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It's not the quality of the blaster so much as the guy whose firing it!

In Legion, a unit can take two actions per activation but the only action a unit can take more than once is move. So units that don't move can aim and fire. The aim action allows you to reroll two blank results. Storm troopers can reroll one further blank, So while they have a higher chance of rolling blanks than rebel troopers at first, they also can reroll more dice at the expense of having to take an aim action instead of, for example, move action.

This comes out to rebel troopers being more maneuvaerable, as opposed to just being better shots.

Sining wrote:
Why wouldn't storm troopers have better blasters than rebels?

Both guns were produced by BlasTech, but the E-11 is cheaper and more mass produced, the A280 was heavier and more expensive, but the rebels needed fewer rifles. Also the A280 was fairly common planetary security force rifle during the Republic which would put a good number in the hands of rebels from those worlds.

Sining wrote:
Why wouldn't storm troopers have better blasters than rebels?

You have to hit the target for it to hurt it. Stormtrooper school of shooting.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Though the model scale is larger than I hoped, and the fact that it uses upgrade cards (yes, I was foolish to hope either wouldn't be the case with FFG, but a man can dream), I'm still interested in this. I just hope the average game is no larger than 8-10 units per side, otherwise upgrade cards will get a bit unwieldy on the side table.

I also hope this means we're getting plastic terrain from FFG, would be disappointing if we didn't.

The box includes 8 plastic barricades.

Holy gak that may be the biggest news of all! FFG making plastic terrain ...

 Manchu wrote:
Holy gak that may be the biggest news of all! FFG making plastic terrain ...

Hehe, it's only barricades, it remains to be seen if they will be doing anything else .

BTW, unit leaders are used to determine if the objective the unit is targeting is in cover or not.

"To determine if a unit has cover, the attacker traces an imaginary line between the center of their unit leader’s base and the center of each miniature’s base in the defender. If the line crosses any terrain, the mini is obscured. If at least half the minis in the defender are obscured, the entire unit is treated as obscured and that unit gains cover from the terrain that the imaginary line was traced through. When determining cover, if the attacker’s unit leader is in contact with a piece of terrain, that piece of terrain is ignored when determining if a minis are obscured."

Huh. This seems interesting. I'll be certainly watching this as it develops. What will really cinch it for me is how much the extra troops will be. $15 for 3 guys is way too much...

I know, I know. Weird coming from a 40k player.

I am guessing 25 USD for seven or eight figures.

Obviously, that will also include cards and tokens.

 Manchu wrote:
I am guessing 25 USD for seven or eight figures.

Obviously, that will also include cards and tokens.

Yeah, $25–30 is what I'm guessing.

As to upgrade cards, well, it's about what you've already seen in other FFG games, mostly.

For example, a Stormtrooper unit can get up to 4 upgrade cards, of the Personnel, Heavy Weapons, Gear and Grenades types. These work much the same way as army list options would in a 40k datasheet, really: PERSONNEL allows you to buy additional regular troopers (for the Stormtroopers you'd be able to add an additional stormtrooper for the listed price). HEAVY WEAPONS allow you to add a trooper with a heavy weapon (a DTL-19 or a HH-12 armed trooper). GEAR allows you to get special issue gear (the core has targeting scopes), and finally GRENADES gets you grenades (duh. The core has concussion grenades).

There are other types of upgrades, though, like comms gear or Force cards.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Star Wars miniatures game - will make a stupid amount of money. X-Wing and Armada combined, and then some. Everyone wants to play Darth Vader on the table.

but queue Dakka standard response to ANY announcement: "well if it was only some very specific XYZ I would have spent my life savings on it, but now I'll have to give it a pass"

Models are meh at best.

Upgrade cards, forcing you to keep buying, even units you don't want, just to keep on top of the game.

Proprietary dice.

Already something not from the films.

Vehicles likely to be pricey, when FFG aren't exactly cheap.

It's a pass from me.

