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As much as I like X-Wing, and am desiring to play the Armada I own, I think I'm going to have to pass on this game.

I still have my WEG metal minis (and the Star Wars miniatures rules) and my WOtC minis (and its random booster and HORRIFIC rules). I passed on Imperial Assault (as I haven't even gotten to play my Descent 1.0 series past the 2nd main box mission), and I just dumped a bunch of money into both Runewars and 40K 8E. If I wasn't so overbooked already - or maybe further down the road - I might pick up the base game.

The one thing I've been having to learn is not to attempt to be a completionist; that's just too hard on the budget. I think a lot of folks will casually get into this game, buying just the base set - maybe a certain expansion or two. For every completionist on here, I'm betting there will be ten or more folks who just pick the base game and run with that.

 Stormonu wrote:
The one thing I've been having to learn is not to attempt to be a completionist

Holy gak this. And FFG really, really pokes that "you need everything" button for me. This is one of the major reasons I am reluctant to buy anything beyond the RW core box.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Spoiler:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Star Wars miniatures game - will make a stupid amount of money. X-Wing and Armada combined, and then some. Everyone wants to play Darth Vader on the table.

but queue Dakka standard response to ANY announcement: "well if it was only some very specific XYZ I would have spent my life savings on it, but now I'll have to give it a pass"

The issue is that FFG essentially already make this game, and have done for several years. Unless somehow moving from tiles and squares to inches and tabletops radically changes people's attitudes, irrespective of any changes in mechanics, you've been able to play a one on one Star Wars battle game of this scale and similar scope for some time and, IME at least, nobody is. So unless something emerges that really changes the playing field, I just can't see much to get excited about.

LOL Necromunda / 40k

Mordhiem / WHFB

Bolt Action / Flames of War

ridiculous.

Your counter to "they already make a game which appears to offer a similar experience" is to list a bunch of games which very obviously offer something different from each other?

Hmmmm...]

You're right, Necromunda is way too similar to 40k, versus a Star Wars grid board game :: a freeform miniatures game. A more apt comparison would be Gorechosen and Age of Sigmar.

One is played on a board with tokens and cards and miniatures, and the other is played on a tabletop with tokens and cards and miniatures.

Blimey, a post attacking the whole forum, to a weak argument to snarky BS in just three posts. I think I'll go and find more engaging discussion elsewhere, this isn't going anywhere.

 TalonZahn wrote:


[Edit] Oh, thank God Judge is here to pile in. For the record, Judge, those are Skirmish level games, LIKE IMPERIAL ASSAULT, so, thanks for that.

So is this one...

 Albertorius wrote:

As far as I know, a unit of Stormtroopers is a unit of Stormtroopers. You don't need multiple unit cards to field multiple stormtrooper units.

I hope so. But as Manchu said, that would be expecting FFG to not be FFG-up things again.

@manchu

Not expecting it to be free. I'll happily pay good money for, to use the GW comparison again, an "Index-Style-Book". Hardcover, full colour. GIve it to me. Same for X-Wing, etc.. . Give me a nice bound tome with all the rules ever published for all "Rebels", doing away with the need for those fiddly cards, and I might come back.


And as I said above, I understand how FFG does business and how their model served them well with their board games. I also made the argument how it (in my humble armchair-CEO opinion) fails them at getting into wargames, as they can't get that critical mass of an active gaming scene started (despite having a good number of people with potentially easy ready to go miniatures in a box, ready to go).

You are right. The only thing stopping ME from using IA miniatures is me. I believe I have thehobby and ebay skills to make them work, should I choose to.

But, (armchair CEO speaking again), the thing stopping FFG from making truly major inroads into wargaming is to make it as easy as humanly possible for all those people with IA miniature collections to do the same, which would in turn kickstart that critical mass for "active wargaming community". Maybe the Star Wars license is good enough to prevent this from not turning into other Runewars Miniatures game. Maybe it is not.

