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So you take turns activating units. And either you activate a unitwith an order or activate a random unit of yours that hasn't activated yet.

 Vertrucio wrote:
A while ago I read how FFG has lost a lawsuit in regards to Imperial Assault, and how it's too much like a boardgame license that some other big company had exclusive rights to. So now FFG has to pay through the nose to sub-license the boardgame rights.

I suspect the only reason why this exists now is that they get to reuse all the IA miniatures in wargame form.

Otherwise, Wargaming of this style isn't exactly the most popular thing.

Hasbro owns the rights to "Star Wars Board Games" aka slap a SW skin on Monopoly or Clue and call it a day.

 Manchu wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
I think this is more what several people had in mind would be coming.

You're kidding right???

Yea, it's completely unreasonable to think that a company pushing more and more into miniatures games would release an actual miniatures game that didn't require piles of cards for upgrades and commands, and dice only for that game.

OK so with your clarification above, the cards are played to (a) determine priority and (b) issue non-random order tokens.

During the Activation Phase, you can choose to activate units with face-up order tokens or draw random order tokens to activate units of the corresponding type?

Wow.. really surprised at the poor initial reception here, and can't believe I actually read a 'Meh' !

It's .. a star wars tabletop game! Star Wars!

Other than Aliens (.. although probably best not to go down the route that that one turned out!), nor really sure there is anything that I have looked forward to as much in terms of a miniature wargame release.

The rebels look lovely, the Stormtroopers are .. well Stormtroopers, they are basic by definition, but these look close enough to me.

Am definitely willing to wait to see how the rules turn out, although FFG have had more hits than misses of the games I have played so I am hopeful that it won;t be rubbish at least. Love X-Wing, haven't played Armada (although have watched some games, and guys at my local club swear it's the best thing since sliced bread), Descent was good for what it was, although I found it a bit bloated and for some reason it seemed to bring out the beardyness of people I played it with (perhaps put me off IA for the same reason..)

But I've already started thinking about going through my Ralph McQuarrie art collection and wondering about what kind of special terrain set-up might be possible.

As a wargamer, and some that enjoys terrain and imagination in games, I'm so looking forward to this! And it's not a damned KS as well so don't have to wait 18 months for it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sounds like Orders are bonuses of some kind that apply when the unit activates later that turn. Like you have Darth Vader tell his Storm Troopers to Aim. Then when they activate, they have an Aim token to spend that round.

Hm, not really. By way of example, there's a command card only eligible if you have Vader in your army, called "Master of Evil". It's Priority 3 pips, but it allows you to give orders to Vader and 2 other units, and it has þe following additional rule:

When Darth Vader is issued an order, he gains 1 dodge token. When Darth Vader activates, each enemy trooper unit at range 1–2 of him gains 3 suppression tokens.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Yea, it's completely unreasonable to think that a company pushing more and more into miniatures games would release an actual miniatures game that didn't require piles of cards for upgrades and commands, and dice only for that game.

That is the worst example of sarcasm I have ever come across in my life, considering the company in question is Fantasy Flight Games.

 Manchu wrote:
OK so with your clarification above, the cards are played to (a) determine priority and (b) issue non-random order tokens.

During the Activation Phase, you can choose to activate units with face-up order tokens or draw random order tokens to activate units of the corresponding type?

Yep, exactly that.

 Manchu wrote:

 Digclaw wrote:
a Star Wars Mass battle would have cannibalized their market for Rune Wars

This is going to happen regardless. Obviously, RW is a very different game from SW Legion but the commonality is target demographic: would-be mini gamers. I think more of them are going to be drawn to the SW brand. Fortunately, RW's release schedule is already in full swing for four factions, unlike poor Battlelore Second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So, yeah, I'm on notice.

I should be, too.

Bought tons of X-Wing, loved it.

Bought tons of Armada, had no fun, sold it.

Bought tons of Imperial Assault, had no fun, sold it.

Bought the RW core set, played once, it's okay, not sure if I want to buy anymore.