All of that sounds reasonable to me except, honestly, I don't get this "stuff not in the films" thing. AT-RTs are canon, Rebels using whatever they can lay their hands on is canon, so a Rebel riding a half-junked old AT-RT seems perfectly in keeping with the IP to me. You can't limit them to only a literal depiction of the things seen in the Original Trilogy films, because the circumstances depicted in those films don't show the full breadth of either the Alliance or the Empire - most of it is space actions and covert special missions, and the only genuine battle is on Hoth where the conditions prevent them from using most of their gear.

Hell the Rebel Commando riding an AT-RT is one of the best things in the set IMO.

Just a little thing that bothers me.

None of the above are reasons for anyone else not to dive on in

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just a little thing that bothers me.

None of the above are reasons for anyone else not to dive on in

Oh I don't expect I will be, I find FFG's CCG-esque business model repugnant and I wasted far too much money on Magic as a teenager to be suckered by the same kind of thing again(at most I'll grab whichever models I like the look of and play them using a sane set of rules), I just found that particular objection a bit odd man.

 Albertorius wrote:


As to upgrade cards, well, it's about what you've already seen in other FFG games, mostly.

Yes. That's the point, isn't it? A lot of "wargamers" had a taste of FFG rules with X-Wing, hence they stay away from FFG.

Fool me once and all that.

Why isn't that a legitimate reason (even if it may not be a reason for you personally)?

I don't mind the cards and dice or mechanics etc - but the models are average. I'm still kicking myself I didn't get the storm troopers when Knight Models stuff was sitting down :(

Wow, what a friggin' salty thread about something people have wanted for a long time. Holy crap, guys.

I personally really like what I've seen here at GenCon. The minis are awesome to hold in-hand (even if they are resin demo models), and I plan on playing a demo today. I'm just bummed as I don't/can't get another board game right now.

Cards are not that big a deal for clutter, as one Stormtrooper card covers an entire squad.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:


As to upgrade cards, well, it's about what you've already seen in other FFG games, mostly.

Yes. That's the point, isn't it? A lot of "wargamers" had a taste of FFG rules with X-Wing, hence they stay away from FFG.

Fool me once and all that.

Why isn't that a legitimate reason (even if it may not be a reason for you personally)?

I... don't know? Not seeing where I've said that.

OTOH, how are upgrade cards are different from options in a list, except for the fact that cards can be added more easily to already existing lists? I don't think they're that different, tbh. Maybe in a competitive environment, but even then with other games you also need to have all the books on hand when you're picking options from multiple ones, so... (for example: let's say you want to play using the new Codex: Space Marines, but you also want to field a dreadnought with linked ACs [or whatever option it's not in the codex but it is in the index, dunno, a chaplain on bike, whatever] to a tournament. You would need to carry both the codex and the index, wouldn't you?).

If anything, carrying just cards might be easier, but I don't think it's really that much of a different business model.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:


As to upgrade cards, well, it's about what you've already seen in other FFG games, mostly.

Yes. That's the point, isn't it? A lot of "wargamers" had a taste of FFG rules with X-Wing, hence they stay away from FFG.

Fool me once and all that.

I don't know of many people who tried X-wing and didn't enjoy it, so if anything the opposite should be true.

 Albertorius wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:


As to upgrade cards, well, it's about what you've already seen in other FFG games, mostly.

Yes. That's the point, isn't it? A lot of "wargamers" had a taste of FFG rules with X-Wing, hence they stay away from FFG.

Fool me once and all that.

Why isn't that a legitimate reason (even if it may not be a reason for you personally)?

I... don't know? Not seeing where I've said that.

OTOH, how are upgrade cards are different from options in a list, except for the fact that cards can be added more easily to already existing lists? I don't think they're that different, tbh. Maybe in a competitive environment, but even then with other games you also need to have all the books on hand when you're picking options from multiple ones, so... (for example: let's say you want to play using the new Codex: Space Marines, but you also want to field a dreadnought with linked ACs [or whatever option it's not in the codex but it is in the index, dunno, a chaplain on bike, whatever] to a tournament. You would need to carry both the codex and the index, wouldn't you?).

Yeah, but the rules for the Dread's linked ACs aren't available only in the Ork Stompa kit as FFG would do it. And I need only one set of rules, even if I field 2 or 3 or 10 Dread's with linked ACs.

