promotion of an existing model. The unit has been upgraded. It went from 5 Wolf Scouts, to an upgrade of 4 Wolf Scouts and WGPL. It did not do this via a 'model promotion' method.

The unit has been upgraded from 5 Wolf Scouts to 5 Wolf Scouts, 4 of them with Snipers. From there, decide you want 4 snipers and all camo, you have upgraded the unit from 5 Wolf Scouts to 5 Wolf Scouts, all with Camo, and 4 with Snipers.
So you decide to upgrade a Wolf Scout with Camo and a Sniper Rifle to a WGPL. As above, it is not an upgrade through a 'model promotion'.
There is an entry for the WGPL, for you to use. There is no carry-over from the Wolf Scout because it is not a 'model promotion'.
You have "upgraded' the unit from 5 Wolf Scouts to 4 Wolf Scouts, 3 of them with Snipers, 4 of them with Camo, and 1 WGPL (with any wanted upgrades).

We could not have even progressed to this point without understanding what the game meant by "upgrade" because it would lead to two, directly contradicting paths.
Don't get me wrong. If the Codex says somewhere that "upgrade" means "promote", there can definitely be an argument to be made. I could not find anything that said so.
We could only find something that it meant the other.

I realised I described it in a slightly confusing way that seems to point to 'promotions' so I fixed it. I was referring to IRL thought process decisions and have corrected it.
From a game point of view, it would go from 5 Wolf Scouts to final compoistion.

OK, so we've boiled the argument back down to "all upgrades are simultaneous" of a few pages ago. I have some problems with that, namely Terminator armor and wargear choices.

But something else occurred to me when re-reading your post. Let's back up a little bit and examine your definition of "upgrade." It is true that the BRB and Codices say "add to the unit," but where is your permission to "remove?" If you are equating "upgrade" with "replacement," a necessary precondition is the removal of the old entity (model, weapon, etc.). In the case of weapons, this is made explicit; you are told to "replace his [the model's] boltgun with" the sniper rifle/shotgun/CCW/whatever. In the case of camo cloaks, you are not told to remove or replace anything; it's a straight addition. When dealing with the wargear lists, you are again (explicitly) instructed to replace existing weapons. But in the case of the WGPL, you are told to "upgrade" a model, without being told to remove or replace it. This same wording is used in the Rune Priest's option to "be upgraded to Psyker (Mastery Level 2)," and again in the Dreadnought's "May be upgraded to be a Venerable Dreadnought" option.

It seems clear to me that "upgrade" is being assigned a specific meaning, namely "carry out the specified action on the specified target model," whether it be profile changes, special rules, or wargear changes, as explicitly stated by the option in question.

There is no history or order of operations. There is no place you can sweep dependencies under the rug and pretend they are not there. Everything is a flat selection. If you now have a WPGL you cannot have a sniper rifle selected. Having the sniper rifle selected is dependent on you having a scout.

**Zarius**

Col, do me a favor. I know it's in the 7th ed Blood Angels manual, so tell me how a Biker takes a Special Weapon. What trade is he required to make.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, the issue doesn't exist in the Space Wolves manual, so don't bother using that.

**col_impact**

Zarius wrote:
Col, do me a favor. I know it's in the 7th ed Blood Angels manual, so tell me how a Biker takes a Special Weapon. What trade is he required to make.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, the issue doesn't exist in the Space Wolves manual, so don't bother using that.

I am sure it involves a set of dependencies and I have already accounted for that. Once the player accounts for all dependencies he legally has a Biker with a Special Weapon in his army.

**HondaDaBest**

Zarius wrote:
Col, do me a favor. I know it's in the 7th ed Blood Angels manual, so tell me how a Biker takes a Special Weapon. What trade is he required to make.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, the issue doesn't exist in the Space Wolves manual, so don't bother using that.

• Up to two Space Marine Bikers may each take one item from the Special Weapons list.

What are you even talking about...

**Zarius**

Honda, what do they have to TRADE for those special weapons. It's up at the top of the actual unit listings, above HQs, right under the title of Special Weapons

**HondaDaBest**

You have upgraded from a Biker without a specialist weapon to a Biker with a specialist weapon.........

**Creeperman**

col_impact wrote:
There is no history or order of operations. There is no place you can sweep dependencies under the rug and pretend they are not there. Everything is a flat selection. If you now have a WPGL you cannot have a sniper rifle selected. Having the sniper rifle selected is dependent on you having a scout.

Leaving aside the fact that you can't substantiate that statement with rules, it's not even internally consistent. You have a scout. Five of them, in fact. They all took sniper rifles. Some of them also took other stuff. Sounds like we're in agreement that everything's kosher.

At least until you tell me I'm incorrect and move the goalposts yet again, anyway.

**Zarius**

That's not what I asked. Under the Special Weapons header that lists what special weapon options can be taken, what does it say is traded for the Special Weapon, other than points?

**HondaDaBest**

Zarius wrote:
That's not what I asked. Under the Special Weapons header that lists what special weapon options can be taken, what does it say is traded for the Special Weapon, other than points?

Its melee weapon or boltgun.....

**Zarius**

OK, NOW, what is the starting wargear that a Biker has.