So the track record isn't exactly phenomenal here. But I can't and won't pretend I'm not excited about this. I have been waiting for something like this for so long.

That's the danger with anything based on a major property though.. (anyone who played CCGs in the 90s saw all of this play out already). I was really excited about all the Halo stuff that came out from Spartan.. hell I've been excited about a lot of things in the gaming world over the last couple of years. I will likely pick this up but between this and all the neat looking Kickstarters and rehashes of nostalgia gaming.. I think I might have hit the point where I have to step back and start becoming more discerning..

Completely agree with your assessments (for the ones I've tried). Proprietary dice and fiddly cards are why at least 3 of my recent games are just gathering dust. For some reason these games tend to also have at least one or two mechanics that are needlessly complicated and I think it just adds up into some kind of mental block pushing me back towards a game that has at least one less of those things for me to process.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Vertrucio wrote:
A while ago I read how FFG has lost a lawsuit in regards to Imperial Assault, and how it's too much like a boardgame license that some other big company had exclusive rights to. So now FFG has to pay through the nose to sub-license the boardgame rights.

I suspect the only reason why this exists now is that they get to reuse all the IA miniatures in wargame form.

Otherwise, Wargaming of this style isn't exactly the most popular thing.

Hasbro owns the rights to "Star Wars Board Games" aka slap a SW skin on Monopoly or Clue and call it a day.

FFG does plenty of Star Wars games. some of which are lot board-gamier than Imperial Assault, e.g. Star Wars Rebellion (published quite a bit after IA).

I guess collectible dice and card games don't even count here.

But board games in particular got hit hard by this. I think anything from IA and Rebellion is just stuff they're finishing up.

As for this game, rushed though it may be, has some interesting elements. I've posted before in these forums I've wanted to use boardgame style components and mechanics to spice up games. Although, probably not to the level that FFG plans to.

Unfortunately the model quality kind of isn't there. So much is up in the air I'd want to see more. Let's hope some videos and detailed previews start popping up.

Overall though, this is a missed opportunity to have a mass battle game at like 15mm, so you can have Clone Wars level fights.

 Manchu wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Yea, it's completely unreasonable to think that a company pushing more and more into miniatures games would release an actual miniatures game that didn't require piles of cards for upgrades and commands, and dice only for that game.

That is the worst example of sarcasm I have ever come across in my life, considering the company in question is Fantasy Flight Games.

Well, then you better Exhalt and Siggy that gak.

You're just being disingenuous about what FFG appears to be doing with their lines recently

 TalonZahn wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Yea, it's completely unreasonable to think that a company pushing more and more into miniatures games would release an actual miniatures game that didn't require piles of cards for upgrades and commands, and dice only for that game.

That is the worst example of sarcasm I have ever come across in my life, considering the company in question is Fantasy Flight Games.

Well, then you better Exhalt and Siggy that gak.

You're just being disingenuous about what FFG appears to be doing with their lines recently

Don't lose hope. If GW was able to kick its atrocious social media and community engagement policy (something FFG has done very well in the past with store events, etc.), there is hope FFG might one day kick its atrocious "we write "rules" to make money, not to actually play fun games"-policy.

Sadly, it seems like it didn't (yet!) happen with Star Wars Legion.

 TalonZahn wrote:
You're just being disingenuous about what FFG appears to be doing with their lines recently

In what way?

Please see:

 Manchu wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Yea, it's completely unreasonable to think that a company pushing more and more into miniatures games would release an actual miniatures game that didn't require piles of cards for upgrades and commands, and dice only for that game.

That is the worst example of sarcasm I have ever come across in my life, considering the company in question is Fantasy Flight Games.

C'mon Manchu, it's unreasonable that ANY miniatures wargame would use TOKENS and CARDS

By claiming ignorance that they aren't moving deeper into miniatures games, away from board games. Then using that feigned ignorance to say that no one should have expected them to make a miniatures game not requiring piles of cards and special dice. (Which are more suited to a boardgame than a tabletop miniatures game)

Now, for 2 reasons you and I are going to stop; its' becoming off-topic, and two, it's not getting anywhere since it appears you just want me to chance my tail by being.....disingenuous.