But that's a minor quibble.

The point is that the system is set up for FFG to write rules to fill cards to add to new product to incentivise purchase. There're plenty of X-Wing expansions (Heroes of XY, Sabine's Tie, separate X-Wing, TIE-Fighter etc.. blisters replicated from the starter box, etc.. ) which dont actually have a different miniature (paint aside). They mainly sell on the virtue of the cards, and FFG writes (always, always better than the last) new rules just to fill cards that are better than the last set to get you to buy more cards. It's a CCG business model with miniatures as added bonus (and obfuscation for you getting into a CCG).

Also, it's cluttered and bloated. Somebody on the FFG forums did a wordcount of all X-Wing cards available for a single factions (Rebels I believe?) and it comes out at something like a 200 page factionrules book, plain text, no pics, etc.., for a total of 12 to 15 or so different no-options miniatures? Probably less miniature-variety on the actual table than is included in a standard box of GW Tac Marines.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:


I don't know of many people who tried X-wing and didn't enjoy it, so if anything the opposite should be true.

Well, maybe my local experience is just different, though it also appears to be a very frequent point raised on German blogs and forums posting the announcement of Star Wars Legion (so maybe it's a cultural thing of sort, who knows).

 Yodhrin wrote:

All of that sounds reasonable to me except, honestly, I don't get this "stuff not in the films" thing. AT-RTs are canon, Rebels using whatever they can lay their hands on is canon, so a Rebel riding a half-junked old AT-RT seems perfectly in keeping with the IP to me. You can't limit them to only a literal depiction of the things seen in the Original Trilogy films, because the circumstances depicted in those films don't show the full breadth of either the Alliance or the Empire - most of it is space actions and covert special missions, and the only genuine battle is on Hoth where the conditions prevent them from using most of their gear.

Hell the Rebel Commando riding an AT-RT is one of the best things in the set IMO.

I was super happy to see the AT-RT. Here's hoping it shows up in Star Wars: Battlefront II as a Rebel piece as well, since otherwise we're left with only starfighters and snowspeeders for the Rebels.

It's worth mentioning though that "Rogue One" brought some of the stuff from the prequels in. That hover tank the Stormtroopers were using when the heroes are looking for Forest Whittaker's character(whose name I can't spell without butchering) was originally introduced in the original Battlefronts and the prequel trilogy as something the clones used for ground combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:


As to upgrade cards, well, it's about what you've already seen in other FFG games, mostly.

Yes. That's the point, isn't it? A lot of "wargamers" had a taste of FFG rules with X-Wing, hence they stay away from FFG.

Fool me once and all that.

I don't know of many people who tried X-wing and didn't enjoy it, so if anything the opposite should be true.

I think Wonderwolf might be talking about the fact that X-Wing's rules are all over the place and require constant purchases to keep up with the Jones.

 Albertorius wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:


As to upgrade cards, well, it's about what you've already seen in other FFG games, mostly.

Yes. That's the point, isn't it? A lot of "wargamers" had a taste of FFG rules with X-Wing, hence they stay away from FFG.

Fool me once and all that.

Why isn't that a legitimate reason (even if it may not be a reason for you personally)?

I... don't know? Not seeing where I've said that.

OTOH, how are upgrade cards are different from options in a list, except for the fact that cards can be added more easily to already existing lists? I don't think they're that different, tbh. Maybe in a competitive environment, but even then with other games you also need to have all the books on hand when you're picking options from multiple ones, so... (for example: let's say you want to play using the new Codex: Space Marines, but you also want to field a dreadnought with linked ACs [or whatever option it's not in the codex but it is in the index, dunno, a chaplain on bike, whatever] to a tournament. You would need to carry both the codex and the index, wouldn't you?).

If anything, carrying just cards might be easier, but I don't think it's really that much of a different business model.

You don't see how including upgrade cards in unit boxes that become pretty much required for other units to function to their full potential, meaning players have to buy expensive boxes of models they may not even want just to get the appropriate cards for their army build, is a different business model to "buy a book, that's it, just buy the book"?

