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 Kanluwen wrote:
What units are these?

Genuinely curious, because the only things I know of are the event tie-in Marine Captains.

This one, for example.

http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P357-00.htm

Or any other character on bike (except a captain AFAIK) that you were allowed to field (and that given how the SM range works is as easy to create as using the proper plastic pieces, even if it's not currently sold as a separate kit on a GW store), like an apothecary, or an ancient for example.

Or dreadnought armed with twin ACs, for example.

There's no "hostile tone". You made a silly comment--it doesn't have to be for a "competitive event" or a "tournament" for someone to want to have the physical item instead of a digital thing that may or may not actually even be right.

Right. Good for you then. There is no point continuing this discussion anyway.

Wonderwolf wrote:

That's true for any and all games and every criticism of any game or company ever voiced on Dakka. Of course there are always ways to pirate around stuff or ignore it entirely.

Ignoring completely optional things that require additional purchases is too difficult for you and proxying an upgrade card is the same as downloading codexes off torrent sites? Seems a bit disingenuous too me.

Mitochondria wrote:
This seems to be untrue because they make Rebellion and that is definitely a board game.

I asked around about this over on the FFG forum. The story appears to be that Hasbro and FFG had a dispute about the SW license regarding board games and as part of the resolution, FFG can no longer make direct sales of Imperial Assault and Rbellion and Hasbro has some kind of distribution rights as to those games, Who knows how true this is, but those games are indeed listed as "not available" on FFG's site.

Mitochondria wrote:
Also, at 30-35mm in size, the miniatures are far too large to field a "Legion".

Also, there is only one war portrayed in the original movie trilogy - hardly "Star Wars."

 Sqorgar wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

That's true for any and all games and every criticism of any game or company ever voiced on Dakka. Of course there are always ways to pirate around stuff or ignore it entirely.

Ignoring completely optional things that require additional purchases is too difficult for you and proxying an upgrade card is the same as downloading codexes off torrent sites? Seems a bit disingenuous too me.

How do you proxy an upgrade card you didn't purchase other than finding it "on the internet" (or, admittedly, having a friend who bought it, which again works for all things GW, PP, Mantic, etc.. too)?

Of course its optional. Anything in any game is optional. The question is, how much of a "hit" do I take in a random pick-up or "local tournament" (i.e. not super competitive, but a place people can play outside of a regular gaming group or if they don't have a reqular club or group) by limiting yourself to a few starter products.

If I take a random starter-box-squadron, or even starter-box-plus-wave-1 squadron to a random pick-up game of X-Wing, you don't get to play much. Your opponent doesn't need a cutting edge competitive list, but a random mix of more recent ships and cards is just many times better by a more significant margin. Doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist in other games too, with "competitive" types punking 12-year old Timmy with his Space Marines. But it's much more intentionally build into FFG's rules-as-driver-of-the-business-philosophy.

Wonderwolf wrote:
How do you proxy an upgrade card you didn't purchase other than finding it "on the internet" (or, admittedly, having a friend who bought it, which again works for all things GW, PP, Mantic, etc.. too)?

Of course its optional. Anything in any game is optional. The question is, how much of a "hit" do I take in a random pick-up or "local tournament" (i.e. not super competitive, but a place people can play outside of a regular gaming group or if they don't have a reqular club or group) by limiting yourself to a few starter products.

If I take a random starter-box-squadron, or even starter-box-plus-wave-1 squadron to a random pick-up game of X-Wing, you don't get to play much. Your opponent doesn't need a cutting edge competitive list, but a random mix of more recent ships and cards is just many times better by a more significant margin. Doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist in other games too, with "competitive" types punking 12-year old Timmy with his Space Marines. But it's much more intentionally build into FFG's rules-as-driver-of-the-business-philosophy.

Is that the case with all of FFG's games? Or only X-Wing? How are things being done with Runewars?

Right now, Oathsworn cav seem to be the "best" unit. They are in the core box. For quite sometime, TIE spam was big in XWing, too.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

What units are these?

Genuinely curious, because the only things I know of are the event tie-in Marine Captains.

White Scars are pretty much unplayable. Moondrakkan is not in the codex for example.

Let's please discuss 40k in any of ten thousand other threads. Thanks!

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:
You can use Gorechosen in AoS and a range of AoS miniatures not in the Gorechosen box for Gorechosen.

What would stop you from using IA figs in Legion?

Presumably (if it's like Descent > Runewars) no rules available for most of them and rules only available in the boxes with the miniatures I'd have to buy again.