You can PM me if you *really* want to talk about it more.

[Edit] Oh, thank God Judge is here to pile in. For the record, Judge, those are Skirmish level games, LIKE IMPERIAL ASSAULT, so, thanks for that.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Star Wars miniatures game - will make a stupid amount of money. X-Wing and Armada combined, and then some. Everyone wants to play Darth Vader on the table.

but queue Dakka standard response to ANY announcement: "well if it was only some very specific XYZ I would have spent my life savings on it, but now I'll have to give it a pass"

The issue is that FFG essentially already make this game, and have done for several years. Unless somehow moving from tiles and squares to inches and tabletops radically changes people's attitudes, irrespective of any changes in mechanics, you've been able to play a one on one Star Wars battle game of this scale and similar scope for some time and, IME at least, nobody is. So unless something emerges that really changes the playing field, I just can't see much to get excited about.

LOL Necromunda / 40k

Mordhiem / WHFB

Bolt Action / Flames of War

ridiculous.

Your counter to "they already make a game which appears to offer a similar experience" is to list a bunch of games which very obviously offer something different from each other?

Hmmmm...

 Azreal13 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Star Wars miniatures game - will make a stupid amount of money. X-Wing and Armada combined, and then some. Everyone wants to play Darth Vader on the table.

but queue Dakka standard response to ANY announcement: "well if it was only some very specific XYZ I would have spent my life savings on it, but now I'll have to give it a pass"

The issue is that FFG essentially already make this game, and have done for several years. Unless somehow moving from tiles and squares to inches and tabletops radically changes people's attitudes, irrespective of any changes in mechanics, you've been able to play a one on one Star Wars battle game of this scale and similar scope for some time and, IME at least, nobody is. So unless something emerges that really changes the playing field, I just can't see much to get excited about.

LOL Necromunda / 40k

Mordhiem / WHFB

Bolt Action / Flames of War

ridiculous.

Your counter to "they already make a game which appears to offer a similar experience" is to list a bunch of games which very obviously offer something different from each other?

Hmmmm...

You're right, Necromunda is way too similar to 40k, versus a Star Wars grid board game :: a freeform miniatures game. A more apt comparison would be Gorechosen and Age of Sigmar.

One is played on a board with tokens and cards and miniatures, and the other is played on a tabletop with tokens and cards and miniatures.

 TalonZahn wrote:
claiming ignorance that they aren't moving deeper into miniatures games, away from board games

They literally aren't. RW and Legions are both crossover products. Like X-Wing and Armada. All of these games use tons of components, cards, and proprietary dice. Nothing FFG has published, whether in terms of board games or miniatures games, could lead anyone to reasonably believe they intend to back away from card upgrades and proprietary dice.

 judgedoug wrote:


You're right, Necromunda is way too similar to 40k, versus a Star Wars grid board game :: a freeform miniatures game. A more apt comparison would be Gorechosen and Age of Sigmar.

Not really. You can use Gorechosen in AoS and a range of AoS miniatures not in the Gorechosen box for Gorechosen.

GW has made it a point to cross-promote miniatures between games: Space Hulk/Overkill/stupid-flyer-game to 40K, Gorechosen/Silver Tower to AoS. Etc..

Blood Bowl and Necromunda are perhaps the better comparison, as they, mostly due to legacy, have the same barrier to taking your miniatures over to the other game. A barrier FFG creates needlessly.

If they'd follow a GW example and publish an "Index: Rebels", an "Index: Imperium" and an "Index: Scum" with all the rules for all existing Imperial Assault (and even better West End) miniatures, they'd immediately be kickstarting the gaming scene for Star Wars Legion they failed to do with the Runewars Miniatures game.


Creating "the gaming scene" is so crucial to wargames, and while it happend with X-Wing, FFG has IMO struggled to repeat it since.