Carting the cards around and building decks is a mild inconvenience, it's how they propose you acquire the cards that's the problem.

 Yodhrin wrote:
You don't see how including upgrade cards in unit boxes that become pretty much required for other units to function to their full potential, meaning players have to buy expensive boxes of models they may not even want just to get the appropriate cards for their army build, is a different business model to "buy a book, that's it, just buy the book"?

Carting the cards around and building decks is a mild inconvenience, it's how they propose you acquire the cards that's the problem.

How many books did you need to build a CSM army in 40k's 7th edition? Not a "buy a book, that's it, just buy the book" model by any means. And 8th edition has started with a rulebook, Index and Codex trifecta, but expects you to buy the Chapter Approved books at the very least, and in AoS is any indication, codexes might well be getting supplements too, so... no, not seeing how is functionally different. Warmahordes also works pretty much the same, for that matter.

That said, I understand the problem of forcing you to buy units you're not interested in to get upgrade cards you want, and yes, that would be a problem in competitive play if they do it that way. I only play X-Wing with army builder lists and don't play competitively so I have not suffered that problem, has FFG done the same with other lines, say Armada or Runewars?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think Wonderwolf might be talking about the fact that X-Wing's rules are all over the place and require constant purchases to keep up with the Jones.

I see how that would be a problem if that's the case, not so much the "constant purchases" part (as I said, that's what every company strives to achieve) but rather the "buying a unit you don't want, or a unit from a different army, to get the upgrade I want". Hopefully that will be not the case, although in my case I won't notice because I wouldn't play tournaments so I wouldn't need the physical upgrade cards.

Maybe I missed it, but are the minis pre painted like xwing? I never got into Runewars, are those minis good? Will these be the same material or just board game PVC like Descent?

 Albertorius wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
You don't see how including upgrade cards in unit boxes that become pretty much required for other units to function to their full potential, meaning players have to buy expensive boxes of models they may not even want just to get the appropriate cards for their army build, is a different business model to "buy a book, that's it, just buy the book"?

Carting the cards around and building decks is a mild inconvenience, it's how they propose you acquire the cards that's the problem.

How many books did you need to build a CSM army in 40k's 7th edition? Not a "buy a book, that's it, just buy the book" model by any means.

You needed the CSM codex. It was an older book and only really got supplements towards the build-up for 8th edition.

If you, say, wanted to play in tournaments later on then yes you did require things like Traitor Legions, Crimson Slaughter, Daemons of Chaos, etc etc to be 'official' for them.
But if you want to argue that someone needed to own CSM, Traitor Legions, the other supplements, and Khorne Daemonkin(which was a full Codex, not a supplement) to field a Thousand Sons list--no. Traitor Legions contained the whole Thousand Sons list when they got redone.

And 8th edition has started with a rulebook, Index and Codex trifecta, but expects you to buy the Chapter Approved books at the very least, and in AoS is any indication, codexes might well be getting supplements too, so... no, not seeing how is functionally different. Warmahordes also works pretty much the same, for that matter.

Since we don't know what the Chapter Approved books even have in them--it's too early to say whether they are or are not required.
It's also a bit of a misrepresentation to say that 8th has started "with a rulebook, Index, and Codex trifecta".
We've gotten three Codices so far. We were told up front that Codices were coming and that the Indexes were stopgaps until then, with some stuff (like the event Space Marine models) remaining in the Index rather than getting put into a Codex.

That said, I understand the problem of forcing you to buy units you're not interested in to get upgrade cards you want, and yes, that would be a problem in competitive play if they do it that way. I only play X-Wing with army builder lists and don't play competitively so I have not suffered that problem, has FFG done the same with other lines, say Armada or Runewars?

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think Wonderwolf might be talking about the fact that X-Wing's rules are all over the place and require constant purchases to keep up with the Jones.

I see how that would be a problem if that's the case, not so much the "constant purchases" part (as I said, that's what every company strives to achieve) but rather the "buying a unit you don't want, or a unit from a different army, to get the upgrade I want". Hopefully that will be not the case, although in my case I won't notice because I wouldn't play tournaments so I wouldn't need the physical upgrade cards.

Good for you.