For me, I am not sure I want to go into the effort of ebaying unit cards for my IA miniatures for a test game or two (before being 40K-style hooked and starting to oogle pricey Forge World things for my 4th army) for a game I cannot, at this point, see having a reasonably sized active player base.

Stay on target, folks. Let's keep it civil and on topic, k, thks?

Well, I think it will prove a serious competitor to GW, regardless of how good it is, because - Star Wars. That will get and keep people playing even if the game and minis are not all that great, and attract others more readily that might not have considered such a game at all, because its Star Wars.

But time will tell. I have my doubts on FFG writing good rules, as the core of X-Wing/Armada is not theirs. And Rune Wars has been a total flop locally.

I'm probably out on this, but mainly because I am not looking for any more new systems. It is going to be interesting times, though. To quote Supreme Leader Snoke "We shall see...We shall see...'

 insaniak wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:


[Edit] Oh, thank God Judge is here to pile in. For the record, Judge, those are Skirmish level games, LIKE IMPERIAL ASSAULT, so, thanks for that.

So is this one...

Ohh, another Mod.

You missed some part of the conversation, because you missed the point of that comment.

Wonderwolf,

I have seen a lot of declaration that RW has failed. I saw a lot of the same about Age of Sigmar. The truth is, just like it was about Age of Sigmar, that these declarations tend to be premature and self-serving. Let's come back to RW once all four factions are up and running. Setting up a miniatures game product line from scratch merits giving it some time before a unilateral declaration of success or failure.

You might say, that doesn't matter because without [critical mass] of players, the game cannot go anywhere regardless of product that eventually might get released. Well again, the same was said about AoS - apparently "no one" was playing it, according to many anecdotal reports. Some people still insist that no one plays AoS. Again, it fits their agenda.

RW does indeed face an uphill battle, not only because it is a miniatures game product line starting completely from nothing, but also because it is a relatively unknown and extremely generic IP. SW Legion won't have these problems. The miniatures that come out will be in large part instantly recognizable and desirable to a wide range of people, some of whom may not even currently think of themselves as table top gamers.

If cards and proprietary dice were the limiting factors, X-Wing should be a failure. But it's not. There's also no real basis for calling either Armada or Imperial Assault failures.

I think, when it comes to the existing miniatures wargaming market, companies are up against a lot of inherent conservatism.

Kind of unsure about this game, the models look okay (but I do want to see them unpainted on a sprue first). The rules maybe the deciding thing for me. With Necromunda and Shadespire coming out I can't afford to do everything. Not enough time or money. And I know Shadespire is likely to be a much better deal than the price FFG is setting for this Legion game. Whereas Necromunda just oozes style and more character than a generic Star Wars kit like this can.

Gonna have to see how committed to this game FFG is. The starter is cool but i'm not sure how much replayability you'll get out of the box. I may wait to see the first wave of expansions so I could see what FFGs real plans for the game are.

I had never really thought about it but doing terrain/boards for a SW type game might be kind of difficult. Mostly because Star Wars involves a certain element of realism that 40k and AoS don't really require. If anything this game might be better played on one of those nice mats, with a few handmade terrain things here and there.

If this had been epic scale or 10mm I'd have dived in regardless of their silly card and cardboard obsession. It probably would have languished like my Armada but I'd have bought. at 28mm it's just another game I have zero desire to play. Especially now that 8th ed 40k is out.

Thargrim,

I doubt the parts will be on a sprue. RW figs come in pieces packaged in baggies.

As for expansions, for sure there will be:

- storm trooper box
- rebel commando box
- speeder bike box
- AT-RT box
- dice
- movement tool

 Manchu wrote:
Wonderwolf,

I have seen a lot of declaration that RW has failed. I saw a lot of the same about Age of Sigmar. The truth is, just like it was about Age of Sigmar, that these declarations tend to be premature and self-serving. Let's come back to RW once all four factions are up and running. Setting up a miniatures game product line from scratch merits giving it some time before a unilateral declaration of success or failure.