True, however I assume that like Xwing, each pack will come with multiple cards for different types of squads. Or it will be like Armada where if you're running multiple identical squadrons you only bring one card. Indeed the Armada fighter packs only give you one card for the generic squadrons, but you get 2 squadrons of each ship type.

I imagine your generic Stormtrooper and Rebel squad would be similar. You'd only need one card, but could run 3 identical squads.

Thus allowing you to use your IA minis as is. Maybe you couldn't use all the characters yet. But nothing would necessarily prevent you from using them as filler. Have one of your rebel squads be made up of all the IA rebel characters. Space them out in your other squads to add variety and make the rebels look more rag tag.

Here's what you need to run a Legion stormtrooper squad:

- mini that is recognizably the NCO
- three or four minis armed with E-11
- mini armed with DLT-19
- mini armed with rocket launcher

Based on the available upgrade slots on the stormtrooper unit you have to pick between the DLT-19 and the rocket as your SAW. There are IA scultps for all of these figs, minus the rocket launcher guy.

No real reason not to use them in friendly games, No real reason to expect to be able to use them in competitive play.

My rule for FFG is "Ignore it for 6 months and see if they actually continue support for it".

Beyond X-Wing they have a pretty awful track record. I'm tired of getting burned on their new games.

RW has a huge amount of support.

 Manchu wrote:
Here's what you need to run a Legion stormtrooper squad:

- mini that is recognizably the NCO
- three or four minis armed with E-11
- mini armed with DLT-19
- mini armed with rocket launcher

Based on the available upgrade slots on the stormtrooper unit you have to pick between the DLT-19 and the rocket as your SAW. There are IA scultps for all of these figs, minus the rocket launcher guy.

No real reason not to use them in friendly games, No real reason to expect to be able to use them in competitive play.

Actually, the DLT-19 and rocket launcher armed minis are optional. You can field a unit without them. But yes, a stormtrooper unit can only have one heavy weapon upgrade.

Are there two or three Rebel special weapon options in the core set?

 Manchu wrote:
Are there two or three Rebel special weapon options in the core set?

Two, Z-6 chain gun and MPL-57 Ion gun. The AT-RT has other options, of course.

Thanks!

Can you explain the wounds threshold number? I heard it called that in the demo vid. I mean the yellow number below the green health number on the unit card.

Just happy there's a new source for in-scale speeder bikes. The existing ones are either "rare" and stupidly expensive (WotC) or not quite the right size (Micro Machines and Titanium).

Manchu wrote:Thanks!

Can you explain the wounds threshold number? I heard it called that in the demo vid. I mean the yellow number below the green health number on the unit card.

That's not the Wound Threshold (the WT is the green number, and which is just that, the amount of wounds a mini has). That's the Courage Value. A unit with a number of suppression tokens equal to or exceeding its courage value is SUPPRESED, while a unit with a number of suppression tokens equal to or exceeding twice its courage value is PANICKED.

A SUPPRESSED unit can perform one less action per activation. A PANICKED unit is still SUPPRESSED, can only perform a single move action (no free actions) and must move as fast as it can towards the nearest edge.

Units usually get suppression tokens from being shot at.

Momotaro wrote:Just happy there's a new source for in-scale speeder bikes. The existing ones are either "rare" and stupidly expensive (WotC) or not quite the right size (Micro Machines and Titanium).

Interesting. I have two WotC speeder bikes, never knew they were valuable ^^.

Ah so Vader cannot be supressed? Darth Irrepressible.

Very useful info!

On the AT-RT and Speeder Bikes cards, there is a different symbol, a kind of gear? what's that about?

This games looks very cool, thanks for all the helpful info!

 Manchu wrote:
Ah so Vader cannot be supressed? Darth Irrepressible.

I suppose that once you murder the love of your life along with (to your knowledge) your unborn children, suffer multiple amputations while being burned alive, and then spend a decade or two in constant pain that it really is unlikely that your average firefight would turn you into more of a Debbie Downer than you already are.

He takes a big weeze and recites, "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggonnit people fear me!"

 Albertorius wrote:

Momotaro wrote:Just happy there's a new source for in-scale speeder bikes. The existing ones are either "rare" and stupidly expensive (WotC) or not quite the right size (Micro Machines and Titanium).

Interesting. I have two WotC speeder bikes, never knew they were valuable ^^.