Not everyone likes to play with army builders, some people like owning the actual content without having to buy models to get it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Necros wrote:
Maybe I missed it, but are the minis pre painted like xwing? I never got into Runewars, are those minis good? Will these be the same material or just board game PVC like Descent?

From what's been said, they appear to be unpainted. There's a painting video for Luke that got posted in this thread.

Don't know on the material stuff.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Since we don't know what the Chapter Approved books even have in them--it's too early to say whether they are or are not required.
It's also a bit of a misrepresentation to say that 8th has started "with a rulebook, Index, and Codex trifecta".
We've gotten three Codices so far. We were told up front that Codices were coming and that the Indexes were stopgaps until then, with some stuff (like the event Space Marine models) remaining in the Index rather than getting put into a Codex.

I don't really think it is a misrepresentation at all. If anything, it is worse in the case of the indexes and the codexes. Currently, there are units that people have bought that can only be fielded as such using the indexes while the rest of the current rules are in the codex, whereas in the case of X-Wing you might not have a particular upgrade, but you will most certainly be able to field any ship of your faction that you might have bought.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Good for you.

Not everyone likes to play with army builders, some people like owning the actual content without having to buy models to get it.

I realize that, but don't see the need for the hostile tone, thank you. I have just stated my use case and said that it was indeed my personal use case. So it was implied that it was, indeed, "good for me". No further. I even have said that I saw how that could be a problem.

I keep seeing people saying that FFG does not have a license to make Star Wars boardgames.

This seems to be untrue because they make Rebellion and that is definitely a boardgame.

Also, at 30-35mm in size, the miniatures are far too large to field a "Legion".

 Albertorius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Since we don't know what the Chapter Approved books even have in them--it's too early to say whether they are or are not required.
It's also a bit of a misrepresentation to say that 8th has started "with a rulebook, Index, and Codex trifecta".
We've gotten three Codices so far. We were told up front that Codices were coming and that the Indexes were stopgaps until then, with some stuff (like the event Space Marine models) remaining in the Index rather than getting put into a Codex.

I don't really think it is a misrepresentation at all. If anything, it is worse in the case of the indexes and the codexes. Currently, there are units that people have bought that can only be fielded as such using the indexes while the rest of the current rules are in the codex, whereas in the case of X-Wing you might not have a particular upgrade, but you will most certainly be able to field any ship of your faction that you might have bought.

What units are these?

Genuinely curious, because the only things I know of are the event tie-in Marine Captains.

Unless you're implying that people playing Primaris Marines as part of the Index lists(BA, SW, DA, DW) need to buy the Codex...because they don't. The points costs for the models to be fielded in Matched Play are free downloads listed on each Primaris unit's page, with a helpful notation that the rules are available for the models within their boxes--complete with weapon statlines and everything in there.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Good for you.

Not everyone likes to play with army builders, some people like owning the actual content without having to buy models to get it.

I realize that, but don't see the need for the hostile tone, thank you. I have just stated my use case and said that it was indeed my personal use case. So it was implied that it was, indeed, "good for me". No further. I even have said that I saw how that could be a problem.

There's no "hostile tone". You made a silly comment--it doesn't have to be for a "competitive event" or a "tournament" for someone to want to have the physical item instead of a digital thing that may or may not actually even be right.

Wonderwolf wrote:

The point is that the system is set up for FFG to write rules to fill cards to add to new product to incentivise purchase. There're plenty of X-Wing expansions (Heroes of XY, Sabine's Tie, separate X-Wing, TIE-Fighter etc.. blisters replicated from the starter box, etc.. ) which dont actually have a different miniature (paint aside). They mainly sell on the virtue of the cards, and FFG writes (always, always better than the last) new rules just to fill cards that are better than the last set to get you to buy more cards. It's a CCG business model with miniatures as added bonus (and obfuscation for you getting into a CCG).

It is possible to play the game without using upgrade cards at all, printing off proxies (they are all available online), just writing the rules down on a sheet of paper, or for casual players, like me, to just buy the models they want to and build armies using only the cards they have gotten from that. The only time you NEED to buy models you don't want to get the cards is for playing in tournaments where proxies are not allowed.