You might say, that doesn't matter because without [critical mass] of players, the game cannot go anywhere regardless of product that eventually might get released. Well again, the same was said about AoS - apparently "no one" was playing it, according to many anecdotal reports. Some people still insist that no one plays AoS. Again, it fits their agenda.

RW does indeed face an uphill battle, not only because it is a miniatures game product line starting completely from nothing, but also because it is a relatively unknown and extremely generic IP. SW Legion won't have these problems. The miniatures that come out will be in large part instantly recognizable and desirable to a wide range of people, some of whom may not even currently think of themselves as table top gamers.

If cards and proprietary dice were the limiting factors, X-Wing should be a failure. But it's not. There's also no real basis for calling either Armada or Imperial Assault failures.

I think, when it comes to the existing miniatures wargaming market, companies are up against a lot of inherent conservatism.

I think the over promotion of Rune Wars made its initial receptions seem lackluster in comparison. I mean the amount of copies FFG gave away at adepticon, giving away a free copy to anybody with a youtube channel. FFG pushed Rune Wars hard out of nowhere. It will take time to see where Rune Wars actually goes.

Oh and Wonderwolf, Imperial Assault is a Dungeon Crawler Board game that had a Skirmish mode shoehorned into it to try to hide the fact that FFG didn't have the rights to make a Star Wars Boardgame.

Legion looks interesting (mostly because WotC Star Wars Minis is what got me into miniatures gaming so a ground based Star Wars game is right up my alley. I have no interest in dog fights, so X-Wing does nothing for me)

Imperial assault is actually an awesome skirmish game. Granted, it took them a lot of time, errata, and upgrade cards to get to that point, but it's an excellent game now. Skirmish is better than the campaign actually.

It's problem is that it's probably the most expensive offering from FFG to play competitively, and everyone needs to have the three maps in rotation to play a tournament.

Hoping they will match the rest of my sci fi collection but my initial thought is they will be too tall.... :(

alphaecho wrote:


Can I cheat and dig out my old West End Games lead miniatures?

I might even get around to finally painting them!

You cheapskate luddite! On to a more important and totally different question... can I cheat and bolster my forces by digging out my old Star Wars Minis prepainted miniatures by sharing cards?

 Digclaw wrote:


Oh and Wonderwolf, Imperial Assault is a Dungeon Crawler Board game that had a Skirmish mode shoehorned into it to try to hide the fact that FFG didn't have the rights to make a Star Wars Boardgame.

I keep hearing this "FFG isn't allowed to make Star Wars board games" but simply cannot square it with games like Star Wars Rebellion.

Imperial Assault, even without the Skirmish option (which is fun at times, though balance is horrible), is a lot less of a board game than something like this...



Is there a source for "FFG isn't allowed to do board games'?

I have not been able to find a source.

It is interesting however that Imperial Assault is listed as a miniatures game while Descent is listed as a board game.

But then, Rebellion is listed as a board game, too. Just speculating but perhaps IA was an attempt to tiptoe around this but Hasbro objected anyway, which caused FFG to negotiate a deal with Hasbro allowing for Rebellion. Again, to be clear, pure speculation.

Take my money!

I just fear that FFG is becoming the Ubisoft of the table-top world, making the same game over and over again with a different skin with the old slight variations or tweak.

I mean this is just another game using their made-up dice, cards and, no doubt, a billion fething counters.

And not making the miniatures compatible with IA is just a dick move. They could include rules for all released IA models in the main rulebook (or with cards... whatever) and sell even more IA stuff.

Here's a reality i'm embracing for the moment...

A HUGE part of the viability of a miniatures game is install-base/community. I'd argue its almost even more important than fundamental design, as I have seen amazing games die/languish without reaching a critical-mass of players, while some very mediocre games flourish.

To that ends, its a given that Legion will be a massive "success" at least in that initial metric.