Oh, very much so. I have 7 of the rebel speederbikes and 9 of the scout speederbikes, most of which were bought as singles when I could snatch em off ebay for a not-crazy price. Don't know the current value, but when I bought them some years back they were usually going for about $25 online since they were only available as rares in the very first set. Not sure if Legion will make them more valuable or less (mine are worthless as collector pieces, I rebased them all and touched up the paintjobs)

For unit upgrade cards, I'm sure people will post them online as they did with X-Wing. It may be an issue at events (or not, depending on TO), but there's no way in hell I'm buying 2 Lambda shuttles just so I can use the darn sensor cards on my B-wings. Same for the unit upgrade cards in Legion, I suspect you'll see scans online if they're as difficult to get as the X-Wing upgrades.

It's a little disheartening to see the scale change from IA, the WotC figs worked great in that game and meant I only had to paint a few figures instead of all the figures and didn't need ot use the same pose for all stormtroopers. Still, the detail looks excellent for PVC plastic, judging by the painting luke video. Might still be worth buying even with how many WotC figs I own.

I was hoping for something more like this - a 6mm-10mm mass battle game. But I'll wait and see.

 Manchu wrote:
Ah so Vader cannot be supressed? Darth Irrepressible.

Very useful info!

Exactly. Vader's Courage Value is "-", which means he doesn't get suppressed or panicked ^_^.

On the AT-RT and Speeder Bikes cards, there is a different symbol, a kind of gear? what's that about?

Resiliance Value. When a vehicle is assigned as many wounds as the Resilience Value the player must roll a red defense die and depending on the die roll it might get one of the following results: damaged, disabled or weapon destroyed.

Same as with courage, a unit with a value of "-" doesn't suffer those effects.

Cooool. I would bet there will be ways to repair them, too.

 Manchu wrote:
Cooool. I would bet there will be ways to repair them, too.

Probably with specialized units.

Wonderwolf wrote:

How do you proxy an upgrade card you didn't purchase other than finding it "on the internet" (or, admittedly, having a friend who bought it, which again works for all things GW, PP, Mantic, etc.. too)?

FFG really doesn't care about proxying cards. They even provide scans of every card in every one of their Living Card Games over at cardgamedb.com and those games are just cards, no miniatures - and there are deck building sites with even better scans available easily. With X-Wing, Runewars, Imperial Assault, and Armada, the wikis for these games have all the upgrade cards scanned in and available. There's no way that FFG doesn't know about these sites, but they've never acted to have them removed. If anything, actually purchasing cardgamedb.com and improving it makes me thing they are all for the practice.

Similarly, Mantic just posted the cards for several of the wave 3 boosters for Walking Dead on their blog and PP makes all the cards free now. Pretty much the only company that requires you to search dark corners of the internet for game rules is GW (and even then, only for 40k).

Of course its optional. Anything in any game is optional. The question is, how much of a "hit" do I take in a random pick-up or "local tournament" (i.e. not super competitive, but a place people can play outside of a regular gaming group or if they don't have a reqular club or group) by limiting yourself to a few starter products.

You must be using some strange definition of miniature games here because pretty much all miniature games require you to expand beyond the starter set even just to reach average game size. If I showed up with just the contents of Dark Imperium, how much of a hit would I take? Like... all the hits, I assume. A core component of miniature games is expanding your army through optional buys. Seems like you are getting upset that something optional doesn't feel optional enough.

The only real legitimate complaint here is when X-Wing forces you to buy a model you don't want or in a faction you don't play in order to get an upgrade card for one you do - and they don't really do that in Runewars. Neutral upgrades are duplicated across faction releases. For instance, the Wind Rune upgrade card is a neutral upgrade found in both the Reanimate Archers box and the Rune Golem box. There may be some lag, such as new neutral cards in the Elves box that haven't yet shown up for the other two factions. Generic factional upgrades unique to one box may potentially show up in multiple faction boxes as well, but there's only like 5 different units available to each faction right now.

 Mezmaron wrote:
I was hoping for something more like this - a 6mm-10mm mass battle game. But I'll wait and see.

Is that Micro Machine AT-STs and some KFC Kid's meal AT-AT giveaways?

I love a good game of Guess the Star Wars Merchandise.

 Grey Templar wrote:

True, however I assume that like Xwing, each pack will come with multiple cards for different types of squads.

I suspect that Legion won't have different types of units/pilots and instead follow an approach like Runewars where you use upgrade cards to swap in new figures, add abilities, and the like so one card will be all you need. Unlike Runewars, you won't have a lack of dials holding you back. However, they did show some Legion models that had a wedge in them to fit their range ruler thing.

Personally, I'm curious to see if I can use my IA models in the West End Games Star Wars Miniatures Battles series. Rather than using static datasheets, you actually build each model's abilities in the game out manually, allowing you to use any and every Star Wars model you have as whatever they are supposed to be.