With Runewars, faction specific cards are included in faction specific boxes while neutral cards are duplicated in boxes for other factions. Since the minis are unpainted, they can't release repaints, and the units are made up of multiple, identical trays of units which means that you'll end up buying multiples for most of them. The only real problem is when you end up with a unit that works best in the smallest tray size. The Reanimate Archers include a particularly good upgrade card that you'd want to use with a bunch of 2x1 units, but the valuable upgrade card didn't come in the starter box so it's possible you have a unit or two which can't have that upgrade - which is okay unless you are absolutely obsessed with minmaxing your army. Real gamers make the most out of their limitations, not whine that the limitations are preventing them from winning and having fun.

Also, it's cluttered and bloated. Somebody on the FFG forums did a wordcount of all X-Wing cards available for a single factions (Rebels I believe?) and it comes out at something like a 200 page factionrules book, plain text, no pics, etc.., for a total of 12 to 15 or so different no-options miniatures? Probably less miniature-variety on the actual table than is included in a standard box of GW Tac Marines.

Two things. First, the upgrade cards ARE the variety. Mass produced vehicles tend to be very similar looking, even when the pilots and mechanics change. Second, you don't use all 200 pages of rules every game. You only need the ones pertaining to what you are playing. They make these card binder pages that have slots for large and small cards, so that you can literally turn your rule cards into a rule book, and it will be two or three pages (with pictures).

Mitochondria wrote:
I keep seeing people saying that FFG does not have a license to make Star Wars boardgames.

This seems to be untrue because they make Rebellion and that is definitely a boardgame.

Fantasy Flight do not have the Star Wars Boardgame licence and they originally tried to get around this by claiming that Imperial Assault was a miniatures game rather than a board game. This argument didn't work and they ended up coming to an agreement with Harsbo where they are not able to sell it directly to through there own webstore though and all sales / distribution have to go through Hasbro, this makes the profit margins on it much slimmer. They then used this new agreement to make Rebellion.

See the "Not Available" on the right hand side of the product page - https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2015/11/3/star-wars-rebellion/

Mitochondria wrote:
I keep seeing people saying that FFG does not have a license to make Star Wars boardgames.

This seems to be untrue because they make Rebellion and that is definitely a boardgame.

Apparently, they admitted this at some point, which is why they considered Imperial Assault to be a miniatures game on their website (but Descent was a board game). Just before IA was released, it hit a snag where it was taken off all the websites (including FFG's) for a brief moment and the rumor was that Hasbro was blocking it because it was a board game. An agreement was apparently released and the game was released (I think the price may have been affected in some way - I think the discount given at CoolStuffInc and MiniatureMarket shrunk after the game reappeared). This is based of my own memory of events and could be way off.

Here's a BGG thread about it, but I haven't read it yet.

However, this was before Disney bought LucasFilm, so it is entirely possible that deals were renegotiated before the release of Rebellion - or it could be that whatever deal they made to release IA was extended to Rebellion. The real question is, if FFG has to share profits with Hasbro for IA, will they drop it in favor of Legion, which they don't?

 Sqorgar wrote:
It is possible to play the game without using upgrade cards at all, printing off proxies (they are all available online), just writing the rules down on a sheet of paper, or for casual players, like me, to just buy the models they want to and build armies using only the cards they have gotten from that. The only time you NEED to buy models you don't want to get the cards is for playing in tournaments where proxies are not allowed.

That's true for any and all games and every criticism of any game or company ever voiced on Dakka. Of course there are always ways to pirate around stuff or ignore it entirely.

I don't need 40K codexes and can happily wing it on BattleScribe and pdfs from dodgy corners of the internet. I don't need to make a fuss about AoS and can happily continue to play WFB for eternity. I don't need to worry about Mantic/CMONs/whatever minis being oddly different from their Kickstarter-presentation or Kickstarter exclusives being unavailable as one can simply proxy some other products. I don't need to pay ForgeWorld prices when I can get some Russian recasts, etc.., etc..


Not sure that should be the benchmark for discussing merits and flaws of what these companies choose to present to their customers.