I also accept the fact that I LOVED 40k during 7th Edition, even while acknowledging as a designer and fan, that it was a pretty TERRIBLE game. The rules were just shameful, and clumsy, unclear rules, may have been as much an issue as Fantasy Flight's wall 'o cards, and proprietary dice.

And yet... I loved, and still love 40k (much more-so now as I am loving 8th competitively and casually alike... but I digress).

To that end, as I am a huge fan of this hobby, and increasingly make my living in this industry as well, I feel like I will be giving Legion at least its fair shot to win me over first hand. Its sales almost guarantee it will be a factor in this industry next year, so they have my cautious, cautious, attention.

And honestly, while it is a good chunk of change, I pre-ordered a couple of these sets, and was still set back the equivalent of a few 40k unit boxes... so it isn't as if I am going to go hungry trying to test run the game.

some more pics courtesy gencon attendees:

Though the model scale is larger than I hoped, and the fact that it uses upgrade cards (yes, I was foolish to hope either wouldn't be the case with FFG, but a man can dream), I'm still interested in this. I just hope the average game is no larger than 8-10 units per side, otherwise upgrade cards will get a bit unwieldy on the side table.

I also hope this means we're getting plastic terrain from FFG, would be disappointing if we didn't.

At the moment, I might pick up a starter set, ditch the rules and play Blasters and Bulkheads with the minis. Any "expansion sets" will likely be too expensive to bother with, though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I just fear that FFG is becoming the Ubisoft of the table-top world, making the same game over and over again with a different skin with the old slight variations or tweak.

I mean this is just another game using their made-up dice, cards and, no doubt, a billion fething counters.

This is a meme that should die out already. FFG comes from a board game background and ALL board games are like this right now. Looking on my shelf, literally everything has unique dice, cards, and counters. Heck, even miniature games are going that way. Warmachine (cards, counters), Walking Dead: All Out War (cards, counters, dice), Deadzone (cards, counters), Infinity (counters), and even Shadow War: Armageddon (counters, dice) all have their fair share.

Second, FFG personally accounts for a significant part of the miniature gaming field right now with X-Wing, Armada, Imperial Assault, Runewars, and now Star Wars Legion. X-Wing is stupidly popular and brought as lot of people into miniature gaming. FFG is no longer a pretender dabbling in the field and is now one of the two leaders in the field. I, personally, think that miniature gamers aren't giving them the recognition they deserve, and they are by no means making the same game over and over again. These games share similar mechanics, but they are used in different ways and play very different in practice - more different than Age of Sigmar and 40k 8th Edition or Warmachine and Hordes, which really are making the same game over and over again.

EDIT - Ha, even AoS's new General's Handbook special edition comes with a bunch of cards and counters, not to mention FFG-like dials. You can't escape it.

 Manchu wrote:

Looking real good, really liking the look of how the game is going to play.

Some notes from the vid:

black dice (rebel blasters) are better than white dice (storm trooper blasters)
cover reduces uncancelled hits against targets by one
cover cannot cancel critical hits
there are offensive and defensive surge abilities
storm troopers only have offensive surge abilities (can change surges to hits)
rebel troopers only have defensive surge abilities (can change surges to defends)
the red and white defense dice are d6s
red defense dice is better than white
storm troopers use red and rebel troopers use white defense dice
range measurment tool is four-part disassemblable stick
movement tools at short and medium distance each have two straight sections connected by one pivot
units have cover if at least half of the figs in the unit have cover
command tokens/unit categories are core, support, and command
vehicles have firing arcs
move is the only action that a unit can take twice during an activation
vehicles moving together in a squad must end movement with their firing arcs oriented in the same way
like movement, unit firing range is measured from leader
There are levels of terrain. Luke has "Jump 1."
an aim token allows you to reroll 2 blank firing results
storm troopers have special rule "precise" which allows them to roll one further blank when use aim token

Why wouldn't storm troopers have better blasters than rebels?

I am really loving this game.