There is no need to have an active gaming scene for things like Imperial Assault or Star Wars Rebels. Only one person needs a copy. When you have a group that wants to play, you break out the box.

Doesn't work that way with wargames, and that is (IMO) one of the reasons FFG wargames (pre and post X-Wing) have struggled.

Don't care what it's like, SOLD! If it's like X-wing and Armada with few and far releases with new cards even better gives me chance to save some extra cash.

Wonderwolf wrote:
You can use Gorechosen in AoS and a range of AoS miniatures not in the Gorechosen box for Gorechosen.

What would stop you from using IA figs in Legion?

These miniatures appear to be better sculpted and of much more consistent quality than IA. They remind me of Mantic's Walking Dead figures.

Here's hoping that's true and that the scale remains consistent as well.

As it is, I'll be getting the base set at least.

~Eric

Wonderwolf wrote:
Not really. You can use Gorechosen in AoS and a range of AoS miniatures not in the Gorechosen box for Gorechosen.

So, one argument is that

- Star Wars Miniatures Game is too similar to Star Wars Board Game

and the other argument is

- Star Wars miniatures Game is not similar enough to Star Wars Board Game

 Manchu wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:
You can use Gorechosen in AoS and a range of AoS miniatures not in the Gorechosen box for Gorechosen.

What would stop you from using IA figs in Legion?

Presumably (if it's like Descent > Runewars) no rules available for most of them and rules only available in the boxes with the miniatures I'd have to buy again.

If I want to field 20 Descent skeleton warriors, there is no way to get the needed rules (cards, tokens, etc..) than to buy 20 runewars skeletons.

If I want to field 20 Descent goblins .. no rules at all.


Of course, things could be different for Star Wars. Maybe there will be rules pdf downloads and/or "8th-Edition-Index"-style books. But I doubt that at the moment.

 Taarnak wrote:
They remind me of Mantic's Walking Dead figures.

Interesting comparison. One thing that really helps these Legion minis is having 6-7 different sculpts rather than buying a box of three dudes all in the same pose.

 Manchu wrote:

 Taarnak wrote:
They remind me of Mantic's Walking Dead figures.

Interesting comparison. One thing that really helps these Legion minis is having 6-7 different sculpts rather than buying a box of three dudes all in the same pose.

True. Not having to do as much converting is also appealing.

Wonderwolf -

If there are no rules for a certain fig in Legion then there is no issue about that fig's portability into Legion. Sure, I doubt FFG will give away rules for free; no more so than a gas station will give away gas for free. GW sometimes publishes support in WD to add value to WD (which is otherwise an antiquated advertisement) and encourage people to buy more figs. FFG's business is oriented differently. Unlike GW, they have always been about selling games. They are not using rules to push miniatures sales. The miniatures and the rules go together for them.

So to the extent that you want to play Legion and you have some IA figs for which you have the Legion rules (like storm troopers and rebel commandos), the only thing holding you back from using them is ... you.

Going one step further and expecting Legion to be free because you bought a separate game is silly.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:
You can use Gorechosen in AoS and a range of AoS miniatures not in the Gorechosen box for Gorechosen.

What would stop you from using IA figs in Legion?

Presumably (if it's like Descent > Runewars) no rules available for most of them and rules only available in the boxes with the miniatures I'd have to buy again.

If I want to field 20 Descent skeleton warriors, there is no way to get the needed rules (cards, tokens, etc..) than to buy 20 runewars skeletons.

If I want to field 20 Descent goblins .. no rules at all.


Of course, things could be different for Star Wars. Maybe there will be rules pdf downloads and/or "8th-Edition-Index"-style books. But I doubt that at the moment.

As far as I know, a unit of Stormtroopers is a unit of Stormtroopers. You don't need multiple unit cards to field multiple stormtrooper units. If anything, you'd just need one token of the troop type for each fielded unit.

I'll keep an eye on this, but I was really hoping for more Epic Star Wars and less Star Wars 40K for the game's scale. Special dice, tokens, and cards don't bother me at all.